Original Attacks in SKK

[punisher73]

I have read on many threads and websites that the defensive manuevers/combinations weren't always designed for a stepthrough right punch. This came later during the widespread business model came about.

What were the original attacks for the DM's 1-26 up thru black?

 

[MJS]

I have read on many threads and websites that the defensive manuevers/combinations weren't always designed for a stepthrough right punch. This came later during the widespread business model came about.

What were the original attacks for the DM's 1-26 up thru black?

Thats an interesting question, and one that I'm curious about as well. I say that, because I was taught that all of the attacks were punches. I thought it was kinda odd that nothing else was covered. Any grab, kick, club or knife techs. were 'extras' that were taught. For example...you needed to have, say, 4 club defenses for blue belt. It was pretty much up to you to make sure you got that stuff. Hmm...why wasn't it taught with the rest of the stuff? Maybe it was, just not at my school, although one would think that all Villari schools would be teaching the same material, seeing that they are all chains. That'd be like a McDonalds in Ca. not serving fries, instead substituting them for tater tots, while all the other chains sell fries.

 

[FeralKenpo]

Thats an interesting question, and one that I'm curious about as well. I say that, because I was taught that all of the attacks were punches. I thought it was kinda odd that nothing else was covered. Any grab, kick, club or knife techs. were 'extras' that were taught. For example...you needed to have, say, 4 club defenses for blue belt. It was pretty much up to you to make sure you got that stuff. Hmm...why wasn't it taught with the rest of the stuff? Maybe it was, just not at my school, although one would think that all Villari schools would be teaching the same material, seeing that they are all chains. That'd be like a McDonalds in Ca. not serving fries, instead substituting them for tater tots, while all the other chains sell fries.

Although we also train all the combinations off of a right step through punch, we also train TONS of grab defenses(wrists, lapels, chokes, back chokes, bearhugs, clubs, knives, guns, headlocks, full nelsons etc) almost as much as we train the combos.

Although the grab defenses aren't as set in stone as the combinations, we train them just as much. So we don't train the other stuff as 'extra' we just train it like it's everything else as a whole.

I've also read and wondered about what the combinations would be good for. Some are good for step through punch defense and some are better for other things. IMO it is the movement and the muscle memory that is most important.

-Feral

 

[DavidCC]

hmmm.. I have a video that shows some very old Pesare and Cerio and Gascon training, I will go take a look at that and see what they are doing. I've watched it, when I got it a few years ago, but can't remember exactly how the attacker was punching...

 

[MJS]

Although we also train all the combinations off of a right step through punch, we also train TONS of grab defenses(wrists, lapels, chokes, back chokes, bearhugs, clubs, knives, guns, headlocks, full nelsons etc) almost as much as we train the combos.

Although the grab defenses aren't as set in stone as the combinations, we train them just as much. So we don't train the other stuff as 'extra' we just train it like it's everything else as a whole.

I've also read and wondered about what the combinations would be good for. Some are good for step through punch defense and some are better for other things. IMO it is the movement and the muscle memory that is most important.

-Feral

I may be wrong, but I think there was a thread around here somewhere on the subject of using the techs. against other attacks. I'll have to dig around for it.

As for the way things were taught...maybe it did vary from school to school, instructor to inst. Of course, when I switched to EPAK, I did find it interesting that a variety of attacks were covered in each belt level. I mean, you'd have at least 24 techs., depending on the school, at each belt level, that taught defenses against punches, to also include roundhouse and upper cut, clubs, knife, grabs, kicks, etc.

I'll look for that other thread.

Mike

 

[ackks10]

sorry about jumping in here, but when i started kenpo (65) and all though growing up in kenpo,yes we had punches, but we had tackle tecqs,and someone grabing from F/B-and the good old roundhouse punch,than there was the punch with the Left/Right combo/R/F combo,there was alot of stuff
heres one,a two hand grab from the front/and from behind,i'm sorry about jumping in here.

 

[punisher73]

Ed Parker's kenpo has always had specific techniques for specific attacks. Shaolin Kempo came from the line of kajukenbo into Karazenpo Goshin Jutsu and then through Nick Cerio and finally Fred Villari.

From what I gather the techniques used to be taught for various attacks, although when you look at the "modern" or recent breakdown they are all for a stepthrough right punch, even though originally that wasn't the case.

I know that Mr. Cunnigham was there in the beginning and some others who I hoped might shed some light on the first 26 DM's as they were originally done.

 

[MJS]

sorry about jumping in here, but when i started kenpo (65) and all though growing up in kenpo,yes we had punches, but we had tackle tecqs,and someone grabing from F/B-and the good old roundhouse punch,than there was the punch with the Left/Right combo/R/F combo,there was alot of stuff
heres one,a two hand grab from the front/and from behind,i'm sorry about jumping in here.

Hey George!

Hope that all is well. Please, don't be sorry about jumping in. Your opinion is more than welcome.

Regarding the things that you mentioned....when I started my SKK training, I saw none of that. If it even existed, is beyond me. However, once I went to Parker and Tracy...well, lets just say my eyes were opened wide with the assortment of things in those techs.

Talk to you soon.

 

[Jdokan]

one would think that all Villari schools would be teaching the same material, seeing that they are all chains. That'd be like a McDonalds in Ca. not serving fries, instead substituting them for tater tots, while all the other chains sell fries.[/quote]

You're mostly right...From my experiences the basic materials combo's 1-20 were taught & mostly the same...I had seen variations from some schools...the forms varied even more so....that may have been from my instructors "interpretation" (maybe lack of memory...who knows) once they left their own lessons/workouts....
As far as application...I was taught using them against traditional step through punches. Though also shown how they could be used in other applications.....

 

[DavidCC]

Our version of SKK includes techs for grabs, knives, clubs, and guns.

 

[JTKenpo]

As for the original intent, who knows but truth is there whether taught or not. One of the biggest leaps in my own understanding of the skk material came after I started cross referencing other arts. For example if we look at snapping twig from american kenpo and combo #16 from skk the opening move is identical, all be it on the opposite side. So taking this example it makes a lot more sense to control the pushing arm of an attacker rather then try to catch their punch in mid air with two off set heel palms. So if we look at #16 as a push rather then a punch we see a different attack where the tech is more applicable. Again, this is my interpretations and I am not stating this as absolute, but it makes sense to me.

 

[KempoShaun]

According to Sijo Gascon, a man I had the pleasure of talking with, the original attack for 1-26 were overhand right punches.

 

[dianhsuhe]

Seifer- Do you really think we need another "version" of Kempo/Kenpo?

Also, do you think you can fit more stuff on your gi top?

 

[punisher73]

According to Sijo Gascon, a man I had the pleasure of talking with, the original attack for 1-26 were overhand right punches.

That seems odd, If you go to youtube to KenpoJoe, he has DM #16 as being for a "push" and that DM #3 was for a right cross, which is why you strike the groin (it's open) as opposed to a stepthrough that closes it off for the punch. He says that these were the original attacks in Karazenpo Goshin Jutsu.

I understand that Sijo Gascon was the person responsible for putting those techs together, but the movements, don't seem to match ALL of them being an overhand right. Was it an overhand right cross, or a stepthrough type manuever like is commonly taught.

It seems weird that everyone talks about the original attacks, but no one says what they were.

 

[MJS]

Here is that other thread I was talking about.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62546

No intention to sidetrack this thread, as I'd like to hear more about the topic. However, if anyone is interested in reading and/or contributing to that other thread, feel free.

 

[punisher73]

Our version of SKK includes techs for grabs, knives, clubs, and guns.

I think that most do under Villari. These are taught as seperate techniques as I understand them and are not taught as such in the defensive manuevers

 

[amcgroup]

My understanding from my training is that as new students the techniques are taught against the right step through front punch to allow the student to learn the techniques.

As the student advances the the student would also do the techniques against a straght right punch similiar to a boxers jab and then in the BB ranks done again against a left hand attack both step through and jab.

I was told that during the development of Kajukenbo the defenses were developed to fight agianst boxers who were apparently common opponents around the military bases in Hawai. Maybe one the Kajukenbo students could confirm this.

The step through right punch training is only supposed to be used for training purposes until the students reaction time is sharper and they can handle the faster attacks from straight right or left hands off of the lead foot which would more accurately replicate real fighting.

I've seen techniques now done off of hook and rounhouse punches by instructors who claim thats how the original combinations were supposed to be trained.

I was trained that if you can block a straight lead punch and turn it into a defensive counter as done in the numbered combinations then you could block anything coming at you.

The training is supposed to be a continual learning process which should get harder as the student becomes more advanced. Although every video I now see has all of the techniques done against the so called step through right hand strike, maybe its another part of the training thats been lost throughout the years.

 

[KempoShaun]

Seifer- Do you really think we need another "version" of Kempo/Kenpo?

Also, do you think you can fit more stuff on your gi top?

I'm sorry if I somehow offended you...

 

[marlon]

I have read on many threads and websites that the defensive manuevers/combinations weren't always designed for a stepthrough right punch. This came later during the widespread business model came about.

What the original attacks for the DM's 1-26 up thru black?

I have a copy of what are supposed to be the original attacks from a very reliable source. They are not as varied as one would think,however, they do vary. As I was taugt and teach there are techniques for difersnt attacks. My teacher Shihan I, teaches these type of attacks as principles more than set techniquues. I am considering this direction,myself. In the end I am saying that the curricullum does address various attacks. Others and myself seem to have taken to making sure that the students can use the combination techniques and the animal/ kempo techniques against varying attacks even though the ideal teaching phase is done with a straight step through punch. Btw those are fast things to deal with.


Respectfully,
Marlon
Marlin

 

[DavidCC]

I pulled out the Pesare Kempo history DVD, and looked at technique training form the mid-50s through the 70s.

Earliest footage showed attackers using a haymaker right - looping right hand, with right foot trailing to a 'step-thru'.

Later, when he was in New England, training a young Nick Cerio, Roger Carpenter... they were attacking with a left foot forward right cross.

Even later, they were using the step-thru punch we see today - right foot leads a straight right punch.

It's a great video, contact GM Pesare and get one!