On Physical Challenges

PhotonGuy

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
4,224
Reaction score
575
I know that in Martialtalk that one of the rules is to not make physical challenges against other members. I think its good to have it like that but I also think that even if it wasn't like that, we shouldn't make physical challenges against each other because we're supposed to all get along and be kind and courteous. After all, thats part of what the martial arts is all about. So, although we do have the rule against making physical challenges it shouldn't have to be enforced because ideally nobody should break it here. Unfortunately in the real world of martial arts that isn't always the case. All too often you find people in the martial arts who pick fights when, if anything, the idea of the martial arts is not to pick fights. Back in 1992 there was this case of Steven Seagal being challenged by these twelve people who called themselves the "Dirty Dozen" and it included people such as Bob Wall and Bill Wallace. I don't see why such stuff has to happen in the world of martial arts. We're supposed to all be friends and get along. That being said, we should be careful not to say stuff on these boards that would offend people. Unfortunately, that isn't always the case here but we should make a good effort not to offend each other. We don't need any dirty dozen incidents here. Although such stuff isn't allowed here there shouldn't be any reason why such stuff would occur here in the first place.
 

Blindside

Grandmaster
Founding Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Messages
5,175
Reaction score
849
Location
Kennewick, WA
All too often you find people in the martial arts who pick fights when, if anything, the idea of the martial arts is not to pick fights.

Actually martial arts have a long history of challenge matches, the "Gracie Challenge" was only the most recent and more visible version. The Bruce Lee and Wong Jack Man fight was certainly popularized as an important part of the Bruce Lee myth. Wild Bill Hickock and David Tutt. Miyamoto Musashi, Choki Motobu, Ch'ang Tung-Shen, Huo Yuanjia, etc etc.

We're supposed to all be friends and get along.

That may be the laudable goal this martial arts forum, but it isn't the purpose of "martial arts." Most martial arts are about winning fights.
 

elder999

El Oso de Dios!
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
1,451
Location
Where the hills have eyes.,and it's HOT!
I know that in Martialtalk that one of the rules is to not make physical challenges against other members. I think its good to have it like that but I also think that even if it wasn't like that, we shouldn't make physical challenges against each other because we're supposed to all get along and be kind and courteous. After all, thats part of what the martial arts is all about. So, although we do have the rule against making physical challenges it shouldn't have to be enforced because ideally nobody should break it here. Unfortunately in the real world of martial arts that isn't always the case. All too often you find people in the martial arts who pick fights when, if anything, the idea of the martial arts is not to pick fights. Back in 1992 there was this case of Steven Seagal being challenged by these twelve people who called themselves the "Dirty Dozen" and it included people such as Bob Wall and Bill Wallace. I don't see why such stuff has to happen in the world of martial arts. We're supposed to all be friends and get along. That being said, we should be careful not to say stuff on these boards that would offend people. Unfortunately, that isn't always the case here but we should make a good effort not to offend each other. We don't need any dirty dozen incidents here. Although such stuff isn't allowed here there shouldn't be any reason why such stuff would occur here in the first place.
:rolleyes:
View attachment $pancakebunny!.jpg
 

tshadowchaser

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Founding Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 29, 2001
Messages
13,460
Reaction score
733
Location
Athol, Ma. USA
In actuality challenge matches between individuals and schools have always been around in the martial arts. I only got into organised schools in the late 60's and early 70's but There are plenty of tales I could tell of challenges if i where to open my memory and mouth.
Being a peaceful person with respect for all others in the arts and in life has always NOT been part of the arts or the people who practice them. Heck many study the arts with only the goal of being able to do harm to others if need be.
However I will agree that being respectful of others is a great goal in life and one that should be practiced on the forum. That being said in the past I have opened my training facility up to a few people that wanted to "exchange ideas" in person.
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
Staff member
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
12,952
Reaction score
10,444
Location
Maui
I really like Ballen's reply. Really. But having a big mouth and a keyboard......well, you know.
I agree with PhotonGuy to a large extent. Believe it or not, I like reading what everyone here has to say about fighting, training and all the assorted rigmarole of Martial Arts. I get frustrated when conversations turn into stubborn head banging. Not because I'm uncomfortable with arguing or confrontation, but when it gets like that nobody is really sharing knowledge or experience, they're just turning into my in-laws.

Sometimes when I'm driving to the dojo I think about what someone says here on the forum. I think," hmm, that's pretty good, I think I'll play with that tonight", especially if it's related to something I know (or think I know). It's always fun and it's opened up some doors I either haven't been through in a while, or had never been through before.

As far as "picking fights", I don't know of any Martial Artists who pick fights with the general public. Sure, some chump who's trained for a few months might, but that's not a Martial Artist, it's a chump who trained for a few months. But sometimes Martial Artists get into it with other Martial Artists. We all know there's more to Martial Arts than fighting. But bottom line - Martial Arts is about fighting. Every single Martial Art that ever was......is about fighting. And it's the one single thing that each and everyone of us here has in common - fighting. When someone says to me, "I didn't get into Martial Arts because I wanted to learn to fight-" I usually finish the sentence for them with "-you got into it because the dojo was closer than the Zumba class."
Fighting is in the DNA of Homo sapiens. I wish it wasn't, life would be a lot easier and a lot safer. But it is, and will be until we destroy ourselves a s species.

As for Segal and the 'Dirty Dozen".... I feel Segal has brought on the criticism himself. I never met the man, but I know some friends who have worked with him. They are people I know and trust, they say he's an asshat. I also know some of the so called Dirty Dozen. I'll take their word on anything that has to do with Martial Arts, including their opinion of a movie star.

And I'll challenge anyone here to a game of Scrabble, Gin Rummy, Trivial Pursuit or, if you really want to fight..... Rockem sockem robots! (I'll buy the beer.) As for arguing and giving sheet to each other here on the Forum, I'd rather hear what you all have to say. I get all the action I want in the dojo. I have enough trouble trying to keep up with that.
 

Transk53

The Dark Often Prevails
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2013
Messages
4,220
Reaction score
836
Location
England 43 Anno Domini
You know what this is an interesting thread, and some very good replies. Physical confrontation can also be fun, two mates mucking about for example.
 

donald1

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
3,533
Reaction score
810
You know what this is an interesting thread, and some very good replies. Physical confrontation can also be fun, two mates mucking about for example.

honestly when i hear that i can almost imagine two people wrestling in mud, but im also almost certain im wrong, just curious what does that mean?
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
Staff member
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
12,952
Reaction score
10,444
Location
Maui
EDIT - I posted this in the wrong place. Meant to post it in the "How dangerous is a street fight" thread.

You know what I just realized? I've never had anyone go for my eyes. Career as a cop, bouncer, detention facilities etc. Had the snot wailed out of me a few times. Wrestled on the ground - before I knew any grappling. But never had anyone go for my eyes. And even though I teach the eyes as the weakest part of the human body - I don't really consider it when I get into something. Although I certainly consider myself lucky in that respect - heck, I realize I'm not consciously aware of it's potential danger to me in those situations. Damn, that ain't good. I kinda feel like a chump as I think about it now.

Anyway, thanks for bringing it up in this thread. Maybe I should get some terminator sunglasses or something. (at the very least to find the right damn thread!)
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
14,041
Reaction score
4,488
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
Actually martial arts have a long history of challenge matches, ...

In MA, you first test your skill in local tournaments, you then test your skill in state level, and national level. Someone may like to take the short cut. Instead of going through the normal testing path, he may like to challenge the local champion, state champion, or national champion instead. If he loses, it doesn't mean anything. If he wins, he can be famous over night. This is why challenge have always existed in the MA history.

In the

- literature world, you write your books and I write my books. There will be no conflict there.
- MA world, you say you have "anti-grappling" strategy, I say I have "anti-striking" strategy. Both strategies will have to test against each other soon or later.

Because MA is for doing and not for talking, challenge will always exist. It's not a bad thing as long as it's friendly.

Most martial arts are about winning fights.
Agree! My teacher told me that when he wrestled with his father, he won't even give his own father any free round. The moment that you step into the ring/mat, it's your skill against your opponent's skill.
 
Last edited:

Hong Kong Pooey

Blue Belt
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
278
Reaction score
96
honestly when i hear that i can almost imagine two people wrestling in mud, but im also almost certain im wrong, just curious what does that mean?

Lol it's just an expression for 2 friends messing around.

Something like this, I imagine:

 
Last edited by a moderator:

elder999

El Oso de Dios!
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
1,451
Location
Where the hills have eyes.,and it's HOT!
I travel quite a bit.

Can't really walk into a strange BJJ academy without them thinking it's some sort of challenge.

Can't really walk into a new MMA academy without at least one friendly invitation....

I'm from the same part of the world as Seasoned and TShadwochaser, and only a little younger-I can remember all out "dojo wars" in New York in the 70's, as well as fairly regular "challenges." I did some "dojo storming" myself in my late teens and early 20's-it's part of what helped me choose Kyokushin over tae kwon do: I saw the sorry state of what was called tae kwon do just visiting a tae kwon do school in Port Jefferson on Long Island when I returned to college, and wound up pretty much whooping the owner and two of his senior students....I did not know I could do that, and had just dropped in to check it out, but somehow we got our wires crossed, and they viewed it as a "challenge."

Got challenged myself, once, running a school in Peekskill, NY for a senior to me for that week. Said, "Let me call my sensei.." knocked the dude out with the telephone, tied him up with the cord, had the owner of the police supply store next door get the cops to come take him away.....

....challenge made and answered! :lfao:

Of course, these days, it's a "challenge" just to take more than 15 falls per class for students....:lfao:
 

Transk53

The Dark Often Prevails
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2013
Messages
4,220
Reaction score
836
Location
England 43 Anno Domini
EDIT - I posted this in the wrong place. Meant to post it in the "How dangerous is a street fight" thread.

You know what I just realized? I've never had anyone go for my eyes. Career as a cop, bouncer, detention facilities etc. Had the snot wailed out of me a few times. Wrestled on the ground - before I knew any grappling. But never had anyone go for my eyes. And even though I teach the eyes as the weakest part of the human body - I don't really consider it when I get into something. Although I certainly consider myself lucky in that respect - heck, I realize I'm not consciously aware of it's potential danger to me in those situations. Damn, that ain't good. I kinda feel like a chump as I think about it now.

Anyway, thanks for bringing it up in this thread. Maybe I should get some terminator sunglasses or something. (at the very least to find the right damn thread!)

Yeah maybe :D
 

Transk53

The Dark Often Prevails
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2013
Messages
4,220
Reaction score
836
Location
England 43 Anno Domini
honestly when i hear that i can almost imagine two people wrestling in mud, but im also almost certain im wrong, just curious what does that mean?

A term that those of us whom had many hours in the country, or as HKP says, just an English saying.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,337
Reaction score
8,070
It depends where you are starting and stopping this. If you are out there canning other martial arts or putting yourself up as some sort of expert in fighting then you should expect someone to call you on it.

If you are being friendly and respectfully then it is a different story.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
14,041
Reaction score
4,488
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
If you are being friendly and respectfully then it is a different story.

If your best friend also trains MA, do you want to "borrow him" to test your own skill?

When your friend visits your house, you throw him a pair of boxing gloves, spar (or wrestle) for 15 rounds, have dinner and beer, and drink tea after dinner, that will be the most wonderful life that any MA guy would like to have.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,337
Reaction score
8,070
If your best friend also trains MA, do you want to "borrow him" to test your own skill?

When your friend visits your house, you throw him a pair of boxing gloves, spar (or wrestle) for 15 rounds, have dinner and beer, and drink tea after dinner, that will be the most wonderful life that any MA guy would like to have.

Of course. And look I train in an environment that although is competitive it is mostly ego free. But there is the open mat as compared to the dojo storm.

And there have been some sparring sessions for some people who want to throw their weight around or just be irritating duche bags.

We had a guy who wanted to tell our boxing coach how to box constantly because in his gym he trained to a superior method. And that was worked out in sparring. Now that one went the coaches way. But it hasn't allways been the case. Sometimes the other guy really does have a point and can prove it.

We scored a wrestling coach that way.
 

Zero

Master Black Belt
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
1,284
Reaction score
297
" knocked the dude out with the telephone, tied him up with the cord.....
Ah, I've been away for sometime and logging back onto MA to see someone putting the old Ninjitsu "telephone across the temple" technique to good use, makes me realise what I have been missing. The hog-tying with the cord is a nice addition!
Peace
 

Zero

Master Black Belt
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
1,284
Reaction score
297
Seriously though, I am struggling a bit to see exactly what PhotonGuy is saying and would tend to agree with most other posters, in that, while martial arts should be good spirited, as part of that very good spirit, there is nothing wrong with going to test yourself at another club, be it the same style or something completely different. Provided you follow etiquette (which at times is not seen unfortunately) and don't act like a dawk (which can be hard for some). Some clubs, and often the more competition focused ones or those with a sifu or sensei with a more open mind, are quite happy to let you try out their style or role with some of their mid or senior members.

I would say to anyone who intends to try this out, it can be good if you make acquaintances with some of the club members in advance and sound them out how their dojo/club takes a view on such things or even spar with them a bit so you don't turn up to the club as a totally unknown quantity. Secondly, although hopefully all is carried out in good spirits and there is no grudge element involved, if you are going to fight at another club in an informal manner or if you are to be the one that spars with someone who comes through your club's doors, do not take anything for granted. Always be of the mind-set to protect yourself and keep your guard on/up (at least mentally) at all times even when off the mats. Your intentions may be perfectly honourable but others have no way of knowing such (you don't want to be the next guy waking up hog-tied with a telephone cord...)
 

ballen0351

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
10,480
Reaction score
1,246
Ah, I've been away for sometime and logging back onto MA to see someone putting the old Ninjitsu "telephone across the temple" technique to good use, makes me realise what I have been missing. The hog-tying with the cord is a nice addition!
Peace
Sadly kids today wont even know what a phone cord is
 

Latest Discussions

Top