Phillip Bayer

[Transk53]

After his unfortunate accident and life changing injury, I wonder if any member around here, has seen him in action. I wonder with the loss of his hand, has much of his Wing Chun had to be adapted. Or would it be the case that some moves would be just left out. Chain punching for an obvious one, the action would have to be changed?

 

[LFJ]

Chain punching for an obvious one, the action would have to be changed?

Are you saying he can't punch?

Chain punching is a stupid tactic anyway.

 

[Vajramusti]

After his unfortunate accident and life changing injury, I wonder if any member around here, has seen him in action. I wonder with the loss of his hand, has much of his Wing Chun had to be adapted. Or would it be the case that some moves would be just left out. Chain punching for an obvious one, the action would have to be changed?

---------------------------------------------------
I admire him for his adaptations

 

[LFJ]

I admire him for his adaptations

Namely?

 

[geezer]

After his unfortunate accident and life changing injury, I wonder if any member around here, has seen him in action. I wonder with the loss of his hand, has much of his Wing Chun had to be adapted...

Not sure, but I believe his accident happened fairly early in his study of WC/VT before he became a student of WSL. I think I remember hearing that some of his prior instructors and si-hings had a very dismissive attitude toward his efforts and potential after his accident, basically laughing at him ....and that helped motivate him to look for a new instructor. Boy were those guys wrong!!!! Lucky for the rest of us. (Even though I argue with the WSL-PB-WC guys, I think Sifu Bayer is very impressive and has contributed immensely to WC/VT in general).

Now this may just be a myth, but I thought it was a good story. Hopefully LFJ can verify whether or not this has any basis in fact.

 

[Transk53]

Not sure, but I believe his accident happened fairly early in his study of WC/VT before he became a student of WSL. I think I remember hearing that some of his prior instructors and si-hings had a very dismissive attitude toward his efforts and potential after his accident, basically laughing at him ....and that helped motivate him to look for a new instructor. Boy were those guys wrong!!!! Lucky for the rest of us. (Even though I argue with the WSL-PB-WC guys, I think Sifu Bayer is very impressive and has contributed immensely to WC/VT in general).

Now this may just be a myth, but I thought it was a good story. Hopefully LFJ can verify whether or not this has any basis in fact.

Frankly LFJ is starting to bore me totally. Thanks Geezer, having a bad back, I have a lot admiration for people like Sifu Bayer. Just figured that some of his technique would to be changed through the loss of the. Wonder how he initially starting working things out balance wise for a start.

 

[Transk53]

Are you saying he can't punch?

Chain punching is a stupid tactic anyway.

Going to say this only once. I meant this thread for adult conversion through the written word. Not interested in your penchant for misdirection, half answers etc. Will you please just go away. You have nothing to contribute to this thread. Of course though, you are like a hound on heat.

 

[Danny T]

Are you saying he can't punch?

Chain punching is a stupid tactic anyway.

Wow.
I believe you either read far too much into what was said or you are wanting to argue.

I for one believe that wing chun has very little to do with the hand though there are many actions where the hand can be used in conjunction with the elbow, the forearm, hip, and body.

 

[Cephalopod]

Judging only from what I've seen in his videos...

It seems like he has turned his missing hand into an asset rather than a liability.
His left hand backfist, for example, is preternaturally fast. This is helped by not having a wobbly dead weight (ie a hand) at the end of his arm.
He also seems to be able to slip a left straight punch though small openings that might not pass a fist.

 

[Transk53]

Yeah. Must off taken superb effort on his behalf. Watching the vids as well.

 

[Kickboxer101]

Are you saying he can't punch?

Chain punching is a stupid tactic anyway.

No he's saying he can't /chain/ punch. Where he throws multiple punches (if that's wrong I apologise I don't know much about wing chun but that's what I've always thought of when I hear chain punches )

 

[Transk53]

No he's saying he can't /chain/ punch. Where he throws multiple punches (if that's wrong I apologise I don't know much about wing chun but that's what I've always thought of when I hear chain punches )

Don't worry about what LFJ said. It's only misdirection. I was wondering how such an injury would impact chain punching. LFJ just showing himself up, chain punching is not a stupid tactic. In fact it is not a tactic, just a element to an overall tactic. Basing that on fighting experience that punching is not a tactic in itself. Just my take.

 

[guy b]

Chain punching isn't a thing you do in fighting with WSL VT, so unlikely that PB would find any problem.

I don't think losing the hand has been a handicap for PB.

 

[LFJ]

Judging only from what I've seen in his videos...

It seems like he has turned his missing hand into an asset rather than a liability.
His left hand backfist, for example, is preternaturally fast. This is helped by not having a wobbly dead weight (ie a hand) at the end of his arm.
He also seems to be able to slip a left straight punch though small openings that might not pass a fist.

Very observant, although it's a faak-sau, not a backfist.

This is exactly what PB says in this video;

WSL trained him to strengthen his left, so that he could strike with it, and now it's even better and faster than his right. He has turned the disadvantage into an advantage.

Also says there were always skeptics thinking he could do or learn nothing with one hand (like the WT lineage before he went to HK and met WSL).

Talks about the use of the elbow in the system and developing a powerful punch.

Doesn't talk about chain punching, not because he can't punch multiple times, but because that's movie Wing Chun.

 

[PiedmontChun]

From the little bit of videos I have seen from PB (mostly chi sau and bong lop, and mostly here on MT), I get the impression he trains with his students as if his missing hand was actually still there. You will see him use control like any instructor, stopping short of hitting the face, but he will strike as if there was a fist still there and not limit himself to one hand for striking. I imagine that is definitely to his student's benefit, and he must do an excellent job passing on the art without giving a lopsided or skewed version based on his own physicality.

I would imagine some specific actions, like Jut and Jum type actions that use a downward facing palm, or chun sau which uses the blade of the hand, not to mention the open palm actions found thru all 3 forms..... are movements that simply don't work the same. But if VT is primarily about the punch as we are often reminded here in this forum, maybe that is inconsequential.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

At the very least, the missing hand changes his left-side reach by about 4 inches. That means either he would choose to be closer than someone else, or he would choose to extend the arm more when punching with the left side. I'm not sure how much impact that might have on subsequent and consequent movements, but it seems he has found a way to transmit what he does to students without any significant problem.

There's also the reduced mass, which has both positive and negative aspects. When punching, there's not as much mass delivering impact, but there's also not as much mass slowing the delivery. That may end up making the difference negligible - that would be a question better addressed by those familiar with WC/VT mechanics and techniques.

I'm not familiar with the movements in VT, so I don't know if there are any small deflections that benefit from the ability to "flip" at the wrist (moving the wrist joint while the elbow and knuckles stay relatively still). If there are any, those moves wouldn't exist on that side, but that would be a moot point if those movements aren't used.

 

[LFJ]

I would imagine some specific actions, like Jut and Jum type actions that use a downward facing palm, or chun sau which uses the blade of the hand, not to mention the open palm actions found thru all 3 forms..... are movements that simply don't work the same. But if VT is primarily about the punch as we are often reminded here in this forum, maybe that is inconsequential.

Don't have whatever "chun sau" is. The rest have little or nothing to do with the hand in VT.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Don't have whatever "chun sau" is. The rest have little or nothing to do with the hand in VT.

I think I mean "cheun kiu". See below @ 0:30-0:31 as his hand shoots forward over the fook sau. (I have no connection with this person, just one of the first videos I found upon searching)

Its a movement that seems to come up often in the WT I have done, opens the line of attack for a punch.

 

[LFJ]

Okay. That action is not an application or technique in VT. It's establishing a punching concept.