dancingalone
Grandmaster
Those of you who have studied both of these form sets, do you believe the physical lessons taught in them are similar or different? Just starting some conversation...
Palgwe vs. Tae Geuk
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Manny
Senior Master
They are diferent to me. In my eraly days as a taekwondoing we did palgwes, I liked alot, when I reach red belt level we change the patters to TaeGuks.
Palgwes to me are more asrtistic, more martila if you wish but the mechanics of TaeGuks are simpler and easier to learn and to master.
Educationally talking TaeGuks are simpler and easier to learn.
Manny
I learned the Palgwe forms first and then switched the to Taegeuks.
The only real problem that I had with the switch is learning a walking stance. There were no walking stances in Palgwes (at least how I learned them) so it was a huge adjustment.
I think the other physical differences are not so specific to the form sets, but to the Kukkiwon/WTF standard. E.g., with the Palgwe forms, it is common to hold a block through any kicking techniques. However, with the Taegeuks, the hands are brought to a fighting stance first, before the kick is thrown.
The Palgwe forms tend to be more symmetrical in their pattern than the Taegeuks (e.g. a standard "I" pattern for most forms), and I believe they are therefore a little easier to learn.
-Chris
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I have only ever learned palgwe forms as our GM does not like the taeguek forms because he believes they are too easy. I saw a tkd demo at my kids school fete a few weeks ago and they did the taegueks and it was the first time Ive really had a good look at them and I didnt like them at all, but then Im probably biased as all I know are the palgwe forms.
OP
OP
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Does anyone think either form set (or individual hyung for that matter) suggest a certain fighting method or philosophy? Or are they just basics strung together? If the first, please explain further.
Forms should be a bit of a guide for the style you're doing. They should include the basics, but from the way the form is performed, you should also see stances and movement. I only did Taekwondo for four years as a competitive collegiate player, but I did learn both Palgwe and Taeguk poomse.
The Palgwe poomse are still practiced by some, but were supposed to be phased out in what, 1971? Someone who is more of a historian on poomse will have to correct me if I'm wrong. I know that officially, the Kukkiwon only recognizes the Taeguk poomse. In the Palgwe poomse, I see more power generated. The focus on technique and rigidity, especially in stances, tells me that the poomse are used to develop strength, technique, and discipline. Strength is the key here. Deeper stances will make your legs stronger. Ask anyone who has done strict JKA Shotokan. This tells me that the strength of a single technique is extremely important. Strong punches, kicks, and blocks are a focus of the style. Dig up really old footage of TKD sparring from the 50s and 60s and you'll see that they fight from deeper stances, and they're trying to knock each other out, not score points.
Now, look at the modern Taeguk poomse. The more popular Olympic TKD got, and the more electronic scoring, and scoring in general started to matter, the higher the walking stance got. The current iteration has you nearly standing straight up. Now, look at the way TKD players fight these days. They fight in higher stances, using mobility and speed rather than strength (not that their kicks aren't strong, that's not what I'm saying at all), and they rely on movement. The Taeguk poomse reflect this. Higher stances for mobility is a big check. You fight the way you practice, and if you do a lot of forms standing in a higher stance, you are sure going to rely on that kind of stance when you fight.
That's just my opinion. Like I said, I only did Taekwondo for four years, which means I'm definitely no expert, and I definitely wasn't alive when they decided to make the change haha.
The Palgwe poomse are still practiced by some, but were supposed to be phased out in what, 1971? Someone who is more of a historian on poomse will have to correct me if I'm wrong. I know that officially, the Kukkiwon only recognizes the Taeguk poomse. In the Palgwe poomse, I see more power generated. The focus on technique and rigidity, especially in stances, tells me that the poomse are used to develop strength, technique, and discipline. Strength is the key here. Deeper stances will make your legs stronger. Ask anyone who has done strict JKA Shotokan. This tells me that the strength of a single technique is extremely important. Strong punches, kicks, and blocks are a focus of the style. Dig up really old footage of TKD sparring from the 50s and 60s and you'll see that they fight from deeper stances, and they're trying to knock each other out, not score points.
Now, look at the modern Taeguk poomse. The more popular Olympic TKD got, and the more electronic scoring, and scoring in general started to matter, the higher the walking stance got. The current iteration has you nearly standing straight up. Now, look at the way TKD players fight these days. They fight in higher stances, using mobility and speed rather than strength (not that their kicks aren't strong, that's not what I'm saying at all), and they rely on movement. The Taeguk poomse reflect this. Higher stances for mobility is a big check. You fight the way you practice, and if you do a lot of forms standing in a higher stance, you are sure going to rely on that kind of stance when you fight.
That's just my opinion. Like I said, I only did Taekwondo for four years, which means I'm definitely no expert, and I definitely wasn't alive when they decided to make the change haha.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
The part in your second paragraph regarding rigidity and power in stances sounds like my GM talking. He refused to change to the taegeuks and always goes on about long, deep stances and the strength they build in the legs and his students all fight in longer stances more similar to the tkd from the 50's and 60's you spoke of. In regards to power, we are taught that EVERY strike is to cause maximum damage to the opponent even if its part of a combo and the palgwe forms do resemble this I feel. Scoring points, or talking of scoring points is pretty much taboo where I train. He is not happy when he sees students in shorter stances which is probably why he kept on teaching the palgwes. Im not sure what year they were phased out but he moved to australia in 1974 and has not changed anything from the way he was taught in korea at the time so it may have been later that they phased them out but Im not sure.
chungdokwan123
Orange Belt
I'm not of high enough rank nor do I possess the appropriate amount of experience to expertly comment on this particular topic, but at a glance....here's where I come down on it: I say learn and practice both styles of poomse. Could it not be reckoned that there is something to be learned from both? The Palgwe forms seem a bit richer in content....the Taeguk forms seem to be a bit more to the point....and I agree easier to learn. We are taught the Taeguk forms and I love them....but I learn the Palgwe equivalent on my own in order to increase my curriculum.....and perhaps to help preserve that which came before.
Now....am I full of crap or can anyone see something of substance in my thoughts on this matter?
Now....am I full of crap or can anyone see something of substance in my thoughts on this matter?
"ut I learn the Palgwe equivalent on my own in order to increase my curriculum.....and perhaps to help preserve that which came before."
Well the problem with that is the Kukkiwon put out the Palgwe and then the Tae Geuk and they have said please just teach and practice the current versions of the forms. Why preserve what was in place originally for only a few years (literally), when the entire system supports and wants the focus to be on the one set of forms.
I am also starting to think less forms but better practice of them is the way to go.
Well the problem with that is the Kukkiwon put out the Palgwe and then the Tae Geuk and they have said please just teach and practice the current versions of the forms. Why preserve what was in place originally for only a few years (literally), when the entire system supports and wants the focus to be on the one set of forms.
I am also starting to think less forms but better practice of them is the way to go.
Well, I know that the taegeuk poomsae each trace out a Chinese character. If I am not mistaken, however, the Palgwe forms do the same.
1. Kion (Heaven; Beginning of creation of all things in the universe)
2. Tae (lake; Inner hardness and outer gentleness)
3. Yi (fire; Hot & Bright, sense of Justice and ardor for training)
4. Jin (thunder; Great power and dignity)
5. Sohn (wind; Mighty force and calmness according to strength and weakness)
6. Kahm (water; Incessant flow and softness)
7. Kahn (mountain; Pondersity and firmness, wisdom and stability)
8. Kohn (earth; The root and settlement, and also, the beginning and end)
I think that the major difference is that Palgwe forms are more hands oriented, and as has been noted, performed mostly in a long stance and have no walking stances.
Taegeuk forms have more kicks and a greater variety of stances, so they do have a greater dynamism to them in that there is more transition.
I have the Palgwe forms on video and have watched them. I like them, but I also like the Taegeuk poomsae as well. I'm generally not of the opinion that one is superior to the other so much as it is the effective practice of the forms that is more important (to refrain DOrtiz).
If I were going for more of a Korean Karate feel to my studio, I would be more inclined to use the Palgwe forms.
Daniel
I agree, but there are certainly schools that do have more of a karate flavor that consider themselves taekwondo and not TSD.
I've also heard people say that they like the Palgwe forms specficially because they are more 'karate-like' than Taegeuk forms.
I figure that if someone wants to learn them, great. If a school owner chooses to use them, again, that is also their own choice, neither good nor bad.
Daniel
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
palgwe forms do incorporate front stance, back stance, horse riding stance and a short front stance (such as in the first line of palgwe 8), so they still do have a good range of stances throughout.
goingd
Purple Belt
I study and teach both sets of forms, and they each have their advantages. However, I strongly prefer the Taegeuks. The were designed to be more easy to learn, but that does not mean they do not emphasize power and stability in addition to speed and more natural motion. Should I be teaching my own program, I would teach only the Taegeuks before black belt.
I see the substance in what you're saying, in fact I tend to think the same. Why waste the effort of creating the palgwe's if nobody learns them?! They should be reinstatet to official curriculum, just for the History's sake. It's silly how they were the official set only so many years.
I also dig the "korean karate" wibe of them and as all the club's are on their summer brake, I use my time to learn the old forms and enjoy the swish of the leaves of History.
I feel also that I get some actual technical learning out of the palgwe. The taegeuks are way too simple. Why everything has to be easy? This is another reason why the palgwe's should be reinstated. They are more complicated and you learn more of them.
Lots of people learn them.
I see the problem. You think the Kukkiwon is the sum total of Taekwondo, is that right?
You're wrong about that.
Because the Kukkiwon considers 1st Dan to be a beginner rank, which is commonly awarded after as little as one year of training. That's their stance, and that is what the Taegeuk poomsae were designed for.
If you don't like that, go to a non-KKW school.
There are plenty of reasons for practicing the Palgwae forms. But what you're saying isn't on the list.
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Gwai Lo Dan
3rd Black Belt
Uhh....you know that he "said" that 13 years ago right?
