Otroverts

They are entitled to voice their opinions and biases. ā€œThis little light of mineā€¦ā€
People do have the right to an opinion. Even when they are wrong.

Of course everyone else has the right to not take them seriously. The more so, the more they express their opinions bluntly, or with brutal honesty.
 
All have to say on this right, wrong, opinion thing, is over the years I have grown to greatly appreciate the frankness of the Chinese people I know. My wife and shifus, I have had, in particularly. And many times it has made me chuckle.
 
People do have the right to an opinion. Even when they are wrong.
Controversially, I don’t beieve in free speech because with it comes great responsibility that many are unable to uphold; Andrew Tate, Nazis, Kristi Noem, Katie Hopkins, Nigel Farage, RFK Jr… You can have your opinions but you shouldn’t necessarily be allowed to broadcast it out into the wider world without prior scrutiny because too many people are unable to differentiate the likely from the unlikely.
Of course everyone else has the right to not take them seriously. The more so, the more they express their opinions bluntly, or with brutal honesty.
The problem with that is an increasingly significant proportion of the world who are susceptible to flashy talk (or not so flashy!) rather than the content of that speech. I was beautifully articulated as Socrates’ Ship.
 
All have to say on this right, wrong, opinion thing, is over the years I have grown to greatly appreciate the frankness of the Chinese people I know. My wife and shifus, I have had, in particularly. And many times it has made me chuckle.
I think about 23 years ago in Beijing, me and two German friends arranged to have a chauffeur to drive us to our teachers(Yiquan) house for the morning practice and teachings,
The chauffeur greeted us every morning with ā€œheil hitlerā€ and an outstretched in salute arm, he was a good driver and the car was spacious, my German friends were just staying for a week, so we endured, after I continued as usual to go by bus and subway.
Chinese(in China) can say and act in the most blunt ways - you’re fat!, you’re bald, or just point toward a foreigner -ā€œ look !ā€ - loudly enough to alert friend and surroundings the anyway obvious that ā€œthere’s a foreigner ā€œ.
-ā€œYou have hairy legsā€, and then putting a hand on my leg, a Taxi driver once did, nothing about some of those words the other guys in this thread discussing, just a factual
sincere statement as Chinese(in China)often tend to do.
 
I think about 23 years ago in Beijing, me and two German friends arranged to have a chauffeur to drive us to our teachers(Yiquan) house for the morning practice and teachings,
The chauffeur greeted us every morning with ā€œheil hitlerā€ and an outstretched in salute arm, he was a good driver and the car was spacious, my German friends were just staying for a week, so we endured, after I continued as usual to go by bus and subway.
Chinese(in China) can say and act in the most blunt ways - you’re fat!, you’re bald, or just point toward a foreigner -ā€œ look !ā€ - loudly enough to alert friend and surroundings the anyway obvious that ā€œthere’s a foreigner ā€œ.
-ā€œYou have hairy legsā€, and then putting a hand on my leg, a Taxi driver once did, nothing about some of those words the other guys in this thread discussing, just a factual
sincere statement as Chinese(in China)often tend to do.
Ok, the hitler thing is a bit to much, especially directed at Germans. Frankness and rudeness are not the same to me.

Last time in Beijing , at the forbidden city, 3 young guys walking next to me where talking about my nose. After a bit i turned and looked at them and said , i speak Mandarin. They were shocked and thrilled, now they wanted to talk to me. My mandarin is not that great for a full speed Beijing conversation so I refused, mostly based on they were young and disrespectful.

But on a bus, the first time in Beijing, with my wife, a little girl, sitting next to her mother asked her mother, ā€œhow can she speak to a guy with yellow hairā€ that was cute and funny

My mother-in-law said to me, and my parents, after my wife and I were married. I never thought my daughter would marry someone with yellow hair, but it ok, i like him.

My sister-in-laws sister-in-law, diring a duck dinner that the extended Chinese family gave fir my wife and myself, after about 20 minutes of sitting there listening to all the voices around me, looked at me and said ā€œ you don’t understand a thing we’re saying, do you.ā€ I knew that was targeted at ne because she was looking directly at me, and talked slowly. I was able to basically say, I understood very little. She laughed and the conversation went on without me. But i did learn how to better pronounce Beijing Mandarin that day

I get stared at quite a lot in Beijing, it is entertaining to me. I’m generally wearing sunglasses so they can’t see that i see then. But take the sunglasses off, all of a sudden they are looking anywhere but at me.

But get rude in Beijing, or anywhere in China, in Mandarin, with my wife there, she will feed back. Beijingren are good at that.

However the frankness i like are things like my Shifu once did. Guy comes to class with a small glass skull, showing it to everybody and talking about how it sat for 24 hours near the famous crystal skull. And how much energy you could feel. He handed it to my shifu, who then said ā€œfeels like cold stoneā€ then handed it to me…. He was right. I guess it is the brutal honesty I appreciate.
 
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I think about 23 years ago in Beijing, me and two German friends arranged to have a chauffeur to drive us to our teachers(Yiquan) house for the morning practice and teachings,
The chauffeur greeted us every morning with ā€œheil hitlerā€ and an outstretched in salute arm, he was a good driver and the car was spacious, my German friends were just staying for a week, so we endured, after I continued as usual to go by bus and subway.
Chinese(in China) can say and act in the most blunt ways - you’re fat!, you’re bald, or just point toward a foreigner -ā€œ look !ā€ - loudly enough to alert friend and surroundings the anyway obvious that ā€œthere’s a foreigner ā€œ.
-ā€œYou have hairy legsā€, and then putting a hand on my leg, a Taxi driver once did, nothing about some of those words the other guys in this thread discussing, just a factual
sincere statement as Chinese(in China)often tend to do.
When I worked in a psychology department we had several Chinese post-grad students doing Work psychology masters with regards call centres. They said very similar things about what is deemed perfectly acceptable to say in China compared to the West. They added that if a person was seen smiling all the time (as customer-facing staff are often told to do) without good reason, they were considered simpletons! šŸ˜†

I think a Nazi salute is probably taken things a bit far, however! It’s actually illegal to perform this movement in Germany and is a criminal offense.
 
An otrovert is a recently identified, "third" personality type—introduced by psychiatrist Dr. Rami Kaminski in 2025—describing individuals who are comfortable in social situations but feel like permanent outsiders who never fully merge with groups. Derived from "otro" (other), they are characterized by extreme independence, original thinking, and a preference for deep one-on-one connections over group belonging.

Eh nothing new in the zoo.

Jung identified this decades ago.

Otroversion is not a type, it's a state of psychic withdrawal of either the empathic ambivert, extravert, or introvert.

It's a process and subconscious necessity.

 
They’re more likely introverts whereas otroverts simply don’t have any group mentality; they don’t understand tribalism

They most certainly do, such as their apathy drives them to withdrawal because of the tribalism in which they find themselves embroiled in.

I'm hugely sceptical about this otroversion "revelation" as a rebranded Jungian archetype.
 
I get the impression that these 'types' aren't widely used in modern psychiatry anyway. My therapist calls them 'astrology for people with six figure incomes'.
 
I get the impression that these 'types' aren't widely used in modern psychiatry anyway. My therapist calls them 'astrology for people with six figure incomes'.

They are most certainly used, I've cited recent papers in academia.

Therapists specialise in different things, some in substance abuse, gay conversion, marriage counselling, and Jungian psychoanalysis.

Modern psychology is flooded with "new" models, theories, taxonomies that in the end all coalesce to nearly centuries old psychological literature, just in a new colour.

Like I said — nothing new in the zoo.

The new stuff is happening in neuroscience at the moment. That having been said, humanity has cut ties with its spiritual awareness. People think dreams are random, they're accustomed to fast food, fast dating, fast media, fast fashion.

Everyone is in so much of a rush to not consider themselves let alone others. Dopamine receptors are fried, oxytocin is scarce because we lack connection with each other least of all ourselves, serotonin has been hijacked by associative tangibility, and I struggle to have a conversation deeply about anything to anyone.

Preoccupied with themselves, but not their self.
 
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Speaking of psychiatry, I have a cousin who's like me- but worse. You see, I can sometimes be irresponsible, bad things happen when I'm bored, and I have a natural resilience to discipline, self control and temperance. The difference is I genuinely feel sorry for the situations and mishaps I create and I'm keenly aware of the impact that my behaviour has on others. My cousin doesn't- and it can be scary. The family often wonders what's wrong with him.
 
Speaking of psychiatry, I have a cousin who's like me- but worse. You see, I can sometimes be irresponsible, bad things happen when I'm bored, and I have a natural resilience to discipline, self control and temperance. The difference is I genuinely feel sorry for the situations and mishaps I create and I'm keenly aware of the impact that my behaviour has on others. My cousin doesn't- and it can be scary. The family often wonders what's wrong with him.

That sounds more like a difference in empathy or conscience than anything related to pathology or archetypes. Feeling remorse for your actions is a separate psychological dimension, and very human.

We often forget how much our personalities, our temperaments, are uniquely ours beyond the necessity for therapy or diagnosing pathological disorders.
 
Speaking of psychiatry, I have a cousin who's like me- but worse. You see, I can sometimes be irresponsible, bad things happen when I'm bored, and I have a natural resilience to discipline, self control and temperance. The difference is I genuinely feel sorry for the situations and mishaps I create and I'm keenly aware of the impact that my behaviour has on others. My cousin doesn't- and it can be scary. The family often wonders what's wrong with him.
There is sometimes also the double cognitive emphaty problem where people wonder whats wrong with each other. Maybe he wonders the same in the opposite way. Beeing asked to excuse yourself, when its just how you are or autoregulation in play, can be interpreted as disrespect as well. Can easily get into, accept me as I am or f*k off.
 
All have to say on this right, wrong, opinion thing, is over the years I have grown to greatly appreciate the frankness of the Chinese people I know. My wife and shifus, I have had, in particularly. And many times it has made me chuckle.
Well, I guess since the discussion of Otroverts is now a discussion about other things, I'll toss my nickel into the kitty.

When people describe themselves as "brutally honest", generally they're really just unfiltered, feel entitled to say things that are hurtful and insulting, and expect everyone else to accommodate them. "Brutal" is doing a lot more work than "honest" in that description.

I appreciate frank, direct discussion, and am quite direct at times. I also think it's possible to be direct, and kind and empathetic. Honesty without consideration is just assholery.
 
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