Plz tell me about To Shin Do Home Study Course

Drac

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Messages
22,738
Reaction score
143
Location
Ohio
Did anyone else notice the surge of 'one post wonders' on the forum, asking others' opinions about some great DVD/Video/Book/Equipment they just purchased??

Yep...

Could it be that this wasn't a genuine request for information, but a stealth-mode commercial for whatever lame DVD/Video/Book/Equipment they just purchased??

Sort of, but they didnt actually name what system they purchased

What if from now on we all agreed to respond to any similar future request with the simple response that ANY DVD/Video/Book/Equipment is a total waste of time and money without having FIRST had a qualified instructor?

Works for me...
 

JadecloudAlchemist

Master of Arts
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
1,877
Reaction score
82
Location
Miami,Florida
In the days before these home study course people would travel to the art they wanted to study. I don't drive but I still find a way to my lesson in another county. I walk an 1 hour to my lesson. Before that I had to travel to the next state for a mere 4 hours of training. Before that I traveled to Japan to study.

So I hear the excuse of those who study by Home study course of no teacher in there location I can only think of those who put in the effort to go train with a person.

A video or book is only as useful as the person who understands the material being presented. Meaning if you have no working knowlege of the art the body movement will be hard to adjust and correct.

I have said it before that because the videos can only show a certain amount the actual angle,weight,alignment,foot position may be incorrect.
Though it looks like it the posture may be incorrect.
I have plenty of DVD's even of the same art I study for me they only act as a refresher of material. But I guess in this day and age this was bond to happen I wish you the best of luck in your training.
 

KevinCasey

White Belt
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
I've seen a couple of models for success in the To-Shin Do home study course.

One is to train diligently, but travel to a Quest Center every two to four months for feedback. I have a couple of very successful skilled guys right now who drive 500 miles to see me on that kind of schedule. I give them a ton of stuff to work on - way more than they can implement in their brief visit - and they take lots of notes and use the videos to reference the details and jog their memory.

The other successful model I have seen is to post YouTube videos of specific techniques periodically and get feedback from the To-Shin Do community. Obviously, a bit of bravery is required, since you might get negative comments from the Internet at large - but if you can filter past that, many of the teachers and students in To-Shin Do are happy to give pointers.

Being of the SKHQuest forums is also very helpful to find loads of To-Shin Do folks. I don't see nearly as many elsewhere.
 

RRepster

Yellow Belt
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
44
Reaction score
0
"Having said all the above I am not in favor of home study courses, online training, etc. Truthfully I feel they in general are money makers and leave students practicing them in the dark."

That's funny. I hear my sifu Ken Gullette (www.internalfightingarts.com) pretty clearly on the telephone during our class conference calls and we all see him pretty clearly when he reviews our videos we make and critiques us. There's also plenty of chances to spend time with him and his local class whenever we want to visit which many of us do a few times a year for comprehensive one on one training.

I think you fail to understand the "program" or "course" part of "home study program." As others said its not just buy a dvd or d/load a lesson then get the belt in six weeks. Also we don't all live in a major metropolitan area where there's a dojo on every other street to choose from. So we utilize what technology has made available to us. Fortunately we have more than rice paper scrolls today like the legendary masters of old used to use to pass on knowledge.

From what I have seen online Hayes' Toshindo program is very comprehensive and you can get out of it whatever you put in and there is more to his program than just some videos. If that's all you want, fine, if you want more there is more. I think it's pretty pricy but I think you can order one dvd to review at least to decide for yourself whether its worth the whole program.
 

RRepster

Yellow Belt
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
44
Reaction score
0
In the days before these home study course people would travel to the art they wanted to study. I don't drive but I still find a way to my lesson in another county. I walk an 1 hour to my lesson. Before that I had to travel to the next state for a mere 4 hours of training. Before that I traveled to Japan to study.

So I hear the excuse of those who study by Home study course of no teacher in there location I can only think of those who put in the effort to go train with a person.

You are assuming that home study course people don't travel as well. People in my internal arts school both submit videos for evaluations and occasionally meet in person with Sifu. The dvd's and online vids. Merely give us what to practice on. If I wanted to study Toshindo I'd pick up the HSP in a heartbeat then I'd occassionally (likely 1 or 2x a month) travel to a Toshindo school I know of that is a couple hours away to supplement that. My Kung Fu sifu is a 10 hour drive away yet I'm planning on a weekend trip to do see him. You get out of anything what you put into it, and that goes for HSP and traditional dojo's/dojangs/kwans.

A video or book is only as useful as the person who understands the material being presented. Meaning if you have no working knowlege of the art the body movement will be hard to adjust and correct.
hard but not impossible, it's hard in a traditional classroom too. I've been learning Kung Fu chen style internal arts that way which I'm sure you know is radically different than the TKD I'm used to.

I have said it before that because the videos can only show a certain amount the actual angle,weight,alignment,foot position may be incorrect.
questions on your forum, telephone, and video evals can answer that. Case in point: I noticed on my Hsing-I 1. dvd the other day that some students had their feet positioned differently in the san-ti stance than others. So I (gasp) asked on the online school forum what was correct. The answer was as I suspected - they all had it right, little nuiances are not important as long as they are grounded and both feet foreward like I thought one clip looked like the feet were would unbalance you. It took all of 5 minutes to get my answer no joke. I have no doubt that Hayes' Toshindo instructors on their home study course forums can answer their questions as well. But if a "course" has no evaluation methods or contact with instructors then it's nothing more than a referance video or book and likely you can get a far cheaper solution at ebay or Amazon.
 

RRepster

Yellow Belt
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
44
Reaction score
0
I've seen a couple of models for success in the To-Shin Do home study course.

One is to train diligently, but travel to a Quest Center every two to four months for feedback. I have a couple of very successful skilled guys right now who drive 500 miles to see me on that kind of schedule. I give them a ton of stuff to work on - way more than they can implement in their brief visit - and they take lots of notes and use the videos to reference the details and jog their memory.

The other successful model I have seen is to post YouTube videos of specific techniques periodically and get feedback from the To-Shin Do community. Obviously, a bit of bravery is required, since you might get negative comments from the Internet at large - but if you can filter past that, many of the teachers and students in To-Shin Do are happy to give pointers.

Being of the SKHQuest forums is also very helpful to find loads of To-Shin Do folks. I don't see nearly as many elsewhere.

Bingo. Exactly Kevin. Bottom line, a person gets out of anything what they put into them. DVD's and online video capability have merely just added another way to practice at home which we are supposed to do even when a member of any dojo/jang/kwan anyway.
 

GBlues

Purple Belt
Joined
Jul 26, 2008
Messages
314
Reaction score
22
Location
All over the U.S.
The To-Shindo home study course is good. IT's a little confusing at first, because you see Hayes doing like classroom stuff on the dvd. Working with other students. THen at the end, he goes through and explains how to do those techniques for the test. It's not a bad dvd set. I have the Mountains of Strength dvd, and it's good. You can learn some very useful things from it. You have to pay attention though. Because the beginning of the dvd it's literally like watching a class or private lesson. So pay attention, there are other things besides techniques to get out of those beginning segments of the dvd. Different things to be concerned with when doing those techniques. I found them helpful. Hope that helped.
 

JadecloudAlchemist

Master of Arts
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
1,877
Reaction score
82
Location
Miami,Florida
You are assuming that home study course people don't travel as well. People in my internal arts school both submit videos for evaluations and occasionally meet in person with Sifu. The dvd's and online vids. Merely give us what to practice on. If I wanted to study Toshindo I'd pick up the HSP in a heartbeat then I'd occassionally (likely 1 or 2x a month) travel to a Toshindo school I know of that is a couple hours away to supplement that. My Kung Fu sifu is a 10 hour drive away yet I'm planning on a weekend trip to do see him. You get out of anything what you put into it, and that goes for HSP and traditional dojo's/dojangs/kwans.
Majority of those who train in Home study courses do so without visiting a teacher for the reason of 1.Teacher is to far 2.No money for class 3.whatever reason. Learning internal arts by video is even more harder because of the details involved. I practice with my teacher internal arts and the amount of detail like silk reeling you really can't grasp from a video. Noone is dismissing videos as a supplement with a teacher it is when the video replaces the teacher that is problematic.
hard but not impossible, it's hard in a traditional classroom too. I've been learning Kung Fu chen style internal arts that way which I'm sure you know is radically different than the TKD I'm used to.
I am sure you know practicing Chen style that what you see in a video does not mean it is to be done like the video meaning watching Chen Xiaowang he sometimes does thing in a video that looks wrong compared to what he does in person(so I am told by one of his students) Your foot could be 3 inches off and it makes the difference between a solid stance and off balance a teacher can correct it. In internal arts even more so because even if you are in proper stance you may not be rooting and sinking your shoulders may be high a teacher needs to adjust that.

questions on your forum, telephone, and video evals can answer that. Case in point: I noticed on my Hsing-I 1. dvd the other day that some students had their feet positioned differently in the san-ti stance than others. So I (gasp) asked on the online school forum what was correct. The answer was as I suspected - they all had it right, little nuiances are not important as long as they are grounded and both feet foreward like I thought one clip looked like the feet were would unbalance you. It took all of 5 minutes to get my answer no joke. I have no doubt that Hayes' Toshindo instructors on their home study course forums can answer their questions as well. But if a "course" has no evaluation methods or contact with instructors then it's nothing more than a referance video or book and likely you can get a far cheaper solution at ebay or Amazon.
Its kinda of hard to judge from a video just look at the thread on the cop punching someones neck many say he is hitting the neck others say shoulder area. In Xingyi santi shi I was taught the back foot can go in slightly or not depends on the teacher and linerage. I really do not know how the students placed the feet that yo saw it may have been correct it may have been wrong and people thought it was correct the point is the teacher is the one who is suppose to explain it to you. You are welcome to start a thread in the internal arts section on learning neijia arts by video correspondence.
 

RRepster

Yellow Belt
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
44
Reaction score
0
Essentially you backed up everything I said jadecloud, I think perhaps you skimmed my post too quick though because I noted that internal arts especially are hard to do by video and demand feedback but again, not impossible. Where do you get the idea that the majority of people who take home study courses don't have a teacher? I've yet to find a home study course which does NOT have input by and to the teacher. And that is especially true of this Toshindo course that was asked.

Just buying videos is not the same as joining a study course just like buying a History book at Barnes & Noble is not the same as taking an online History class.
 

JadecloudAlchemist

Master of Arts
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
1,877
Reaction score
82
Location
Miami,Florida
though because I noted that internal arts especially are hard to do by video and demand feedback but again, not impossible.

How about near impossible. You are welcome to start a thread in the internal arts section and have others tell you the same thing.

Where do you get the idea that the majority of people who take home study courses don't have a teacher?
From the majority of people who come on forums asking about home study courses.

I've yet to find a home study course which does NOT have input by and to the teacher.
Having a teacher fixing your posture,being able to show you why you do not do things or why you do things big difference. On a video you can not see the small detail things some of the things especially in internal arts requires feeling which you need a teacher to phyically be there to adjust.

I understand some people do not have teachers in their area and have to make by with what they have. The forums do have advice for people in that situation some say use videos as SUPPLEMENTS to you training while seeing a teacher at least once a month. Others might say train in a similar art.

Your teacher did not learn from a video study course why does he think others can learn from a video study course?
 

RRepster

Yellow Belt
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
44
Reaction score
0
Ok I've seen your type enough on the 'net jadecloud. No one else's opinion ever matters, nobody else ever has done right in your eyes. blah blah blah. All bow down to mr. know it all, especially to one who conveniently snips out parts of people's posts to make a person say what they never did by leaving other parts out. We bow down to your all mighty knowledge and superiorousness.
 

JadecloudAlchemist

Master of Arts
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
1,877
Reaction score
82
Location
Miami,Florida
Ok I've seen your type enough on the 'net jadecloud. No one else's opinion ever matters, nobody else ever has done right in your eyes. blah blah blah. All bow down to mr. know it all, especially to one who conveniently snips out parts of people's posts to make a person say what they never did by leaving other parts out. We bow down to your all mighty knowledge and superiorousness.
Attack the arguement not the person this is known as Ad Hominem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I put things in quotes to address things. If you are happy with your training and feel it is adequate then so be it. In MY OPINION I stated why I do not feel it is the best course it is like your opinion just that an opinion.
 

HKToshindo

White Belt
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
10
Reaction score
1
Hello,
In my case, despite the fact that I live in Hong Kong now, I am drawn more towards ninjutsu. There are no teachers in Hong Kong of ninjutsu. What would you have me do, give up my dream to learn the art of Masaaki Hatsumi? Someday I hope to travel to Japan and learn from the masters there. In fact, I plan on taking a trip this summer.

Until then, I train as much as I can how I can. If Anshu Hayes did not think that I could learn from his course alone, do you think he would have sold them to me?

Robert
 

JadecloudAlchemist

Master of Arts
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
1,877
Reaction score
82
Location
Miami,Florida
In my case, despite the fact that I live in Hong Kong now, I am drawn more towards ninjutsu. There are no teachers in Hong Kong of ninjutsu. What would you have me do, give up my dream to learn the art of Masaaki Hatsumi? Someday I hope to travel to Japan and learn from the masters there. In fact, I plan on taking a trip this summer.

You can buy a Plane ticket for about $400.00 which is almost the same price as the Toshindo course. An 8 hour plane ride and $400 is nothing compared to a two day drive that I had to do to train.
 

Chris Parker

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
6,163
Reaction score
1,006
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Hello,
In my case, despite the fact that I live in Hong Kong now, I am drawn more towards ninjutsu. There are no teachers in Hong Kong of ninjutsu. What would you have me do, give up my dream to learn the art of Masaaki Hatsumi? Someday I hope to travel to Japan and learn from the masters there. In fact, I plan on taking a trip this summer.

Until then, I train as much as I can how I can. If Anshu Hayes did not think that I could learn from his course alone, do you think he would have sold them to me?

Robert

The benefits of a home-study course not withstanding (although, for the record, the Toshindo one appears to be set up with a support network, which makes it better than most), one thing I might point out HK is that if you are a member of the Toshindo organisation, then you may not be able to train in the Japanese schools if you make it over there.

The Bujinkan and Genbukan organisations are quite adamant about members of other Ninjutsu organsiations (including Toshindo) not being allowed to train in their dojo, just something to be aware of.
 

Cryozombie

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 11, 2003
Messages
9,998
Reaction score
206
The Bujinkan and Genbukan organisations are quite adamant about members of other Ninjutsu organsiations (including Toshindo) not being allowed to train in their dojo, just something to be aware of.

Yes... I agree with this, and would add if you show up at the Hombu, when you are questioned, and cannot produce a current Bujinkan Membership card, reference from your instructor, or tell them you are a Toshindo Home Study student, you may not be asked to leave, but you probably will not be welcomed and given good instruction either... And I'm not trying to be a jerk, that's just my understanding of how it tends to be there. I hear that from a number of people, and they questioned my instructor when he went last year, luckily he had his ducks in a row, and someone there who knew him to vouch for him. Typically they don't let every Tom, Dick, or Harry off the street come in.

Then again, I havn't been there yet, so everything I heard could be a lie, tho I would doubt that.
 

GBlues

Purple Belt
Joined
Jul 26, 2008
Messages
314
Reaction score
22
Location
All over the U.S.
You can buy a Plane ticket for about $400.00 which is almost the same price as the Toshindo course. An 8 hour plane ride and $400 is nothing compared to a two day drive that I had to do to train.

I don't want to start an argument, but, if it's nothing you should send him the $400 bucks for the flight. I'm sure he would appreciate it.
 

JadecloudAlchemist

Master of Arts
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
1,877
Reaction score
82
Location
Miami,Florida
I don't want to start an argument, but, if it's nothing you should send him the $400 bucks for the flight. I'm sure he would appreciate it.

nothing compared to

That means $400.00 is nothing compared to the thousands I have spent traveling to train. Driving two days is nothing compared to an 8 hour plane ride.

If it was someone I knew well I would have no problem lending them $400.00 for a plane ticket.
 

GBlues

Purple Belt
Joined
Jul 26, 2008
Messages
314
Reaction score
22
Location
All over the U.S.
That means $400.00 is nothing compared to the thousands I have spent traveling to train. Driving two days is nothing compared to an 8 hour plane ride.

If it was someone I knew well I would have no problem lending them $400.00 for a plane ticket.

Yeah, I didn't say lend. LOL! My point being, maybe he doesn't have $400.00 to spend on a regular basis, for training. Maybe he has saved up $400 dollars over the course of time, remember this guy lives in hong kong, maybe all he can afford is $400 bucks. What about a place to stay when he gets there? Is Hatsumi going to give him a place to live? Maybe he has kids? Do we know this mans situation? No, we don't. However, if he wishes to study a style of ninjutsu, to-shindo will serve him well. Even if all he can get is the home study course it is better than not having it. THe home study course is good. Training in person is always better, but if he can't afford classes or doesn't have an instructor to study a system or style that he is interested in, we shouldn't discourage him. We shouldn't belittle his attempt because it cost some one else thousands of dollars and 2 or 3 days travel time to go study. When he could pay $400 and have a plane flight. That may be a lot of money to him or someone else, especially in todays economy. Not everybody has the kind of money that you do. Perhaps it would behoove us if we all used a little compassion. When he could save $400 dollars and at least begin training, and have something there everyday to work from, as opposed to spend $400 dollars once, and getting one lesson every 6 months. Now, I don't know his situation either, but I think it a fair assumption that if he had the money to fly back and forth, he would already be doing that. That's my take on it.
 

JadecloudAlchemist

Master of Arts
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
1,877
Reaction score
82
Location
Miami,Florida
maybe he doesn't have $400.00 to spend on a regular basis, for training.
Lets say $400.00 every 2 months which works out to $200.00 a month=$50.00 a week=about $10 a day.

Maybe he has saved up $400 dollars over the course of time, remember this guy lives in hong kong, maybe all he can afford is $400 bucks.
Sure maybe he is this or that or whatever maybe we use for him. The point is its $400.00 what is the best way to use it to enhance the training. My opinion is if you are 8hrs from the source Japan then you might as well go there then spend $400.00 learning from a video.

What about a place to stay when he gets there? Is Hatsumi going to give him a place to live?
Plenty of Youth hostels.

http://www.hihostels.com/dba/country-JP.en.htm#hostelling

It cost about 1500-3300 Yen which is about $15 to $33 a night real cheap.

Maybe he has kids? Do we know this mans situation? No, we don't
He can take the kids with him. He can have a friend watch them. All these maybes are excuses.

However, if he wishes to study a style of ninjutsu, to-shindo will serve him well. Even if all he can get is the home study course it is better than not having it.
Homestudy courses can build bad habits. So when you go to an actual Dojo instead of learning how to do things correctly the teacher is spending all the time breaking you out of your bad habits. Now you instead of learning at a normal or accelerated pace you are learning at a much slowler pace because of the conditioning of bad habits with learning by video.

I have read the horror stories on other forums you can try E-budo about having to get people out of bad habits due to video training.

THe home study course is good. Training in person is always better, but if he can't afford classes or doesn't have an instructor to study a system or style that he is interested in, we shouldn't discourage him.
If you think its good some beg to differ including me. I think class for a month in Japan is $30 it was not as it is in the states but maybe things have changed. He may not have an instructor in his area but its not like he is 2 days from the school or the school is alot of money.
We shouldn't belittle his attempt because it cost some one else thousands of dollars and 2 or 3 days travel time to go study

It's annoying when people do not want to put in the effort of their training they say they love. I was making $6.50 an hour and I managed to save money and fly to Japan which took me about 18hr flight. This guy has $400 and is 8hrs away but no he want to take the easy way of video course?!

That may be a lot of money to him or someone else, especially in todays economy.
Kids these days make $8 flipping burgers I made $6.50 back in 2000 stop making excuses.

Not everybody has the kind of money that you do. Perhaps it would behoove us if we all used a little compassion.

I am not rich I saved my money I made sacrifices but I should have compassion for someone who does not want to and take the easy video course way?

When he could save $400 dollars and at least begin training, and have something there everyday to work from, as opposed to spend $400 dollars once, and getting one lesson every 6 months.
1 lesson every 6 months?? Thats like $66 a month $16 a week $2 a day with that kinda of sacrifice and commitment maybe learning from video is the best way because clearly that does not show any dedication to hard training in Japan or even with a live person.

Just for the record I sometimes had to choose between grocceries for the week or money to train(I ate lots of Ramen and vitamins) So maybe I am a little hard on people who do not make sacrifices and more excuses.
 
Top