OK... minor rant time

Xue Sheng

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:soapbox:
First let me get this off my chest… ARRRGH!!!!!! :angry: Your sifu IS NOT your Sigung :tantrum:


Sorry but I have seen or heard this a few times in the last month and it's driving me nuts but Sigung does not mean Senior Teacher, grand master or anything else to identify one of greater knowledge than a sifu and IF your sifu (teacher) insists on being called Sigung then he is WRONG!!!!!!! :cuss:

Your sifu CANNOT be your sigung but your sifu’s sifu can. Kind of like your grandfather really shouldn't be your father (just less icky) :disgust:

Sigung means grandfather teacher or teacher’s teacher not grandmaster:mad:, not senior teacher :rpo: not superior to a sifu :erg: not Jedi master:yoda: just grandfather teacher or teacher’s teacher .

Your teacher is your shifu
Your Teacher’s teacher is your shigung
And your Teacher’s teacher’s teacher is your Da Shigung

And I have it on good authority that the Cantonese version is much the same

Sifu, Sigung and Dai Sigung.

And just to note Da shifu is more like grand master and I have seen a few take the title here in the good ole USA :ticked: BUT just as a note if you hear a Chinese martial artist from China call another Chinese martial artist from China a da shifu you best duck and cover if they are both legitimate martial artists because a fight is about to start. Because Da Sifu …is… an insult.

:cuss: So for crying out loud..LEARN the language before you start giving yourself titles to make yourself feel superior to a simple sifu.


:soapbox:

Rant over

Thank You :cool:
 

geezer

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:soapbox:
First let me get this off my chest… ARRRGH!!!!!! :angry: Your sifu IS NOT your Sigung... Your sifu CANNOT be your sigung but your sifu’s sifu can. Kind of like your grandfather really shouldn't be your father (just less icky)

Yes, the only way that could happen is some sort of martial arts incest. Better not go there.

Sifu, Sigung and Dai Sigung.

OK, I don't speak Cantonese, but my Cantonese Sifu used the terms Sifu, Sigung and Sijo (Grandfateher). So my Sifu was Leung Ting, my Sigung was Yip Man, my Sijo: Chan Wah Shun (or possibly Leung Bic as well, since both taught Grandmaster Yip). We used the term "Dai" = "big" or "great" to indicate someone of exceptional stature. So I would address a great practioner of my system, such as Master Keith Kernspecht (who I have never met, btw) as my Dai sihing (or "great" +sihing= "elder brother" since we had the same sifu). And Grandmaster Yip, as he is he is both deceased, and universally recognized as having been a great exponent of his art, certainly would merit the honorific term "Dai". On the other hand, the other leaders of this system, including my former Sifu have also adopted all manner of titles and ranks to promote themselves. So much for the virtue of humility!

... just as a note if you hear a Chinese martial artist from China call another Chinese martial artist from China a da shifu you best duck and cover if they are both legitimate martial artists because a fight is about to start. Because Da Sifu …is… an insult.

Boy, how do they handle that in Chicago? lol.
 
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Xue Sheng

Xue Sheng

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Yes, the only way that could happen is some sort of martial arts incest. Better not go there.

Agreed...lets not go there

OK, I don't speak Cantonese, but my Cantonese Sifu used the terms Sifu, Sigung and Sijo (Grandfateher). So my Sifu was Leung Ting, my Sigung was Yip Man, my Sijo: Chan Wah Shun (or possibly Leung Bic as well, since both taught Grandmaster Yip). We used the term "Dai" = "big" or "great" to indicate someone of exceptional stature. So I would address a great practioner of my system, such as Master Keith Kernspecht (who I have never met, btw) as my Dai sihing (or "great" +sihing= "elder brother" since we had the same sifu). And Grandmaster Yip, as he is he is both deceased, and universally recognized as having been a great exponent of his art, certainly would merit the honorific term "Dai". On the other hand, the other leaders of this system, including my former Sifu have also adopted all manner of titles and ranks to promote themselves. So much for the virtue of humility!

Elder brother, as far as I know is ok, Grandmaster applied to a deceased master is also ok. But call a living "Chinese" Sifu a grandmaster if you too are Chinese you COULD have a problem. Example my 1st sifu calls my Sanda sifu Da Sifu and my first sifu is in for a world of hurt. However they let most of us Western slide because we don't know any better and in some cases they use it to their monetary advantage. There is a Sifu in Beijing that has 2 WebPages, one in Chinese where he is a sifu and one in English where he is a Grandmaster. However on the Chinese page there is ABSOLUTLY no HINT of title grandmaster.

Boy, how do they handle that in Chicago? lol.

Eh no worries in Chicago since their boys would already be jumpin for crossing the turf lines to begin with... :D:D:D:D

I'm glad you knew about the Chicago stuff because I had no clue. And thanks for the Help with the Cantonese for this post :asian:
 

Tensei85

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Yes, the only way that could happen is some sort of martial arts incest. Better not go there.



OK, I don't speak Cantonese, but my Cantonese Sifu used the terms Sifu, Sigung and Sijo (Grandfateher). So my Sifu was Leung Ting, my Sigung was Yip Man, my Sijo: Chan Wah Shun (or possibly Leung Bic as well, since both taught Grandmaster Yip). We used the term "Dai" = "big" or "great" to indicate someone of exceptional stature. So I would address a great practioner of my system, such as Master Keith Kernspecht (who I have never met, btw) as my Dai sihing (or "great" +sihing= "elder brother" since we had the same sifu). And Grandmaster Yip, as he is he is both deceased, and universally recognized as having been a great exponent of his art, certainly would merit the honorific term "Dai". On the other hand, the other leaders of this system, including my former Sifu have also adopted all manner of titles and ranks to promote themselves. So much for the virtue of humility!


Another translation is Sifu-Sigung-Sitaigung (anything after or sometimes before is translated as Sijou) in Cantonese. Another translation for multiple Sifu's that are instructing you from the same family.

Would be
Senior Teacher- Dai Sifu
2nd Teacer- Yi Sifu
3rd Teacher- Saam Sifu etc...

As opposed to the traditional Sibaak or Sisuk or etc...
 

Tensei85

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Another translation is Sifu-Sigung-Sitaigung (anything after or sometimes before is translated as Sijou) in Cantonese. Another translation for multiple Sifu's that are instructing you from the same family.

Would be
Senior Teacher- Dai Sifu
2nd Teacer- Yi Sifu
3rd Teacher- Saam Sifu etc...

As opposed to the traditional Sibaak or Sisuk or etc...

Or of course mandarin:

Da Shifu
Er Shifu
San Shifu
 

Tensei85

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:soapbox:
First let me get this off my chest ARRRGH!!!!!! :angry: Your sifu IS NOT your Sigung :tantrum:


Sorry but I have seen or heard this a few times in the last month and it's driving me nuts but Sigung does not mean Senior Teacher, grand master or anything else to identify one of greater knowledge than a sifu and IF your sifu (teacher) insists on being called Sigung then he is WRONG!!!!!!! :cuss:

Your sifu CANNOT be your sigung but your sifus sifu can. Kind of like your grandfather really shouldn't be your father (just less icky) :disgust:

Sigung means grandfather teacher or teachers teacher not grandmaster:mad:, not senior teacher :rpo: not superior to a sifu :erg: not Jedi master:yoda: just grandfather teacher or teachers teacher .

Your teacher is your shifu
Your Teachers teacher is your shigung
And your Teachers teachers teacher is your Da Shigung

And I have it on good authority that the Cantonese version is much the same

Sifu, Sigung and Dai Sigung.

And just to note Da shifu is more like grand master and I have seen a few take the title here in the good ole USA :ticked: BUT just as a note if you hear a Chinese martial artist from China call another Chinese martial artist from China a da shifu you best duck and cover if they are both legitimate martial artists because a fight is about to start. Because Da Sifu is an insult.

:cuss: So for crying out loud..LEARN the language before you start giving yourself titles to make yourself feel superior to a simple sifu.


:soapbox:

Rant over

Thank You :cool:


By the way I see that crap all the time, and all I can do is laugh and walk away. To be honest I tried explaining to people like that, it generally doesn't work out...
 

David43515

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This may be off topic, but since I don`t speak Chinese I thought I`d ask.

I thought I also heard that "Sifu" originally meant a teacher who had accepted you as a personal disciple, and that term signified that relationship. I had heard there was another term used by students who were just paying members of the school but who were not personal diciples of the teacher. Two terms to signify two different relationships to the teacher.

Anyone who knows the language and can comment or correct me?
 

Tensei85

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This may be off topic, but since I don`t speak Chinese I thought I`d ask.

I thought I also heard that "Sifu" originally meant a teacher who had accepted you as a personal disciple, and that term signified that relationship. I had heard there was another term used by students who were just paying members of the school but who were not personal diciples of the teacher. Two terms to signify two different relationships to the teacher.

Anyone who knows the language and can comment or correct me?

Actually in Chinese there are 2 different Sifu's:

1. Is your Sifu (family term)
2. The other is any other Sifu (has some type of specialized skill)

The pronounciation is the same however the characters that define the word are different, I'm currently on a mobile device so I can't upload the characters, but I will tomorrow...

As for the 2nd part of your statement on some occasions people use the term "laoshi" or Canto "Laosi" to designate a teacher. Take note however this is more commonly referred to "school teachers" and similar occupations but sometimes is used for those instructing you but not directly related to you in the Martial Arts field.

Hope this helps,
 

Tez3

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Is this part of the same thing where the Chinese have 'title's (can't think of another word) in the family, such First Uncle, First Brother/Sister.
I'm a huge fan of a writer called Han Suyin and as well as writing novels she's also written her autobiography and it's littered with title's like this.
 
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Xue Sheng

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Is this part of the same thing where the Chinese have 'title's (can't think of another word) in the family, such First Uncle, First Brother/Sister.
I'm a huge fan of a writer called Han Suyin and as well as writing novels she's also written her autobiography and it's littered with title's like this.

Yup

But in families the names are different (and more complicated) depending on if they are on your fathers side of mothers side and even though I am older than my wifes older brother I still need to call him older brother just like she does.
 

masherdong

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Hmm, let's see, when I took Kajukenbo in the early 90's, I was trained by Sigung Dann Baker. At that time he was a 6th or 7th BB. He told us to call him Sigung. There wasnt a Sifu that taught me, just him. So, I called him Sigung.
 
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Xue Sheng

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Hmm, let's see, when I took Kajukenbo in the early 90's, I was trained by Sigung Dann Baker. At that time he was a 6th or 7th BB. He told us to call him Sigung. There wasnt a Sifu that taught me, just him. So, I called him Sigung.

Call him what you want but he is not a sigung if you are talking Chinese martial arts unless he was the teacher of your teacher (sifu). He may have wanted to be called sigung but he was your sifu not your sigung if you are talking CMA.

Sigung means Grandfather teacher and I am sorry but it appear "Sigung" Baker does not know Chinese, he can't be your sigung if he is your teacher.
 
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Tensei85

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Hmm, let's see, when I took Kajukenbo in the early 90's, I was trained by Sigung Dann Baker. At that time he was a 6th or 7th BB. He told us to call him Sigung. There wasnt a Sifu that taught me, just him. So, I called him Sigung.

Yea, the problem seems to be stemming from a traditional ranking system and then trying to incorporate traditional Chinese terms to show its Chinese roots.

Sometimes they just don't mix, traditionally there was no ranking systems in CMA to begin with. However I understand that certain systems have adopted a ranking system, but the original use was only based on familial hierarchy.

So these family terms were no different as Xue has mentioned than one's own family now a days. These terms haven't changed just as you would not call your uncle a cousin nor a father a grandfather etc... As Xue brought out earlier.
 

Tensei85

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This may be off topic, but since I don`t speak Chinese I thought I`d ask.

I thought I also heard that "Sifu" originally meant a teacher who had accepted you as a personal disciple, and that term signified that relationship. I had heard there was another term used by students who were just paying members of the school but who were not personal diciples of the teacher. Two terms to signify two different relationships to the teacher.

Anyone who knows the language and can comment or correct me?


Ok here's the difference for the two separate Sifu's

師父- This is your Sifu
師傅- This is any other Sifu

But the two are still Sifu
 

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