Mr. Hayes Ninjutsu branch school in Ann Arbor, MI?

[Tensei85]

Hey,

Just wondering if anyone has heard or knows if this school has a good reputation?

Anyone had any experiences at any of the Hayes training centers?

And what your thoughts are of it?

Or even better has anyone been a student?

So far in Ann Arbor there are 3 Ninjutsu training facilities. Two are in Central Campus next to the University. (then again in Ann Arbor whats not next to the University? lol)

and the other one is on the other side of town which is the Stephen Hayes training faclity. The other two are of different lineages however.

Thanks

 

[Tensei85]

Here's the website for the one on Central Campus:

http://www.chicago-ninjutsu.org/usdojo/michigan.htm


Here's the other school that references Stephen Hayes:

http://www.quest-martialarts.com/default.html

thanks for comments,

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Sorry I cannot help you on the Quest Center branch but I can assure you that the UofM dojo headed by Mike Asuncion is fantastic!

 

[Tensei85]

Awesome! Thanks a lot, I've checked out one of the Dojo's on Campus. I'll have to schedule a time to check out the other one. Thanks for the good rep's on the UofM Ninjutsu Dojo.

 

[ToShinDoKa]

Good luck with your search man, but as one who's had the opportunity to train at multiple Quest Centers and at Hayes-hosted seminars: it's a priceless training experience. I've heard great things about the teachers up at Ann Arbor Quest Center, and have seen their teachers in action.

IMO, one can't go wrong at a Quest Center. I wish that I didn't have to travel 4 hours to get to my closet one...but I never regret the trip!

Again, try both out; shop around, so to speak, and I'm sure you'll find what fits you.

To-Shin!

 

[Tensei85]

Good luck with your search man, but as one who's had the opportunity to train at multiple Quest Centers and at Hayes-hosted seminars: it's a priceless training experience. I've heard great things about the teachers up at Ann Arbor Quest Center, and have seen their teachers in action.

IMO, one can't go wrong at a Quest Center. I wish that I didn't have to travel 4 hours to get to my closet one...but I never regret the trip!

Again, try both out; shop around, so to speak, and I'm sure you'll find what fits you.

To-Shin!

Yea, actually I checked out the one at the U of M Central Campus.
It was pretty cool! But still have yet to check out the Quest Center, actually my brother really wanted to start training Ninjutsu so I'll probably sign him up there. (due to the fact the U of M requires a student access card, which a highscool student as my brother can't get lol)

But yea, thanks for the good rep for the Quest Centers. Surprisingly I never knew it was there until I went to find a Dim Sum restaurant and ran into it.

 

[ToShinDoKa]

Yea, actually I checked out the one at the U of M Central Campus.
It was pretty cool! But still have yet to check out the Quest Center, actually my brother really wanted to start training Ninjutsu so I'll probably sign him up there. (due to the fact the U of M requires a student access card, which a highscool student as my brother can't get lol)

But yea, thanks for the good rep for the Quest Centers. Surprisingly I never knew it was there until I went to find a Dim Sum restaurant and ran into it.

Glad I could help in some way.

 

[jadamsm]

Hello. Don't know if you're still looking around at the local schools, but there is another group and school you might want to look into. The UM group is called the Godai Ninpo Association. I trained with them while I was at UM (just graduated in May) and thought they were pretty awesome. They train a lot in the league and union, so no access card needed.

Some of them have opened an affiliate commercial school called the Ann Arbor College of Martial Arts. So if you are looking for a more dojo feel I would definitely try there. Hope this helps if you or someone you know is still looking!

 

[BobbyG]

Hello!

First post here, but I think I can help.

I train at the Ann Arbor Quest center, and I love it. The teachers are great, the people are great, and To Shin Do is a fine art in my opinion.

I've only been training since early June, so I'm still in level one (Earth), but my experience has been nothing but fantastic. If you have more specific questions I would be happy to answer them.

 

[Muawijhe]

Welcome to MartialTalk and the art, BobbyG!

Look forward to your contributions here.

 

[Metalninja88]

Hi, I'm new here and this is my first post as well. I have a little input for preferences. I would lean more towards whoever has had the most direct training with either Dr. Hatsuumi or Tanemura to be absolutely sure your getting authenticity. I first trained in Denver Colorado at a dojo called Genshirin Ninpo Dojo 2002 era. School went out of business after it got burglarized at night due to it being off of Colfax Ave. And after they raised the rent on them, they couldn't keep up because there were such few students. But from there being such few students, I got the best formal training with my Sensei who happened to be brothers; Stephen and Jason Ross who received there teaching from Sensei Lyle Benson of Kaizen Dojo, and also direct training with Tanemura. One brother was a weapons master, and the other was all tai jutsu and jiujutsu. Some days I went to class and it was just me. He's ask, what I wanted to learn and I always would pick things never taught in big classes, so I picked the Kusari Kama lol as a white belt. And needless to say it was some of the most traditional training I've ever encountered in a dojo. I went until the school eventually went under in 05-06, ended with a green belt.
I took Shao Lin kung fu under the Chinese Shao Lin center of Denver that was off of 38 and Tennyson, loved it but it went under as well. Went to pick up my brown belt after testing the class before and the for lease sign was up. Sucked.
So then I went to Kaizen Dojo which was a very large Ninpo School that is still there in Colorado under Sensei Lyle Benson. Excellent school but I struggled since I worked full time in a kitchen and the only classes I could ever make were the senior and black belt classes. So ranking up was impossible for me but Sensei still gave degrees for showing up and performing my hardest. The classes for a little over the top for pricing. I was paying 235 a month. One class walk in was 75 (2013). But he had the most time spent as far as Ninpo teachers of Denver CO goes. And he produced masters, like the guys and gals I'd train with in his senior rank and black belt classes were on point and well on their way to mastery. Sensei would allow those students also to go on trips to Japan and train over their and visit Hatsuumis dojo and take a class with him and Tanemura. You could pay to live there and be taught under them as well is what I was told. The Bujinkan itself is an excellent opportunity to brush shoulders with the higher ranks, lot of opportunities.
But there are always factors to consider, at the same time I still say any direct training your Sensei have had with them is what gives a credit to being bujinkan authenticated as well. So certain accreditations is what I typically look for. Otherwise it's all about the teacher, they are what help teach you, 'teach yourself' as discipline and what you want to put in.

 

[Buka]

Welcome to MatrialTalk, Metalninja88.

 

[Efyne]

Hayes basically made up everything, I woldn't trust a school founded by a shameless fraud, same with Hatsumi (Bujinkan) and all derivates, I am preparing a script for a video and this is what I've documented so far, it's a chatgpt translation (I'm not native english speaker):

-Maasaki Hatsumi, founder of Bujinkan, claims to be the 34th generation soke of Togakure-ryu, the 28th generation soke of Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu, and the 26th generation soke of Kukishinden-ryu Happo Hikenjutsu.Taking as a reference two of the oldest koryu in Japan, Katori Shinto-ryu: 20th generation and Kashima Shinryu: 19th generation, with documented beginnings in the 15th century (1400 AD), Hatsumi's claims do not fit with the active period of feudal espionage. It also doesn't align that he claims to be the 26th soke of Shinden Fudo-ryu, when his teacher Takamatsu was the 25th soke, claiming origins no less than in the 11th century, 400 years before historians accept the first organized schools in such lineages, and 200 years before the sufficiently widespread use of espionage and counter-information specialists (the shinobi) to even imagine ninja traditions.

-Hatsumi claimed that Emperor Hirohito gave him the title of Living National Treasure of Japan, but that title is not given to martial arts other than katori ryu. This recognition does not appear in any official record and is only claimed by Bujinkan itself, but the main official Japanese organizations, Nihon Kobudo Kyokai and Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai, recognized by the Emperor, do not give any credibility to Hatsumi, and consider him a "persona non grata".

-Ellis Amdur and Karl Friday, both authorities on the history of feudal Japan and recognized masters of Japanese Koryu (ancient schools), publicly assert that Bujinkan has no real historical basis and describe Maasaki Hatsumi's credentials as absurd.

-Hatsumi claims to have a 10th dan in karate, 8th dan in aikido, 6th dan in judo, and 6th dan in kobudo, but to this day no Japanese school has come forward to certify that Hatsumi achieved those ranks within it. What has come to light is that Ueno Takashi of Asayama Ichiden-ryu sent a Hamon (expulsion notice) to Hatsumi after only 3 years of studying with him.

About Hatsumi's teacher, the 33rd soke Toshitsugu Takamatsu

-The only official mention of Takamatsu as "soke" was in the third edition of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, written by Watatani Kyonshi, a personal friend of his, and it states that Takamatsu is the creator of ninpo-ryuha and ninja gokko "ninja games for children". This places Hatsumi's teacher as the first soke of a style invented by himself.

-Takamatsu claims to have learned from and to be the successor of Toda Masamitsu, but he died years before Takamatsu was born.

-Takamatsu was accused of fraud for presenting hand-made copies of supposed manuscripts destroyed during the war.

-The youthful anecdotes of Takamatsu, collected in Bujinkan texts and Hatsumi's books, are highly improbable, including defeating bands of bandits in the mountains, deadly duels, and defeating groups of thugs with supernatural techniques. These stories were never certified. However, it is known that Toshitsugu Takamatsu attempted to join the army but was rejected for failing the basic physical entrance test.




To add to the confusion, even the recognized historical fonts (shoninki, bansensukai and ninpiden) are considered a old made up fakes to be selled at colectionist, and the methods and stuff depicted on them does not stack up realistically.

I am also a ninjutsu practicioner, from a brand that once followed the more historical aproach of Anthony Cummins, before he shifted to samurai fantasy organizations with people wearing the same clothes over the world or some weird crap. We keep studying and investigating, sorry to say, but there is no ''real'' ninjutsu that have survived, the Fuma brand is invented by another charlatan Chichun Yuan (I guess, I'm speaking on memory), that changes his name to Harunaka Hoshino when he comes to the states and start saying that a misterios ninja neighbor, teach him ninjutsu Frank Dux style (another charlatan with mental problems).

Bankeshinobiden brand, uses Jinichi Kawakami to legitimate their claim of ''real ninjutsu'', a man that worked on the gift shop of ninja museum of Iga, and one good day said... I am the last ninja alive! and then try to arrange a fight with the tiger of the zoo... All that that man say is pure comedy nonsense, as like he was teached to dislocate joints to fit in small spaces and weird stuff medically... problematic, if you dislocate your joints, you will damage the nervs plus a lot of things, also his steel ball training is just stupid. The Iga Museum itself is just an atraction for baka gaijin, and exposes chokuto's as ''ninjatos'', a fantasy made up weapon by Stephen Hayes itself, with no historical base, as anything Mr. Hayes, that have learned ''ninjutsu'' from the fraud Maasaki Hatsumi, considered a ungratefull person in Japan for his lies, have ever said.


Our school also have a ''real last ninja alive'' sort of thing (nowadays he is dead) that have much more sense historically speaking, but his tradition is not related to martial world and it's probably a Meiji era asimilation rather than a historical reality, and you don't have to belive on it like a sect.

We are very local centered and not known, don't even have a web or any expansion plans, but the 3 founder masters are writting a book that may be translated to english on release date, one of the masters is a verified retired inteligence officer who also wrote a book about real spionage, and the other have a japanese real martial family (not ninja) tradition heritage of something that have never surfaced comercially.

With that I don't pretend to state that ''my school is more ninja than yours'', I am just saying, that ninjutsu itself is a modern fraud, and we also have borned from that fraud. Hayes is a consumed liar that have made a life on a big scam.

 

[isshinryuronin]

You seem to have done a great amount of research, but as I have little knowledge of ninja and shinobi (is there a difference?) I can't comment on the details or academics. I do know that they specialized in what in the military is called "SERE" (survival, evasion, resistance and escape, along with espionage/intel gathering and the occasional assassination. Of course, some martial skills are needed to do this, but only to support the afore mentioned main objectives.

there is no ''real'' ninjutsu that have survived.........With that I don't pretend to state that ''my school is more ninja than yours'', I am just saying, that ninjutsu itself is a modern fraud, and we also have borned from that fraud.

Your honesty in these quotes lends authenticity to your post. Of course, this may just be what the real surviving, secret ninjas want us to believe