Question

[Unsung Hero]

I hope this doesn't count as "trolling" or "spamming" or anything like that....But I have a question about Stephen K. Hayes....what exactly did he do that made everyone hate him? I've just been reading a lot of negative things about him lately, and I just wanted to know what was going on with him?

 

[Bigshadow]

I hope this doesn't count as "trolling" or "spamming" or anything like that....But I have a question about Stephen K. Hayes....what exactly did he do that made everyone hate him? I've just been reading a lot of negative things about him lately, and I just wanted to know what was going on with him?

I don't hate him. If it weren't for his books when I was in my teens, I probably wouldn't have been aware that Ninjutsu existed. At least not at that time in my life.

To be honest, I don't think people "hate" him at all. Most are probably more indifferent (ie... just don't care) regarding him. But that is my opinion only.

 

[Unsung Hero]

Yes, but isn't there supposedly a lot of controversy surrounding him right now? I just wanted to know what the whole controversy thing was. I heard he get his name taken off the list or something at the Bujinkan dojo, but wasn't there more to it?

 

[Don Roley]

Do some reading of some of the threads here, especially the ones in the Toshindo section. Some of us do not want to get into that whole mess again. You can get your answers that way without us repeating a lot of stuff that led to a lot of bad feelings.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Do some reading of some of the threads here, especially the ones in the Toshindo section. Some of us do not want to get into that whole mess again. You can get your answers that way without us repeating a lot of stuff that led to a lot of bad feelings.

Yes, just take a look at some of the different threads and you should get a good idea of the situation.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Bigshadow]

You can get your answers that way without us repeating a lot of stuff that led to a lot of bad feelings.

I agree! :asian:

 

[Unsung Hero]

Alright, I guess I'll do that, haha. Sorry for bothering you.

 

[cloud]

Alright, I guess I'll do that, haha. Sorry for bothering you.

This is in the case that you have a hard time trying to find out the information from all the thread, I will try to be as unbiased as possible so it to avoid all the hard feeling.

Mr. Hayes has brought ninjutsu to the public by mean of several media, which unavoidably made him very famous. Like any stars, some people likes you, some people don't.

He took a totally different approach with the art and decide to modernize it. Some people likes it to be taught the way it has always been; traditional way. Perhaps some interpretted his modernization of the art to offset an incorrect perspective of ninjutsu and so consequently they are against it. There are other issues following this divergence from Bujinkan to Toshindo. but to the best of my understanding this is where it descend from; one wants to keep it traditional and one wants to modernize it to suit the western world.

Why did Mr. Hayes do it if this were to cause him problems and hard feeling? No one truly knows the answer this. I think it is best to address this in Toshindo forum to be respectful of the Bujinkan as my possibly incorrect information souce may lead to unpleasant arguments I wish not to occur.

Cloud

 

[Drac]

I don't hate him.
To be honest, I don't think people "hate" him at all.

Same here...

 

[Don Roley]

He took a totally different approach with the art and decide to modernize it. Some people likes it to be taught the way it has always been; traditional way.

Oh boy.

You just possibly set the fuse to something we had to stamp out a while back.

Some people have said that Hayes "modernized" the art. The implies that those that study "traditional" ninjutsu are out of touch with the reality of the modern day. Some Toshindo members that ended up banned tried to push this idea on these boards.

The thing is, I really can't point to a particular way that Hayes has modernized the art. At least not in comparison with Hatsumi. Hatsumi has a book on knife and pistol fighting. Hayes does not have anything like that AFAIK. And Hayes has DVDs on the traditional kata of the Bujinkan, but certifies people in them under the Toshindo name.

So I would say it is safe to say that he took his art in a direction he thought best. But I do not see a lot of modernizing in comparison to the Bujinkan.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The Bujinkan is very, very modern in it's teaching's and has consistently evolved with Hatsumi Sensei. It also has a very rich tradition and history. I have to agree with Don, in that Hayes just took To Shin Do in another direction.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com