Orgs. what is the real passion

terryl965

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We all know about orgs. A.A.U., USAT, USTC and ATA just to name a few. I have sat in on meetings and listen to them say it is about our members, athletes and coaches. When in reality it is truely about nhow much money they can make and how much the CEO's and board member can make off of them. With the economy the way it is going would you not think they would do everything in there powers to make things better for there members?

Lets take USAT for instance they are probaly the highest with entry fee's and coaches certification and really give nothing back to all athletes. They simply make team members find the money to compete at venue, sure they have that sripen or whatever you would like to call it but at what expense to our team. If we have a team should they not take care of there athletes with at least travel expensive and entry fee's.

AAU at least help support there National Teams with being a bigger personby providing an all expense paid tournament for them once a year. But even withthat they do not cover expenses for them to get together and train with the National team training get togethers. I see them as the better org in the country that could expand on helping make regianal get together in four different area's and sending the AAU coaches would be greatly appreciated by all. I know Master Friello has been more than fair with everything over the years and believe the AAU is moving and improving every year, this would be a great thing to do in the future.

USTC is newer and have a way to go, what I understand they do not provide any type of National team so I really do not understand what there National is for except just another tournament and money generator for the org? I would loveto har the views from someof them about what there long plain goals are with tournaments and such, so I could draw a better conclusion.

ATA is another org that I see no value from tournaments and a money making machine so if any ATA people would like to chimein great.

I do not want this to turn out to be a bash on D.A and what is going on with the USAT so please start other threads for that, this is simply about the athletes and what the orgs really offer them as far as a grassroot program, aNational Team or even the Olympics. I am trying to understand what is truely being done for the athletes in question?
 

granfire

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Good question, but knock me over with a feather if I know what their agenda is.

I think they start off on the right food. Usually they try to improve on the organization they split from. Less politics, improved structure etc...but then they seem to lose the spark.

It's like the cool game you invent on the play ground: as the day goes by you add more and more rules, by the end of the day it's nothing like what you started out with and you know you won't ever have the same fun with it if you should try to play it again.

Like the ITA: It started out as an Alliance of independent school owners, to supply them with a frame and network. I am assuming the ATA politics got to the founders.

But as the time went on they turned the Alliance into a franchise (how in the world did they do that? I mean legally) And now it looks like a Mickey Mouse outfit that changes as the wind blows...

One should not have to look at the leadership with the question in mind "What are they smoking"

But I don't see the tournaments as a big money making scheme. I would think that they are usually lucky if they break close to even. But they are - or can be the glue that hold it all together.
 
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terryl965

terryl965

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Well I see it as they do make money from it, the membership fee's also make money. Let say 10,000 member at $24.00 what is that $240,000 just in membership a year. Lets say they only make 33% profit from a tournament with everything, I mean all cost involve. So if a tournament generates 1000 conpetitors at $100 a piece that is $100,000 and another 200 coaches at $50.00 is another $10,000 plus entry fee's of an average of $10.00 a person so let say 2000 people so another $20,000 that equals $130,000 for the weekend. Let say they pay roughly $25,000 for the venue and another $10,000 in actual out of pocket cost, so we minus $35,000 from $130,000 so they make roughly $95,000 for a weekend. The number maybe off a little but not much, tournament are a big generator of money both for the school owners and for the org putting them on.
 

granfire

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Well I see it as they do make money from it, the membership fee's also make money. Let say 10,000 member at $24.00 what is that $240,000 just in membership a year. Lets say they only make 33% profit from a tournament with everything, I mean all cost involve. So if a tournament generates 1000 conpetitors at $100 a piece that is $100,000 and another 200 coaches at $50.00 is another $10,000 plus entry fee's of an average of $10.00 a person so let say 2000 people so another $20,000 that equals $130,000 for the weekend. Let say they pay roughly $25,000 for the venue and another $10,000 in actual out of pocket cost, so we minus $35,000 from $130,000 so they make roughly $95,000 for a weekend. The number maybe off a little but not much, tournament are a big generator of money both for the school owners and for the org putting them on.


Your mileage may vary. One local school put on the regional tournament and from what I heard it was not breaking even, but that's not here nor there. I am sure the head Org got it's cut. (BTW they don't pay judges...)
 

sfs982000

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I'm currently associated with an ATA school going on 2 and a half years now. They do alot of competing in tournaments, but our instructors have never pressured anyone into competing if they don't want to. As far as the organization as a whole goes, I can only speak from what I've personally experienced with my school and the experience as a whole has been positive.
 
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terryl965

terryl965

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I'm currently associated with an ATA school going on 2 and a half years now. They do alot of competing in tournaments, but our instructors have never pressured anyone into competing if they don't want to. As far as the organization as a whole goes, I can only speak from what I've personally experienced with my school and the experience as a whole has been positive.

I am not saying the orgs are not positive they mostly are, the point is what are they giving back to the athletes and school owners since they are making money from everything?
 

miguksaram

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We all know about orgs. A.A.U., USAT, USTC and ATA just to name a few. I have sat in on meetings and listen to them say it is about our members, athletes and coaches. When in reality it is truely about nhow much money they can make and how much the CEO's and board member can make off of them. With the economy the way it is going would you not think they would do everything in there powers to make things better for there members?
Ummm...when did you sit in on a USTC meeting? If you have you would know that Pres. Lee hasn't made any money off of the USTC. In fact they have lost money out of their own pockets supporting the different opportunities they have given to both members and non-members.

What would you recommend USTC to do to make things better for their members?

USTC is newer and have a way to go, what I understand they do not provide any type of National team so I really do not understand what there National is for except just another tournament and money generator for the org? I would love to hear the views from some of them about what there long plain goals are with tournaments and such, so I could draw a better conclusion.

USTC's main focus is not an athletic program or athletes, it never was. It is focused on the schools and taekwondoin themselves. We offer opportunities to further educate instructors and students in culture, history and scholastics of TKD. It is my understanding that through the membership fees collected we are able to help finance such endeavors such as KKW FIC or US Open Hanmadang.

As for the US Open/National Hanmadang it is a national tournament that we invite all TKD people and even non-tkd people to come and participate in. It is a festive celebration of TKD, it is not meant to select the next US National Team to represent us in Korea. I believe there is already a program for that.

So USTC is trying to serve all the participants of TKD not just the selected few athletes.
 
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terryl965

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Ummm...when did you sit in on a USTC meeting? If you have you would know that Pres. Lee hasn't made any money off of the USTC. In fact they have lost money out of their own pockets supporting the different opportunities they have given to both members and non-members.
What would you recommend USTC to do to make things better for their members?

No never have sit on USTC so you are right, on the other hand why are they not providing more info for potential people. I have tried to talk to them about there direction for over a year and I always get the same response. To me this is not a real response, if training people the right way of traditional TKD, than why are they not making state association with qualify people so we do not have to go to Chicago for eveything? Believe me some of what I have heard is positive but still they are making money and I cannot see how they are losing any? I have a major in math and have been a CPA for years and the thought of the money that comes in for them to say they make nothing is just not right. especially when they are telling people to sell hot chocolate for profit and that is how a certain person afforded his expensive car.



USTC's main focus is not an athletic program or athletes, it never was. It is focused on the schools and taekwondoin themselves. We offer opportunities to further educate instructors and students in culture, history and scholastics of TKD. It is my understanding that through the membership fees collected we are able to help finance such endeavors such as KKW FIC or US Open Hanmadang.

As for the US Open/National Hanmadang it is a national tournament that we invite all TKD people and even non-tkd people to come and participate in. It is a festive celebration of TKD, it is not meant to select the next US National Team to represent us in Korea. I believe there is already a program for that.

So USTC is trying to serve all the participants of TKD not just the selected few athletes.


The above part I like but for them to tell me they make not one cent of profit baffles me, I would love to see the books and what is being paid fopr those that are running the org?



Like I saidI do not know everything and I am willing to listen to an intelligent converstation but for someone to tell me they make no money PLEASE I did not get off the boat yesterday.
 

puunui

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The above part I like but for them to tell me they make not one cent of profit baffles me, I would love to see the books and what is being paid fopr those that are running the org?


It baffles you because you started from a conclusion, that the purpose of an organization is to make profit. A better approach would be to start with a blank slate and objectively ask, "What is this organization about?" You then look at the organizing documents (bylaws) and compare the stated purposes in that with what is actually done.

The fact of the matter is that USTC was NOT created to make money for whoever. miguksaram is correct in that in fact the organization has lost money in providing opportunities to all Taekwondoin. The fees charged by USTC for its Kukkiwon programs and seminars are at cost or below cost. If you had attended any of the USTC seminars you would know this. Compare this to the stated costs of the recent MAC Kukkiwon instructor course, which was over double the cost of the same seminar hosted by USTC.

As for membership fees, those are not enforced and rarely collected, and as a result very little is brought in through that.

There is a US Open Taekwondo Hanmadang, but again that is done as a service to Taekwondoin. If it makes money, great. If not, ok.

No one is getting rich working with USTC. I know I am not, and I also have lost money by way of paying for my own trips to events, as well as opportunity costs of not being able to work while away on USTC business. Then there are the endless phone calls, drafting of letters and other documents, lunches, dinners, etc. which I end up paying for one way or the other. But I don't really care about the cost and haven't really added it all up. I do it because I believe in the mission of the USTC and US Kukkiwon, which is to provide Kukkiwon opportunities for education and certification to those who may have not had such opportunities in the past, for whatever reason. And I willingly and uncomplainingly do all of this, because at my stage of the journey, it is what I am supposed to be doing, volunteering my time and effort towards the big picture of making Taekwondo as inclusive as possible for everyone.
 

miguksaram

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No never have sit on USTC so you are right, on the other hand why are they not providing more info for potential people. I have tried to talk to them about there direction for over a year and I always get the same response.
Who did you talk to and what was the same response they are giving you?

To me this is not a real response, if training people the right way of traditional TKD, than why are they not making state association with qualify people so we do not have to go to Chicago for eveything?

They have provided FIC courses throughout the US. This year they will be offering them in TX, CA, & NJ. I believe we have three different areas which will be offering Hanmadang Referee and Rules Seminar. The first one being in Iowa. There will also be one in Chicago and one other place that I can not recall at this moment. So you don't have to go to Chicago for everything. Not sure where you are getting that from. The Hanmadang has been held in Chicago, but we are not sure if it will continue to be in Chicago after this year. It may move to another part of the country.

Believe me some of what I have heard is positive but still they are making money and I cannot see how they are losing any? I have a major in math and have been a CPA for years and the thought of the money that comes in for them to say they make nothing is just not right. especially when they are telling people to sell hot chocolate for profit and that is how a certain person afforded his expensive car.
President Lee and other officers actually have successful dojangs which they are making their money from. It is because of their success that they have been able to help finance the USTC where it fell short. GM Kim who has hosted the US Open/National Hanmadang lost close to $10K the first year. Not to mention the USTC lost a lot of $$$ on the World Hanmadang. During the 2009 the FIC courses were a loss as well. The participation rate was not what they expected the first time out so once again many of the officers chipped in their own money to finance it. Exact figures I do not have but perhaps Glenn might be able to help here.

I don't believe any USTC person has preached selling hot chocolate and even if they have what does that have to do with the org itself? That has to do with how to turn a profit in your dojang and that makes no money for USTC. The Hanmadang had a lot better attendance than prior, I do not know the exact numbers but I know it was not enough to make up for the $10K loss from the first one.

Like I said I do not know everything and I am willing to listen to an intelligent conversation but for someone to tell me they make no money PLEASE I did not get off the boat yesterday.
Keep in mind that USTC is still in its infancy so like any other business it is very likely that it is not profitable right away. That doesn't mean it can not turn a profit in the future. For now I have not seen or heard about them making bank off its members.
 
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terryl965

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Ok Glen and miguksaram, you are most likely right so I will keep an open mind with them. I will ask both of you this same question and you can respond by PM if you like. What is the common goal of the USTC, since alot of the one's in charge are from the old USTU? I mean they are not sport happy I can see that and I get promoting TKD here in the US but please give me a complete mission statement and what they plan on doing over the next five years? Like you said like any business they know they will loose money in the beginning but like any business they must have a projection of events followed by where they expect to be withen the first five years.

I would love to have a pure org for the betterment of TKD here in the US amd hopefully they are moving in that direction, but what about certifieing those that was already by USTU? I mean USAT did not for so many in the past, is USTC going to pick up the pieces for everybody and help them get what they lost with the lost of USTU?

I know I am probaly way of base with alot of things and I am very closed minded over the last few years as Glen has so elegently pointed out to me and for the record thank you Glen for that because until you really explained the way I was coming off, I did not relize it. So I will wait to hear and see what is best for my school and members, why does the USTC not care about membership fee's and if they do not why have them? Just curious that is all?
 

puunui

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What is the common goal of the USTC, since alot of the one's in charge are from the old USTU? I mean they are not sport happy I can see that and I get promoting TKD here in the US but please give me a complete mission statement and what they plan on doing over the next five years?


I told you what the goal is, to allow Americans to have greater access to Kukkiwon programs, events, seminars, training, education and certification. The whole point is to assist US based Taekwondoin gain access to the Kukkiwon and its programs.This includes poomsae seminars, Instructor Course seminars, Kukkiwon International Referee seminars, Hanmadang, Kukkiwon certification, etc.
 
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terryl965

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I told you what the goal is, to allow Americans to have greater access to Kukkiwon programs, events, seminars, training, education and certification. The whole point is to assist US based Taekwondoin gain access to the Kukkiwon and its programs.This includes poomsae seminars, Instructor Course seminars, Kukkiwon International Referee seminars, Hanmadang, Kukkiwon certification, etc.

Ok with poomsae are they going by KKW standerdsor WTF which is more sport poomsae? I would like what you have said to be expanded on like who will be conducting these seminars? How will they get this out to potentail school owners? Are they in the process of developing a state org for each state? Are they going to split into three or four regions with the home office being Chicago base? What steps are being done to help Americans become more of a voice withen TKD structure? Like I said I am really trying to keep an open mind and trying to picture the vision and how it will develope.:asian:
 

puunui

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So I will wait to hear and see what is best for my school and members, why does the USTC not care about membership fee's and if they do not why have them?


It's not that USTC doesn't care about membership fees. There is simply no way to enforce the membership fee issue, so we let that go. For course it would be good to have membership dues coming in to help run the organization, but the Kukkiwon does not require membership dues from those that they certify so, it is hard to make a convincing argument forcing people to pay dues. This is different from say other private organizations or even USAT, where membership dues are expected and therefore people pay without objection. Plus the economy is bad and USTC does not wish to take away from its dojang owners by taxing them and their students with a mandatory membership fee. The main point is again to assist members obtain Kukkiwon education and certification, something that many Taekwondoin have a very difficult time getting, for a variety of reasons.

The immediate Past President of the Kukkiwon, GM LEE Seung Wan, is very international minded. I first met him about twenty years ago when he came to Hawaii with the Tiger Team for demonstrations here. I have a picture of the two of us from that time, and the funny thing is that we both look almost exactly the same as we did back then. Seems we both are drinking from the same fountain of youth. :) GM LEE Seung Wan feels that more work can be done to help overseas Taekwondoin. It was his idea to create a branch system for the Kukkiwon to greater assist in the further education of our International Kukki Taekwondoin. I like the way he thinks and so I support him and his programs. He is what I picture an international leader to be like in my head.
 

miguksaram

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Ok with poomsae are they going by KKW standerdsor WTF which is more sport poomsae?
They will be going by KKW standards.
I would like what you have said to be expanded on like who will be conducting these seminars?
Past seminars have been conducted by KKW officials.

How will they get this out to potentail school owners? Are they in the process of developing a state org for each state? Are they going to split into three or four regions with the home office being Chicago base?
What would be the purpose of state or regional branches outside of someone closer to talk to?

What steps are being done to help Americans become more of a voice withen TKD structure? Like I said I am really trying to keep an open mind and trying to picture the vision and how it will develope.:asian:
By listening to their members and relaying those thoughts to the KKW directly.
 

puunui

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Ok with poomsae are they going by KKW standerdsor WTF which is more sport poomsae?

In my mind it should be the same thing, there is no Kukkiwon standard and WTF "sport" standard. The Kukkiwon is supposed to set the standard, that is their function in the Taekwondo world.


I would like what you have said to be expanded on like who will be conducting these seminars? How will they get this out to potentail school owners? Are they in the process of developing a state org for each state? Are they going to split into three or four regions with the home office being Chicago base? What steps are being done to help Americans become more of a voice withen TKD structure? Like I said I am really trying to keep an open mind and trying to picture the vision and how it will develope.:asian:

The questions you are asking depends on several things that are currently up in the air. There is no answer for these things at the moment. It is one of the reasons why it may be a very explosive year for the Kukkiwon.

I can tell you under the USTC, there was a plan to have state associations. Also the home office is located in Colorado Springs, where the president (GM Sang Lee) and the executive director (GM Bruce Harris) reside.

As for a voice in the taekwondo structure, I don't know what you are talking about. If you are talking about a voice in USAT or WTF, the USTC has nothing to do with that. You have to get your own voice through other avenues if you want a voice in that structure. If anything, USTC wants to stay out of all of that USAT stuff going on and has no interest in becoming the next NGB if and when USAT goes bankrupt or is decertified.

The vision is to again, help and assist American Taekwondoin in Kukkiwon education and certification opportunities, which in turn hopefully filters down to the dojang students of the instructors who attend the courses. That is pretty much it.
 
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terryl965

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Glen what I mean are members of USTC going to have a voice in the structure of the org. Maybe have real voting rights and such, I can appreciate everything you have said and would be willing to get further along with them as a org. I will go back and check out the website and such. Thamk you for your honesty on everything.
 

d1jinx

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Glen what I mean are members of USTC going to have a voice in the structure of the org. Maybe have real voting rights and such, I can appreciate everything you have said and would be willing to get further along with them as a org. I will go back and check out the website and such. Thamk you for your honesty on everything.

I'm not sure that would be neccessary. I mean, it sounds like the USTC wants to form an Education Structure. Not a sport or perfromance based like the others. I guess the only thing that might require a "vote" would be where to hold the next seminar. But even that is more dependant on Market. It wouldn't make sence to have it in an obscure location that is too costly for someone to travel too.

Maybe I am just missing what you are thinking.
 

puunui

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Glen what I mean are members of USTC going to have a voice in the structure of the org. Maybe have real voting rights and such, I can appreciate everything you have said and would be willing to get further along with them as a org.


Members always have a voice. We are always willing to listen to good ideas. But there really isn't that much to vote on. For example, some individuals have asked that we host a Kukkiwon Instructor Seminar in their area. Our response is if you can guarantee a certain amount of participants, then we can arrange that. Certain larger independent organizations have, for example, expressed an interest in hosting one, primarily for their members. We are always open to that sort of thing. The main rule: If the numbers add up and it helps to spread the Kukkiwon educational and certification goals, then of course we are interested in what you have to say. If there is something that we can do to improve the seminar experience, by all means, let us know.

USTC was created to serve as a conduit for Taekwondoin to the Kukkiwon. What are you interested in voicing your opinion on and what would you vote for or against?
 

puunui

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I'm not sure that would be neccessary. I mean, it sounds like the USTC wants to form an Education Structure. Not a sport or perfromance based like the others. I guess the only thing that might require a "vote" would be where to hold the next seminar. But even that is more dependant on Market. It wouldn't make sence to have it in an obscure location that is too costly for someone to travel too. Maybe I am just missing what you are thinking.


I think it goes back to the preconceived ideas thing, starting from a conclusion. USTC is a different kind of organization. It is not interested in making the same things that USAT or USTU pursued. The dynamics of those organizations requires a more proactive agenda setting stance, in order to preserve the rights of its members. Fighting for or voicing a say on electronic scoring for example, or having USTU/USAT members represented on key WTF committees, or as WTF officers sitting in the Executive Council, these are things that can influence or affect the rights of USTU/USAT athletes, coaches, etc.

USTC, in contrast, is interested in education and certification of Taekwondoin according to the Kukkiwon technical standards. It does not have an agenda or a mission outside of that. There may be some lobbying or political actions taken, for example in opposing the requirement that an instructor must possess an Instructor License in order to process Kukkiwon poom or dan certification. That kind of thing. But that is the exception, not the norm.

For the most part, the goal of USTC, or at least my goal within the USTC structure, is to give every single Taekwondoin in the United States the opportunity to obtain Kukkiwon education and certification, if they so choose. If you don't want Kukkiwon educational opportunities or you don't want Kukkiwon certification, then fine, USTC is not for you. But if you do wish these things, then there should be a way to obtain it, without having to jump through ridiculous hoops while paying exorbitant fees. USTC is one of those ways.

And the only thing that I would ask if USTC does help you with these things is to be grateful and respectful in your heart, if not vocally. I would also ask that you demonstrate that gratitude and respect by refraining from doing or saying anything that would deter or prevent USTC from helping others in the future.

That is not too much to ask, is it?
 

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