old school/clasic tkd

[miguksaram]

You have a foot in both camps, don't you, miguksaram? I'd love hearing your thoughts while we wait for someone else to chime in. By the way, I'm learning the KKW style right now and some competition oriented stuff is inevitably also bleeding in, so I have a small inkling of the differences - but I'd like to actually have a substantial discussion here on MT rather than the usual 'my way is the best' stuff we've seen too frequently.

Actually I am the wrong person to ask as I do not consider myself to be well versed to speak with authority on the more modern methods taught in the KKW TKD schools. This why I refer you to Mst. Cole, puunui and others like ArchTKD who have been coaching for a while.

I'm also interested what 'old school' TKD that the likes of GM LEE Won Kuk actually taught was for comparative purposes. I sometimes get the feeling that the reason why 'modern' methods are said to be superior is because they actually are functional for their purposes while in contrast the training in many mediocre dojang/dojo is NOT functional although it should be. I'd hate for those schools to be representative of what 'traditional' training is, since I certainly think traditional methodology can and does produce functionally capable fighters.

I agree...Old school is not inferior nor is new school superior. Like anything they each have their give an takes. The key is to be smart enough to implement both for a better product. I don't believe in discarding anything simply because it is old, however, if some presents a methodology that can give me the same results in a quicker fashion then why wouldn't I convert to that method?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I wanted to touch upon one of my earlier posts with an eye towards expanding it. Defensive Tactics training for military, L.E., Corrections etc comes directly from the martial arts. It is often a simplified model due to time constraints as well as monetary considerations. But by and large, D.T. and SD owes its existence to the martial arts. This has been both a blessing and a curse. Many years ago, Royce Gracie offered BJJ at the regional training facility where I taught as an adjunct instructor for the academies. Initially it was wildly popular. However, when the 'wow' factor faded, everyone started realizing that none of the instruction could actually be incorporated into practical street usage. In fact, it was deemed detrimental training and Royce had to adjust what was being taught. Even then, I haven't seen that course offered for years. The reason was that it was geared for sport, with a sport training methodology. This isn't putting down sport training methodology, but it is identifying it as not the best choice for certain venues. It is like using a saw to hammer a nail. Wrong tool for the job. Looking at my earlier post;

• Do the opponents begin the sparring immediately, or is there a time prior to the physical conflict that verbal de-esculation skills can be attempted and practiced?
• Is there an opportunity to evade or escape?
• Do either have the option and/or ability to use improvised weapons?
• Can either attempt to use cover and/or concealment?
• Can several of the opposition have 'friends' join the conflict so that multiple opponents are now in the equation?
• Is the same footwear always worn?
• Are both parties required to abide by the same rules?
• Any chance of going to the ground?
• Any chance the 'good guy' can do a gross motor skill 'stun and run'?
• Do they spar in all lighting conditions, including dim light conditions?
• Do they always spar on a dry, level surface or are slopes and alternative surfaces utilized like the parking lot, grass etc?
• Is a uniform and/or belt always worn, or regular street clothes.
• Is the sparring session begun at a pre-arranged time or is one party completely surprised (read typical ambush)?
• If a mistake is made, or a strike connects do the opponents continue or do they reset their positions and start again.
• Are they always started in a standing position, facing each other? Or can one be on the ground at a postiton of disadvantage at the start?
• Do they always train inside the school or can they train out in the parking lot between a couple of parked cars, a ditch, an elevator, a stairway, an alley etc?

These are just some of the considerations that may separate the two methodologies. This is what I'm talking about and that old school, in my experience (and not just TKD) addresses.

Taking the first two on the list;

• Do the opponents begin the sparring immediately, or is there a time prior to the physical conflict that verbal de-esculation skills can be attempted and practiced?
• Is there an opportunity to evade or escape?

Envision martial arts of a century or more removed. Policing agencies with the ability of rapid transport didn't always exist. Homes were often farther spread apart in rural communities (and still are in some areas). The average person didn't have a firearm or other weapons-specific tool. They didn't have home alarms. In otherwords, they were a bit more dependent upon themselves for defense. The were often their own first and last line of defense. And that can often translate to us in the present depending upon the scenario. Thus a means to de-esculate a situation was of prime concern, as was the ability to train to avoid the confrontation all together.

Since we react under duress the way we train, we need to make sure that our training, if in any way touches on SD, reflects what may happen in a real world scenario. In an altercation, it probably isn't in our best interest to take on a 'stance' and then make the attempt to strike/kick the bad guy, at least not if other options are available. But we need to train for those options so that they can be utilized under duress. Does a student have the option to practice verbally or physically (posture) de-esculate? What about practicing avoidance, evasion or escape? Getting to a door and locking it. Putting a large, inanimate object between you and the aggressor. Yelling for help prior to the attack to gain attention. Better yet, yelling 'FIRE' instead of 'HELP' as it may actually draw more attention. How about crossing the street? Getting into the car and leaving? Ducking into a store with lots of public attention?

Just talking about it once but never practicing it is not sufficient. It should be a regular part of training, if SD is one of the considerations. It doesn't take away from sparring, it adds a new layer to it.

More to follow.

 

[Archtkd]

I wanted to touch upon one of my earlier posts with an eye towards expanding it. Defensive Tactics training for military, L.E., Corrections etc comes directly from the martial arts. It is often a simplified model due to time constraints as well as monetary considerations. But by and large, D.T. and SD owes its existence to the martial arts. This has been both a blessing and a curse. Many years ago, Royce Gracie offered BJJ at the regional training facility where I taught as an adjunct instructor for the academies. Initially it was wildly popular. However, when the 'wow' factor faded, everyone started realizing that none of the instruction could actually be incorporated into practical street usage. In fact, it was deemed detrimental training and Royce had to adjust what was being taught. Even then, I haven't seen that course offered for years. The reason was that it was geared for sport, with a sport training methodology. This isn't putting down sport training methodology, but it is identifying it as not the best choice for certain venues. It is like using a saw to hammer a nail. Wrong tool for the job. Looking at my earlier post;

How does this connect to Manny's original post and his nostalgia about training with an old school taekwondoin of the Jidokwan lineage in Mexico?

 

[MJS]

Thanks for keep things running smoothly around here!

I just want to suggest that it might have helped to have posted that (the part that the offending posts had already been removed) at the time of the thread's closing.

As it was, when I saw the warning, I started paging back through earlier posts to figure out what set it off (so that I could better understand the how the admins interpret the rules--I got de-repped a few years ago when someone else got a mod warning for bumping an old thread, then I got slammed for daring to ask what the proper procedure should have been--I'm still trying to figure out just what the rules are; "reasonable" is a very subjective concept).

But I couldn't find anything there that I thought was particularly personal. (A brief panic went through my head: "Oh no, has MT gone police state? The only way to learn the laws is to unwittingly break one!") Then I got to this part where you say that the posts that crossed the line had already been removed. ("Whew!)

Some of the posts that were removed to moved to "The Great Deabate". You can view them, however the thread is locked. The reason for all of this, is that the thread was going off topic. Some thread drift is bound to happen, however, the course of this drift was pointless. As for MT being a police state...lol...no, don't worry, we're not running around censoring things left and right. Usually a nudge will suffice, if things are drifting too far off course. In certain circumstances, it is necessary to remove a post.

Hope that answered your question. If you have any other questions, feel free to PM me.

 

[chrispillertkd]

How does this connect to Manny's original post and his nostalgia about training with an old school taekwondoin of the Jidokwan lineage in Mexico?

It's at least as relevant as miguksaram's post which insults "oldschool taekwondoin."

Pax,

Chris

 

[miguksaram]

It's at least as relevant as miguksaram's post which insults "oldschool taekwondoin."

Pax,

Chris

Reread the post. It is a jab at someone's perception of what Old school TKD is, not a shot at Old School Taekwondoin'. I am personally more old school than new school myself.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I did read it. Kong Soo Do's post is easily as relevant as yours was.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Archtkd]

Jorge has to emigrate and left my City around 1994-95 at that time I was just married, working and had quit TKD so I returned to Jido Kwan Central but nothing was the same, the relation beetwen G.M. Alvite was very good but not one of my former classmates was there, i was overweight, slow very slow and felt like a dinosaur with the new guys, I pushed myself alot trying to emulate the old days but can't stand the rithm of the working out sessions, blisters,burns, pain,lactid acid made me feel like I was a looser so I quit again.

It was till 2007 that I found the nice dojang I am part off, my new master listen to me, give me advises and took me below his wing and slow but steady put me in better shape and slowly a good relationship began to the point to make me his senior instructor. It was trough Hwarang Organization and head master that I got inside TKD again, right now I have an status inside Hwarang TKD and a very nie relationship with my master, in some ways I took him like my mentor.

Thanks to all the noise in this thread. I missed this point, which I think is the crux of the issues in debate. Are you now in shape to practice serious old or new school taekwondo?

 

[Archtkd]

I'm sure our feelings won't be hurt just as I'm sure you will just run over to your other board and complain over there about how you are treated here by us and they can give you the sympathetic pat on the back you are craving. Nuff said.

I don't and never want to hold a position in the censorship committee, but I think this is uncalled for.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Manny is a very good friend. I've had many good discussions with him here and on my own board. I contacted him to see if he had any issues with what I've been posting in regards to his thread (he is the OP). He doesn't want to be involved with any issues, but he didn't express any issues with my posts. Thank you sir.

 

[Manny]

This is exactly the situation with wtf clubs in my area. They are 100% geared toward the olympic sparring. My friends who train at these clubs come and train with me at my house occasionally and when it comes to anything to do with olympic sparring they are experts. They know that this counters that, but this wont counter that unless you do a back kick but that wont usually score unless you turn your foot this way etc etc. Every last thing they do is in realation to olympic sparring ruleset. It is their whole focus. One of them is a second degree black belt and when we do punching drills on my bag its obvious he has never been taught to punch properly. When a mate of mine asked him why he cant punch, his response was "because punches rarely score". I know this is not representative of every wtf club, but in my area it desribes most wtf clubs, and from what manny says, its a representation of his area also.

Thank you so much, this is the thing in the dojangs I know, Olimpic Sparring sells and sells well, that's what the people see on tv and that's what they want to emulate, however they don't know TKD is much more than that and the sambonims see the $$$$ and spend most of the class time doing COMPTITION DRILLS becuase they want to set a group of competitors and to go touring the state/country compiting and wining medals because when yoiu get more medals the local news go to you dojang for intervies or photo sessions and this sells and this is a vicius circle.

WTF/Olimpic/Saprring SELLS and very well, so that's why a large quantuty of dojangs right here in my city the thing that do is teaching footwork,kicking drills,sport sparring techs and leaves beside the other stuff.

Don't own or run a dojang so my living or income does not come from a comercial dojang, yes I wish some day have a little space for me where I can teach teens and adults the whole TKD concept, focusing in the MA and then in the sport part of it not in reverse.

Manny

 

[mastercole]

The thing is no one can identify what "old school" Taekwondo training actually is. Is it 1959 Moo Duk Kwan, 1944 Chung Do Kwan, 1960 Jidokwan, 1972 Chang Moo Kwan? No one knows. It's just a claim that holds no water, and it holds no water according to the leaders of those Kwan.

True "old school" or "traditional Taekwondo" is following your biggest seniors. NOT to follow them means you are not old school, even if you think you are practicing some middle block version from 1957.

Find out what Kwan you are from, try asking the most senior leaders of that Kwan this question and see what you find out.

 

[ETinCYQX]

"Old school" to me means mid to late 1990's with Park's Tae Kwon Do, in my own little martial arts career. While I'm glad for the PTF and my experience with them, I would not consider that the good old days. We've moved forward by leaps and bounds since then and I think it's important to not have too much of a rose tint when looking backwards.

 

[mastercole]

Thank you so much, this is the thing in the dojangs I know, Olimpic Sparring sells and sells well, that's what the people see on tv and that's what they want to emulate, however they don't know TKD is much more than that and the sambonims see the $$$$ and spend most of the class time doing COMPTITION DRILLS becuase they want to set a group of competitors and to go touring the state/country compiting and wining medals because when yoiu get more medals the local news go to you dojang for intervies or photo sessions and this sells and this is a vicius circle.

WTF/Olimpic/Saprring SELLS and very well, so that's why a large quantuty of dojangs right here in my city the thing that do is teaching footwork,kicking drills,sport sparring techs and leaves beside the other stuff.

Don't own or run a dojang so my living or income does not come from a comercial dojang, yes I wish some day have a little space for me where I can teach teens and adults the whole TKD concept, focusing in the MA and then in the sport part of it not in reverse.

Manny

There is a big opportunity right in front of you.

Olympic Taekwondo will continue to grow and wise instructors will ride that wave. Olympic Taekwondo catches peoples attention. So-called "Old School" does not, it has failed, and no one wants it. Olympic Taekwondo has brought many people in Mexico to Taekwondo. It's a very successful vehicle, just as it has been in over 200 other nations.

Quite a success story don't you think? You have to see the opportunities Manny. You want to teach a full Kukkiwon curriculum, not just Olympic sparring? You need students first. How are you going to get this students? Olympic Taekwondo is part of the Kukkiwon curriculum, so teach it, then as time goes on you will have the chance to teach more and more people the whole curriculum.

 

[dancingalone]

The thing is no one can identify what "old school" Taekwondo training actually is. Is it 1959 Moo Duk Kwan, 1944 Chung Do Kwan, 1960 Jidokwan, 1972 Chang Moo Kwan? No one knows. It's just a claim that holds no water, and it holds no water according to the leaders of those Kwan.

Clearly 'old school' is a relative term. For me, I think it is hard style training based on kata, hard sparring, makiware/taiyong bong (sp?), and two person 1 & 3 step sparring practice. From the hints left in books such as those written by GM CHO Sihak 'Henry' and GM SON Duk Sung, I conclude they likely would have thought the same.

 

[Archtkd]

The thing is no one can identify what "old school" Taekwondo training actually is. Is it 1959 Moo Duk Kwan, 1944 Chung Do Kwan, 1960 Jidokwan, 1972 Chang Moo Kwan? No one knows. It's just a claim that holds no water, and it holds no water according to the leaders of those Kwan.

True "old school" or "traditional Taekwondo" is following your biggest seniors. NOT to follow them means you are not old school, even if you think you are practicing some middle block version from 1957.

Find out what Kwan you are from, try asking the most senior leaders of that Kwan this question and see what you find out.

I'd agree. After testing for my 5th dan a couple of months ago, I tried to prod my most senior teacher, a 9th dan of the Chang Moo Kwan about training in the "old days" compared to what he has taught me what he witnessed in our dojang. He surprised me by saying he didn't see much differences. He was kind of pleased to see we have an early 6:15 a.m., class, which he said was a common thing in Korea. In general, this is a man, who prefers to focus on the present, has a total embrace of the Kukkiwon ideal, and has never made his kwan lineage an an issue of attention.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I'd agree. After testing for my 5th dan a couple of months ago, I tried to prod my most senior teacher, a 9th dan of the Chang Moo Kwan about training in the "old days" compared to what he has taught me what he witnessed in our dojang. He surprised me by saying he didn't see much differences.

I'd be interested in hearing what kind of training you do in your school and when your instructor entered the Chang Moo Kwan.

Pax,

Chris

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Someone neg rep'd me for this, saying I'm being closed minded. The irony is that the realistic training is something I feel has merit. I am a firm believer of programs such as RMCAT, as do the other two people who I addressed this to. However, the bottom line is that old school TKD did not train in this fashion. If anything the RMCAT training would be considered more new school. So to the person who neg rep'd me...whatever. Instead of you accusing me of being closed minded perhaps, you should do better research on how 99% of the old school TKD was taught and step outside of your fantasy world of how you thought it was done.

I was not the one who gave you negative rep, but kong soo do always conducts himself in a very courteous manner, he is never rude or sarcastic. Your post typified what goes wrong on these threads. Sarcasm is uncalled for. You cant type a post like that and then be surprised that someone negative repped you.

 

[Manny]

Manny/ What are the demographics of people who train at your dojang? Is it predominantly children, youth, adults, or older adults. How many people of your your age , experience and station in life train there? If you have many people interested in more balanced training a the dojang, you could create classes to do that. It seem to be like you've already started doing that.

In this order: 1.-Children (a lot), 2.-Teens (many), 3.-Mom's (mmm around 6), 4.-men (3 including me). The men class is the one I teach, two students and myself, yes there was a time we were 7 men but it most of them quit, for what I have herd it's dificult for working men go to dojang afther work, damn even for me it's dificult to go teaching because I leave office exausted but the love for TKD/MA droves me to dojang twice a week, there are some times I go to train with the kids (this class is very cardio) like two weeks ago that I've got a hamstring pull. There is another guy who some times apears to dojang he's quite inconsitente (a yellow belt) when he apears in dojang with the other two guys the class get very cool.

Manny

 

[Manny]

There is a big opportunity right in front of you.

Olympic Taekwondo will continue to grow and wise instructors will ride that wave. Olympic Taekwondo catches peoples attention. So-called "Old School" does not, it has failed, and no one wants it. Olympic Taekwondo has brought many people in Mexico to Taekwondo. It's a very successful vehicle, just as it has been in over 200 other nations.

Quite a success story don't you think? You have to see the opportunities Manny. You want to teach a full Kukkiwon curriculum, not just Olympic sparring? You need students first. How are you going to get this students? Olympic Taekwondo is part of the Kukkiwon curriculum, so teach it, then as time goes on you will have the chance to teach more and more people the whole curriculum.

I must agree with you this time, the most sucessful martial bussiness in my city are the TKD dojangs. Number 1 sport in my country is Soccer then I can say that maybe TKD (talkinga bout children) however swiming classes and maybe base ball are high too. However TKD has caught the attention of moms who take their kids to the dojang.

TKD not only forges character and values on children but also help them to do exercise and as my sambonim says TKD helps to stay away from the couch, the chips and sodas,the nintendo or exbox and from the idiot cage (TV) and internet.

Manny