Pecking Order...

[GouRonin]

I have a question. Do you think that every school should have a pecking order and if so who should be at the top of that hierarchy? The head instructor? The school owner? Also, what constitutes these levels of order? Fighting ability? Time in the art?

Comments?

 

[tonbo]

Good question.

At our school, there is an implied pecking order, but it's a real small one, and goes as follows:

School owner/head instructor (same guy--his school, his rules)
Upper Rank Black Belts
Black Belts

Pretty obvious, huh? This can change a little bit, with some of the Black Belts getting a little more "attention" or "notice", depending on if they are working for the school or not (as instructors or managers). Aside from that, there really is no pecking order.

Aside from the other belt rankings, of course....

Peace--

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by GouRonin

I have a question. Do you think that every school should have a pecking order and if so who should be at the top of that hierarchy? The head instructor? The school owner? Also, what constitutes these levels of order? Fighting ability? Time in the art?

Comments?

I vote for fighting ability and teaching ability.

 

[Eraser]

Yeah i guess at my Dojang we have some kinda order... If its a low belt class and high belts attend.. the low belts get the front of the class and vice versa if a low belt attends a high belt class (rarely happens.. who wants to be tortured that early in the game Rofl) the high belts get the front of class.. in seminars or testing.. we go in rows starting with the highest belts forming on the right going down to begginers..


Thats how we do it...

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by tonbo

School owner/head instructor (same guy--his school, his rules)

Make believe scenario ... I'm rich, my instructor moves, closes his
school,whatever. In no way am I ready to be an instructor, so I
hire some teachers. On the mat .. they should still call the shots.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Rainman



I vote for fighting ability and teaching ability.

When I was coming up through the ranks there
were two other guys either right behind me in rank
or the same rank when they caught up to me
in the Brown levels. One was younger and under
18 and had no problems defering any pecking order
to the older students of the same rank.

Now comes me and the other guy who was a year
younger. He had a killer attitude, Marine DI,
and at Brown II the Head Instructor named him the
'Senior Student' - even with the previous
statement of if same rank then defer to time
and if time in the art is close defer to age.

Now, I had no problem with this being his elder
by 10 months, or being in the art longer by 3
months. The problem occurred with the other
colored belts. They all thought I had been
slighted somehow. In their Eyes I was the better
teacher, yet the other guys had more fights
under his belt and was considered the better
fighter.

I ended the problems real quick by telling
everyone, first I do not mind nor do I find issue.
Second, the Head Instructor wants HIM in charge
for his DI attitude. Even with him in charge,
I was always there, took the attendance collected
dues, etc., ..., I was able to assist him if
the head instructor was off the mats for any
reason.

So, I guess the Top ranked instructor is in charge
and then from there it is based on rank, and
within rank it is either settle amongst the ranks
or by the head instructor by his/her desires.

just my thoughts

Rich

 

[sweeper]

how much does it matter? I mean it seems like someone's misisng the point if their trying to gain political power within one school...

Obviously the head instructor is top than I would say other instructors come in line after that, but if you are talking about a non-designated instructor. someone who isn't supposed to be running the class at that time.. than I would say if what he has to say makes sence and/or if the designated instructor agrees than go with it.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by sweeper

how much does it matter? I mean it seems like someone's misisng the point if their trying to gain political power within one school...

Obviously the head instructor is top than I would say other instructors come in line after that, but if you are talking about a non-designated instructor. someone who isn't supposed to be running the class at that time.. than I would say if what he has to say makes sence and/or if the designated instructor agrees than go with it.

Sweeper,

To some people it will always matter.
To some people they NEED to have the power or
authority. They need to have their Black Belt
it will make them, ...

To you, from your question, this type of person
does not make sense, and I would have to agree
with you. But, these people do exist.

As to the theoretical question asked and
answered earlier, if you are wealthy and open
a school and have instructors come in to teach,
then who would be in charge.

It should be the instructor.

Just my thoughts

Rich

 

[old_sempai]

:asian:

Shortly after becoming Shodan in my art, another student 1/3 my age achieved his rank about a month later. Never mind my having studied it for 26 years, a period of time that exceeded his age by at least 8 year. However, after his promotion he proceeded to place his name ahead of mine on the rank board.

On another occassion while visiting another Dojo, as a Shodan I showed a student a slightly different step while executing Shihonage, one that resulted in the technique being not only more effective, but potentially deadly to the Uke. Needless to say the school's owner went semi-ballistic and proceeded to rant on and on about how this technique should be done in such and such a manner, no variations whatsoever. Upon visitiing that particular school at a later time the school's owner elected to go out of his way to stress to his students I was not a teacher, only visiting, despite being a Shodan, and having taught on and off for 10 years. Oh yes, this individual had also spent about 5 years in system. His actions were so childish that it was embarrassing, especially with his own students. But, they still quietly asked questions, but I did not answer them directly, chosing instead to demonstrate variants and stating how I had seen this or that Sensei doing it at one time or another.

For an art that seeks to teach respect, their behavior spoke volumes regarding their lack of character. Further, upon reflection that they were simply emmulating the actions of other senior members that are equally ego driven.

As a result today I only teach my sons along with a few other close friends, and it is done without regard of financial consideration.

:asian: :asian:

 

[tonbo]

Sorry, I need to clarify this a bit...

When I said the "pecking order" at our school started at the top with the owner ("his school, his rules"), I wasn't real clear. The head instructor/owner teaches mainly the Black Belt class, which is made up primarily of the student instructors. We have a requirement that you spend time teaching during your own study, and that you have a certain number of teaching/assisting hours in between each upper belt rank. Thus, we get to see how the techniques are to be taught as far as the "test way". We are given a great deal of latitude when it comes to making decisions "on the mat".

The "benefit" rule of our school is as follows: 1) Students, 2) School, 3) Instructors, 4) Head Instructor/owner. This means that this is the order of priority to be followed when determining what practices to follow. We will institute policies if they benefit these groups in this order of precedence---what is good for the students comes first, what is good for the head instructor personally comes last.

As an example, our head instructor/owner has two kids. He refuses to teach them himself, as that is the job of the student instructors. As he puts it, he teaches us, and we teach them. That's the way it goes.

In class, we line up with the higher belts in the front of class. This goes for seminars as well. If it is a larger class and a technique is being demonstrated at the front of class, the front row or rows will typically go down to a kneeling stance so that the back rows can see. Makes it easier for everyone.

Finally, thankfully, I think our school has been pretty lucky as far as "in class" pecking order goes. We all know who the "big dogs" are, and there are only two of them. The rest of us kinda work it out from class to class.....some days you are the statue, and some days, you are the bird. It just happens that way. No one takes it personally, and no one is considered overall better than anyone else. We have a great load of talent in our class, I think (so what am *I* doing there??!!), with everyone having individual strengths. It is part of the class rule that we avoid one-upsmanship and concentrate on learning. That makes things really, really nice. Lots of benefit, no egos.

Peace--

 

[Despairbear]

At my dojo it works something like this:

Sensei
Black belts
every one else by rank.

But this is not enforced in any way we do not line up in rank nor does rank have any privigales other than the ability you have trained to.



Despair Bear

 

[old_sempai]

:asian:

In our system each Shodan is required to teach for approximately a year prior to testing, and consequently considered a qualified instructor. For my part I was privledged to have been permitted by the Founder to run my own school while still an Ikyu, almost 10 years earlier, and since the 1960's have worked professionally as an Technical Instructor in the Transportation Industry with a number of major import manufacturers, and served for a time as a Technical Advisor with a European Military Organization. Therefore, with regard to experience I would say that I am extremely well qualified to teach, regardless of subject.

In regard to the two previously noted occurences let me provide the following additional insight:

The younger Shodan was simply an immature teenager, albeit almost out of his teens, but still very immature [and since he was the younger sibling in his family he often openly displayed behavioral patterns in line with the "number two son" syndrome].

The second instance found me initially being introduced as a very knowledgeable Shodan in our art form, with my years in the system also acknowledged, and as a result he encouraged them to ask questions about techniques. However, the events that transpired after the fact were generated by the individual, who clearly exhibited Napoleonic traits with his behavior.

Being married to Doctor of Psychology has advantages, especially in light of having helped them write their Thesis.

Frankly a great many of those holding Dan grades within our style would be well served to become acquainted with the following 12th century Japanese work that was originally posted in my Dojo, and have become a part of my own philosophy:

"The sound of the Gionshosha bells echo the impermanence of all things.

The color of the Soliflowers reveal that even the prosperous must decline.

The proud do not endure. They are like a dream on a spring night.

The mighty fall at last, they are as dust before the wind."

Heike Monogatari

:asian: :asian:

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by old_sempai
since the 1960's have worked professionally as an Technical Instructor in the Transportation Industry with a number of major import manufacturers, and served for a time as a Technical Advisor with a European Military Organization. Therefore, with regard to experience I would say that I am extremely well qualified to teach, regardless of subject.

Hey, great. I've been having trouble with the DNA gene sequencing of a little project I have been working on.

 

[theneuhauser]

wow sempai-that's beautiful

on the subject of the pecking order-

respect comes naturally. if a person respects your skill, your attitude, or your time, hopefully all these- than you are respected as a teacher- in this day and age that's all we have to go off of. in some systems, rank implies respect because of the hard work that it implies, but because that varies from school to school, it is less important. most of us will never move in to a school, train all day, and perform all the other duties that a full time martial art student may have performed some time ago.
so let's not expect too much out of people-if you are a teacher or senior student or even if you are a first year student that just made friends with the new kid-be nice, be helpful, be genuine that's all people really want.

the reason i say this is because its ridiculous to believe that people will sweat and sacrifice or even follow you just because of the color of your belt-or how old you are in the system-none of us are old enough, none of us are wise enough
:soapbox:

sorry-anyways, rank should be applied loosely so that true respect for eachother can blossom

 

[theneuhauser]

and GOU
you are a funny guy :rofl:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by GouRonin



Hey, great. I've been having trouble with the DNA gene sequencing of a little project I have been working on.

Gou,


I do hope you do not plan on using your own
DNA for the test trial runs.: rofl:

Because it could end up like the Green Goblin
in Spiderman.

On the other hand, I think I might have gotten
the point you were trying to make.
I could not refuse to volley back.


Rich

 

[Cthulhu]

When I was training in Okinawa-te, it was based purely on rank. When I trained in someone else's system, it was based on rank. Since there were black belts from different systems in that class, we still used rank as a 'guideline', with the higher-dan ranked black belts being 'higher up'. As for all the first degree black belts (and myself, since Okinawa-te normally doesn't use dan-rankings), it was sort of based on skill level.

In FCS Kali class I'm in, it's pretty much the two instructors are the heads of the class, and everybody else is fairly equal in 'status'. However, we tend to be very informal, joking around with each other and whatnot. Except I'm the only one that gets whomped on for joking around


Cthulhu

 

[Klondike93]

The school I help teach at, the head instructor calls all the shots, and he's not the owner. Then the black belts by rank, then color belts by rank.

The kenpo school I go to the head instructor is the owner so he calls all the shots. There are no black belts yet, so then it's color belts by rank.

I agree that if there is a head instructor, they should call all the shots out on the mat/floor.



:asian: