O.K.. Gotta ask...Stephen K Hayes?

[Cruentus]

There has been a few things here on MT regarding Stephen K Hayes.

So...I have to ask the ninjitsu enthusiasts here.

What are your opinions of him?

Thanks!

 

[Tgace]

One of my original MA idols in the 80's when I was a teen...ahh the days/and nights of running around the neighborhood in black (w/tabi) doing all the "ninja" stuff that I now try to prevent as a LEO (funny how life works aint it?). Good or Bad, SKH put ninjutsu on the US map back in the day.....

 

[Cruentus]

One of my original MA idols in the 80's when I was a teen...ahh the days/and nights of running around the neighborhood in black (w/tabi) doing all the "ninja" stuff that I now try to prevent as a LEO (funny how life works aint it?). Good or Bad, SKH put ninjutsu on the US map back in the day.....

He, he. You ran around in Ninja garb too, eh? :ninja: Glad I am not alone there. I still have a few of his books from when I was a kid.

Despite that, and the fact that he put Ninjitsu on the map in the U.S., I really know little about him.

 

[Tgace]

Id tell some of the stories about Paul M. and I "back in the day", but the statute of limitations may not be up on some of them...

 

[Tgace]

From what little I know, if you buy Masaaki Hatsumi's lineage in Ninjutsu than SKH should be OK. He seems to be making his own way lately with this "Quest" stuff. I dont know if its ninjutsu repackaged or something of his own. Havent seen him in print, or in the mag's to any large extent lately.

 

[Cryozombie]

I'll tell ya...

As much as I feel that he has watered down ninjutsu for the purpose of profiting off of it, and his Quest curriculum, what I have seen of the man seems like he himself knows his stuff... AND...

I have to give him a lot of credit for opening the art up to the rest of the world, I don't think it would have spread as fast or as well without his efforts.

It's unfortunate that now it seems (to an outsider) that he is all about the $$ and not the art anylonger.

 

[MJS]

I've read a few of his books. IMO, he knows his stuff and was one of the main people to expose Ninjutsu to the US.

As for his 'brand' of Ninjutsu....looks pretty good to me. Seems like he took the more traditional stuff and improved on it. If you look at his site, he still offers the trad. aspect, but it definately appears to be more modernized. Seems like he's following in the footsteps of what Robert Bussey did a long time ago.

Mike

 

[MJS]

As much as I feel that he has watered down ninjutsu for the purpose of profiting off of it, and his Quest curriculum, what I have seen of the man seems like he himself knows his stuff...

Why do you think its watered down?? To me it seems like he made it better.

Mike

 

[Cryozombie]

Why do you think its watered down?? To me it seems like he made it better.

Mike

What I have heard from some of his Shadows of Iga Insructors who left when he created Quest was that the reason they did so was, he was going to TKD schools, asking if they wanted to Teach "Authentic Ninjutsu" and then spending 6 weeks teaching them to be Ninjutsu instructors, and then allowing them to teach Ninjutsu.

If all it takes is 6 weeks, Id be a master already. It sounds watered down to me.

 

[Cryozombie]

Seems like he's following in the footsteps of what Robert Bussey did a long time ago.

Mike

I may be wrong but didn't Robert Bussey leave the Bujinkan for Religious reasons?

 

[MJS]

What I have heard from some of his Shadows of Iga Insructors who left when he created Quest was that the reason they did so was, he was going to TKD schools, asking if they wanted to Teach "Authentic Ninjutsu" and then spending 6 weeks teaching them to be Ninjutsu instructors, and then allowing them to teach Ninjutsu.

If all it takes is 6 weeks, Id be a master already. It sounds watered down to me.

Wow! Never heard about that one. I know that he has alot of schools, but I never thought that he resort to doing something like that. Then again, could these students just be talking bad about him?

6 weeks??? Damn!!!

Mike

 

[MJS]

I may be wrong but didn't Robert Bussey leave the Bujinkan for Religious reasons?

Not sure. It seemed like he wasnt into certain meditation things that they were doing. Maybe that was one of the reasons. I have read that when he opened his own schools, he eliminated much of that.

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

So, both Bussey and Hayes are from the Bujinkan (I knew about Hayes, but not Bussey), but the question is, where are they in comparison to some of the others from Bujinkan who would be considered high level?

 

[MJS]

So, both Bussey and Hayes are from the Bujinkan (I knew about Hayes, but not Bussey), but the question is, where are they in comparison to some of the others from Bujinkan who would be considered high level?

I would have to say that Hayes is higher ranked and is still somewhat involved in his training with Hatsumi. As for Bussey...he seems like hes out of the loop and is doing his own thing with his new org.

Mike

 

[arnisador]

Robert Bussey:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9871

SKH:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69

Searching will turn up more.

 

[Cryozombie]

Wow! Never heard about that one. I know that he has alot of schools, but I never thought that he resort to doing something like that. Then again, could these students just be talking bad about him?

6 weeks??? Damn!!!

Mike

I dont know, but the one still says good things about his abilities and goes to his seminars, for whatever that is worth... Like I said, I did hear that information word of mouth so don't take it as Law. I did see his seminar flyer that wanted a (crud I forget the exact amount) $35.00(?) Fee for attending his book signing and autograph session.

 

[Cryozombie]

So, both Bussey and Hayes are from the Bujinkan (I knew about Hayes, but not Bussey), but the question is, where are they in comparison to some of the others from Bujinkan who would be considered high level?

Well... to be fair, I dont think you can judge an Art like that... Hayes may be better than say, (and I am randomly using names, none of this is "real" informaton) Ed Sones, but worse than Doron Navone... but would that prove his branch is better or worse? Or only that he himself is better than student A, but not Student B?

 

[r.severe]

Hayes shihan is one of the best if not the best over all leaders, knowledgeable students, teachers, etc. of the traditional and modern Bujinkan arts in the world living.

I don't believe from what I have experienced that he has watered down anything. I feel he teaches the arts as he feels they should be trained at the levels of his followers. This might seem watered down to someone without knowledge of the arts first hand experience in them, say 5 to 6 years or more.

If he was in Dallas Texico I would be a student of his in a second.
I feel he has a great deal to offer.

As for R Bussey.... he is by far no where near the knowledge or experience as Hayes shihan in the Bujinkan arts. He is skilled form what I have seen on his tapes. But skilled at what? Good question. I believe it was basic Togakure ryu and Hapkido mix.. but by far anything mid level of advanced as far as Bujinkan arts go.

These are just my opinions..

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Tgace]

Now, I dont study ninjutsu (would like to) but have followed it since the 80's...I seem to recall there being some sort of controversy over SKH's use of "earth, wind, water, fire, void" approcah to teaching the art. Something about that being his invention but passing it off as part of his original teaching?? Am I remembering that right?

 

[Genin Andrew]

I have read two of Hayes' books and once you get over the fact he is an american ninja i found alot of truth in what he says and like someone mentioned eralier he "knows his stuff" as for the elements and the void stuff that is described in his book "Ninja:And their secret fighting art" but i'm not sure whether its traditional teachings or his own input...not sure whether anyone can capitalise on that?:asian: