Palm Strike
- Thread starter terryl965
- Start date
Last Fearner
2nd Black Belt
I hope it has been well established that the palm strike is a part of the Taekwondo curriculum. Open and closed hand techniques have always been a part of Korean Martial Art, even before the name change to "Taekwondo" in 1955, and even before Choi Hong Hi was born. More techniques are a part of Taekwondo's history than many people realize.
Mantis, I would be curious as to what physics theory teaches that the smaller surface equals smaller impact (really, it's hard to tell by the tone of my voice, but I'm not being sarcastic -
) . Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by that, or I am not familiar with that part of physics, but I can relate to you what I have learned and teach about the size of the impact area.
If you strike a target with a certain amount of force, say 100 lbs. of pressure, and you strike with an object that measures 100 square inches on the surface (10 in. X 10 in.) then your impact will equal 1 lb. of pressure per square inch. Now, if you reduce the striking tool to impact a smaller target, say 1 square inch, then you have all 100 lbs. of pressure in that square inch. In Taekwondo, this is called "concentration." Not the mental kind, but the physical condensing of your power to be delivered in the smallest possible target area to do the most damage. This comes from physics.
Perhaps you have a different view on this and we could discuss it further if you would like.
I also got a chuckle out of this - - :lol:
I'm not real fond of the "trial and error" method, but if it works for you . . .
Yes, these things that the Masters teach really do work, and they are powerful, even if they don't seem that way at first. I just wondered how old is your brother, is he in training, and was he a "willing participant" to this experiment? - lol
:whip:
The palm heel strike can be done with the base of the palm, or twisted slightly to use the knife edge (kind of a cross between a palm strike and a knife-hand). The fingers can be extended for a more relaxed muscle approach (with ki) or first and second knuckles clenched for a tighter striking tool. The hand can be straight up vertical (ie: solar plexus or nose), tilted 45 degrees up (ie: chin or front of rib cage), 90 degrees to the side (ie: side of ribs), 45 degrees down (ie: floating rib). or striaght down (ie: groin).
When the hand strikes in a vertical or 45 degrees up, the fingers usually start pointing down and rotate (for a right hand strike) counter-clockwise to the upward position. If the technique is an "upset" strike, like an upset punch, then the fingers would start pointing up, and rotate (for a right hand strike) clockwise until they are declined 45 degrees or straight down. The 90 degree strike can be rotated either way.
The palm strike will damage a larger area than the punch and does have more of a systemic effect internally. When striking the head, it tends to "rattle their cage" more than break bones (but it can). The cerebral concussion causing a black-out is a typical result. Tournament rules vary. Years ago, I won some matches with mid-section ridge hands, but WTF rules only allow front of fist punch (no open hands, no backfist or hammer fist, etc). This is for the safety of the competitors.
This my take on the palm strike. There are a few other variations, but I won't go into them all right now.
Nice talking with you - - feel free to disagree.
Chief Master Eisenhart
mantis said:
Mantis, I would be curious as to what physics theory teaches that the smaller surface equals smaller impact (really, it's hard to tell by the tone of my voice, but I'm not being sarcastic -
) . Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by that, or I am not familiar with that part of physics, but I can relate to you what I have learned and teach about the size of the impact area.If you strike a target with a certain amount of force, say 100 lbs. of pressure, and you strike with an object that measures 100 square inches on the surface (10 in. X 10 in.) then your impact will equal 1 lb. of pressure per square inch. Now, if you reduce the striking tool to impact a smaller target, say 1 square inch, then you have all 100 lbs. of pressure in that square inch. In Taekwondo, this is called "concentration." Not the mental kind, but the physical condensing of your power to be delivered in the smallest possible target area to do the most damage. This comes from physics.
Perhaps you have a different view on this and we could discuss it further if you would like.
I also got a chuckle out of this - - :lol:
mantis said:
I'm not real fond of the "trial and error" method, but if it works for you . . .
Yes, these things that the Masters teach really do work, and they are powerful, even if they don't seem that way at first. I just wondered how old is your brother, is he in training, and was he a "willing participant" to this experiment? - lol
:whip:
The palm heel strike can be done with the base of the palm, or twisted slightly to use the knife edge (kind of a cross between a palm strike and a knife-hand). The fingers can be extended for a more relaxed muscle approach (with ki) or first and second knuckles clenched for a tighter striking tool. The hand can be straight up vertical (ie: solar plexus or nose), tilted 45 degrees up (ie: chin or front of rib cage), 90 degrees to the side (ie: side of ribs), 45 degrees down (ie: floating rib). or striaght down (ie: groin).
When the hand strikes in a vertical or 45 degrees up, the fingers usually start pointing down and rotate (for a right hand strike) counter-clockwise to the upward position. If the technique is an "upset" strike, like an upset punch, then the fingers would start pointing up, and rotate (for a right hand strike) clockwise until they are declined 45 degrees or straight down. The 90 degree strike can be rotated either way.
The palm strike will damage a larger area than the punch and does have more of a systemic effect internally. When striking the head, it tends to "rattle their cage" more than break bones (but it can). The cerebral concussion causing a black-out is a typical result. Tournament rules vary. Years ago, I won some matches with mid-section ridge hands, but WTF rules only allow front of fist punch (no open hands, no backfist or hammer fist, etc). This is for the safety of the competitors.
This my take on the palm strike. There are a few other variations, but I won't go into them all right now.
Nice talking with you - - feel free to disagree.
Chief Master Eisenhart
bobster_ice
Black Belt
terryl965 said:
I used it in real life before, on my cousin, it was a mistake, well it wasnt but I didnt mean to break his nose.
stoneheart
Purple Belt
Open hand strikes are routinely favored in Chinese systems over the closed fist. Food for thought, huh?
I know personally of a woman (slight of build) who burst both her attacker's eardrums with a well-timed double clap to the head. Don't kid yourself, the palm heel is one of the most effective strikes to teach - it's taught to beginners for good reason - it's much safer for the striker than a punch.
I know personally of a woman (slight of build) who burst both her attacker's eardrums with a well-timed double clap to the head. Don't kid yourself, the palm heel is one of the most effective strikes to teach - it's taught to beginners for good reason - it's much safer for the striker than a punch.
jdinca
Master Black Belt
Palm strikes are great. They can actually be more powerful than punches, due to the fact the wrist is taken out of the equation. A variation on the palm strike is called a "soft hand" block. Not as devastating as a kenpo inward block but it's faster and does a fine job of blowing the attackers arm out of position and opening targets.
Zepp
Master of Arts
Before studying Tae Kwon Do, when I was much younger, I'd use palm strikes to beat up on my little sister. :EG:
Oh, and I've used them to strike to the body in light-contact sparring, as well as to break through to 2 boards. It's not the best weapon in the TKD arsenal, but it's worth knowing. Come to think of it, when I took Krav Maga, the instructor encouraged everyone to consider using a palm attack instead of a punch because you were less likely to hurt your hand or wrist.
Oh, and I've used them to strike to the body in light-contact sparring, as well as to break through to 2 boards. It's not the best weapon in the TKD arsenal, but it's worth knowing. Come to think of it, when I took Krav Maga, the instructor encouraged everyone to consider using a palm attack instead of a punch because you were less likely to hurt your hand or wrist.
aplonis
Orange Belt
In our school we call them "palm-heel" strikes, since we are striking with the heel of the palm. And they do occur in several hyung, and must therefore be part of TKD.
For me the disadvantage of palm heel striks is that my wrist does not bend backwards 90 degrees. This slightly limits the number of targets I can strike with the palm heel.
But the head is a primary target of the palm-heel and resides at an upward angle...just right for my less-than-90-degree bent wrist. So no problem. Also, the skull from the front is one massively heavy bone. You'll break the long, slender hand bones striking against the front of the skull. But not the heavy bones of the palm-heel.
From one perspective you choose the striking implement based upon the gap through which it must penetrate. When there is room only for a knife hand, use that. If it opens wider, a fist. If it is wider yet, the palm heel.
So I think of knife and ridge hands as striking into narrow areas like the side of the neck, or under the chin. If there is more room, a hammer fist or punch. If there is more yet, the palm heel.
Personally my favorite is the ridge hand if only because of its unexpected vector...and folks seem more unduly impressed when you break boards with the ridge hand.
But palm heel would be my choice on anything harder than your average board. I'd fear to break something I might need at work tomorrow. That's happened before and bosses are none too willing to lessen their expectations in deference to one's mere hobby, yes?
For me the disadvantage of palm heel striks is that my wrist does not bend backwards 90 degrees. This slightly limits the number of targets I can strike with the palm heel.
But the head is a primary target of the palm-heel and resides at an upward angle...just right for my less-than-90-degree bent wrist. So no problem. Also, the skull from the front is one massively heavy bone. You'll break the long, slender hand bones striking against the front of the skull. But not the heavy bones of the palm-heel.
From one perspective you choose the striking implement based upon the gap through which it must penetrate. When there is room only for a knife hand, use that. If it opens wider, a fist. If it is wider yet, the palm heel.
So I think of knife and ridge hands as striking into narrow areas like the side of the neck, or under the chin. If there is more room, a hammer fist or punch. If there is more yet, the palm heel.
Personally my favorite is the ridge hand if only because of its unexpected vector...and folks seem more unduly impressed when you break boards with the ridge hand.
But palm heel would be my choice on anything harder than your average board. I'd fear to break something I might need at work tomorrow. That's happened before and bosses are none too willing to lessen their expectations in deference to one's mere hobby, yes?
Xequat
Black Belt
Does anyone know if there's any truth to the story about a palm-heel strike to the nose breaking cartilage loose and going into the brain to kill a person? I'm sure most of us have heard of that technique, but I don't know if it's really true, because I've heard that it was false. If so, how much pressure is needed?
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
I've heard of the value of a palm strike to the nose, but not for the lethal reasons you describe
terryl965 said:
It was used in the original one-steps I learned (a Moo Duk Kwan school) in the early 1980's and the instructor recommended it over the reverse punch for self-defence because of the lower probability that you would injure your hand. You can also see that Jhoon Rhee's "Chon-Ji" book has a palm strike in one of his one-steps (actually it is a simple block and counter). Unfortunately I have used it mistakenly when a "friend" jumped me as a joke. I was able to pull it at the last second (a bit), but even then it did stun him (and taught him not to play jokes like that).
Palm strike, elbow, knife-edge, and hammer fist are my hand techniques of choice for self-defence.
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
Since a palm strike is really not a TKD hand strike...
I thought Taeguek Yuk-Jang uses a palm strike as a block....doesn't that make it a TKD technique?
I've trained it in elsewise, but at a school where we were haevy into self-defense so sometimes the lines around 'real TKD' were blurry to me
I thought Taeguek Yuk-Jang uses a palm strike as a block....doesn't that make it a TKD technique?
I've trained it in elsewise, but at a school where we were haevy into self-defense so sometimes the lines around 'real TKD' were blurry to me
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
It is in the poomse but the Palm strike is not really used in the sport of TKD
Ahh...see..in my mind (and maybe only there, who knows?), the poomse define the Art and sparring is part of training in the Art. Which is why when the question comes up if something is "a part of TKD" I look to the poomse (and as I grow and learn more complicated poomse, I'm constantly learning how much that really encompasses) as the catalog(s) of what is considerd TKD. I only do WTF-Olympic rules sparring (tried some point-sparring afew times) but to me that's just something you do for competition, for fun, and to test your skill, but in my mind it's just a very limited set of techniques so I usually don't look to sparring as to whether something is a part of TKD or not.
I had misunderstood the scope of your initial question and after reading Jonathan Randall's post, had not really read the rest of the thread to see that the issue had already been brought up
Ahh...see..in my mind (and maybe only there, who knows?), the poomse define the Art and sparring is part of training in the Art. Which is why when the question comes up if something is "a part of TKD" I look to the poomse (and as I grow and learn more complicated poomse, I'm constantly learning how much that really encompasses) as the catalog(s) of what is considerd TKD. I only do WTF-Olympic rules sparring (tried some point-sparring afew times) but to me that's just something you do for competition, for fun, and to test your skill, but in my mind it's just a very limited set of techniques so I usually don't look to sparring as to whether something is a part of TKD or not.
I had misunderstood the scope of your initial question and after reading Jonathan Randall's post, had not really read the rest of the thread to see that the issue had already been brought up
Miles
Senior Master
terryl965 said:
I remember in one of the first open tournaments I ever participated in watching a kung-fu stylist fighting a karateka. The kung-fu stylist did a palm strike-like what we do in TG#6, but the to face of the karateka-dropped him like a sack of potatoes (hope I spelled this right Dan Quayle) and left a huge welt on the karateka's left cheek. It wasn't a legal strike and the kung-fu stylist was DQ'd. But it was a heck of a shot.
If you have Century's Bob dummy, practicing palm heel strikes is a lot of fun-have the kids strike Bob in the nose or chin and yell, "No!"
Miles
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