Not Yang Style !?!?

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

Go here for the full Yang Family tree including the fourth son Yang Zhen Guo. It lists all the family from Lu Chan down to present day great, great, grandchildren.
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/info/images/familytree.jpg

I'm not sure why the Yang family do not retain some of the old forms. You would need a family member to answer that one. It may be that they consider Cheng fu's form as the final synthesis of Yang Family taijiquan. Cheng-fu did say of his form.... "That is it. It cannot be improved upon. To change one thing would be to destroy the essence of the form". Perhaps Cheng man-ching would have been wise to regard that.

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

Go here for the full Yang Family tree including the fourth son Yang Zhen Guo. It lists all the family from Lu Chan down to present day great, great, grandchildren.
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/info/images/familytree.jpg

I'm not sure why the Yang family do not retain some of the old forms. You would need a family member to answer that one. It may be that they consider Cheng fu's form as the final synthesis of Yang Family taijiquan. Cheng-fu did say of his form.... "That is it. It cannot be improved upon. To change one thing would be to destroy the essence of the form". Perhaps Cheng man-ching would have been wise to regard that.

Very best wishes

It lists all the children and Grandchildren of Chengfu. It does not list anything past the sons of Yang Zhao Yuan & Yang Shaohou, Yang Chengfu's older brothers. This I find interesting and have been trying to find out why for a while now. And admittedly I know little about Zhao Yuan, but I will have to research further.

And I should probably add I mean no disrespect to the Yang family or the style they teach, I just find this type of stuff intriguing.

But you are correct only the Yang family knows for sure.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

Thanks for the input. I, of course, am not here to defend the Yang family and therefore I take no offence at anything you write about them. I think part of the problem is that the traditional famies only considered succession to come through the male line. It may be that the succession stopped at Yang Cong and Yang Zhen Sheng either because there was no issue or the children were female. Of course I could be way off the mark here, but I suspect that is the case with Yang Shouzhong's (Sau Chung) lineage (Cheng Fu's eldest son). I believe he only had daughters. I stand to be corrected on that aspect though. Yang Zhen Guo I believe teaches only a short form in China today and does not therefore teach his fathers form. Any information or correction would be appreciated.

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

Thanks for the input. I, of course, am not here to defend the Yang family and therefore I take no offence at anything you write about them. I think part of the problem is that the traditional famies only considered succession to come through the male line. It may be that the succession stopped at Yang Cong and Yang Zhen Sheng either because there was no issue or the children were female. Of course I could be way off the mark here, but I suspect that is the case with Yang Shouzhong's (Sau Chung) lineage (Cheng Fu's eldest son). I believe he only had daughters. I stand to be corrected on that aspect though. Yang Zhen Guo I believe teaches only a short form in China today and does not therefore teach his fathers form. Any information or correction would be appreciated.

Very best wishes

Your are correct about the lineage holders. Tung Ying Cheih has a daughter that is still living in Hong Kong, but I am not sure if she even knows Tai Chi and the lineage holder was his son that moved to Hawaii, he has since passed away however. It is now I believe his Grandson and Great Grandson.

But there is always an exception to the rule. The Sun family lineage holder was most recently Sun Lutang daughter but she died in 2003, I am not sure who it is now.

As for the Children of the Yang family members in question. It is something I am going to research as soon as I have more time. When and if I find anything I will let you know,

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

I will look forward to the results of your research with interest.

Just as an aside, which part of China do you visit?

Very best wishes

P.S. I have just found out that Yang Sou Chung did have a son, but he died at an early age. How early, I don't know.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

I will look forward to the results of your research with interest.

Just as an aside, which part of China do you visit?

Very best wishes

P.S. I have just found out that Yang Sou Chung did have a son, but he died at an early age. How early, I don't know.

It will be awhile before I get back to it, this change back to Chen is taking much of my time as well as the other demands we all have in life.

As for China, I go to Beijng. However I will not be going back until after the Olympics, the entire place is a construction zone currently. But I have been informed that on the next visit I also need to go to Henan. Sadly Henan is where Chen village and Cheng Zhenlei are (He is the person the Local Chen group is associated with) as well as Shaolin. As brare rabbit said, "Oh please oh please don't throw me into the briar patch"

Thanks for the P.S.

 

[wuchi]

Originally posted by East Winds
Wuchi,

Thanks for the reply. You raise some interesting and relevant points. First of all let me say what I have said many times on this board before. I have no problem with Cheng Man-ching form or Tung forms or any other form for that matter, so long as they do what they say on the tin!!! I believe that what the Yang family are teaching today (Yang Zhen Ji, Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Jun) is as close to what Yang Cheng-fu finally formulated as you are likely to get. Now, if I bought a Skoda car and stuck a Rolls Royce emblem on the front, would I be driving a Skoda or a Rolls Royce. I cannot really understand the desparation of Cheng Man-Ching practitioners to label their style Yang!! What's wrong with Cheng Man-ching style? I do have both books you mention and if you look at the photographs of Yang Cheng-fu and Cheng Man-Ching do you really believe they are doing the same form? I did not say that Cheng Man-ching form violated the essences. If you read my post you see that that referred to the modern Wushu forms. However, Cheng-fu clearly thought that 10 essences were sufficient to support his form without the addition of any more. I am not sure that the current Yang Family do ignore the ancestors. They are certainly all listed on their family tree. I think they believe that these earlier forms were lost (despite the exagerated claims of some pratitioners) and that they now follow that style formulated finally by Yang Cheng-fu, their father.

Very best wishes

Personally I am very proud to call my taiji Cheng Tze's tai chi (CMC taiji) or simply taijquan. However, like others from my lineage I have no problem with it being called SIMPLIFIED Yang's taiji.

Correct postures and form are very important otherwise one would never get there, so are the principles outlined in the classics. Yang Chengfu's contribution was huge, so were his ancestors and their abilities have always been regarded as invincible and above that of his. If there is one way only to do a perfect form and that alone is the single most important thing, don't you think Wang Chung Yue, Yang Chengfu's ancestors plus others would have left behind scrolls of drawings rather than just some worded principles and wisdoms?

I can see the plight of Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zen Dou regarding Traditional Yang's Taiji but I am glad not every one is sharing their view.

For your information:
During 23-26 August 2003 at Suzho, China. Professor Shi Yeming of the Shanghai Tungji University Taijquan Study Group organised the inaugural meeting for the 5th generation Yang's Taijquan disciples from all over the world.

One of the main purposes of the meeting was to unite the 5th generation disciples and promote the contribution of the 4th generation Yang's masters.

Following was the list of people attended, representing various 4th generation Yang's masters:

Yang Sau Chung (YCF's oldest son) lineage was represented by
> Ma Wei Huann (Hong Kong)

Fu Chung Wen lineage was represented by
> Shi Yeming (Shanghai, China)
> Chen Guo Jen (Shanghai, China)
> Hung Je Zhing (Guangxi, China)
> Guh Shu Ping (Shanghai, China)
> Hu Ching Lu (Kantan, China)

Zhao Bin lineage was represented by
> Li Zheng (Guangdong, China)
> Zhao Yu Bin - youngest son of Zhao Bin (Xian, China)
> Lu Di Min (Xian, China)

Cheng Man Ching lineage was represented by
> Benjamin Law (USA)
> Katy Cheng - second daughter of CMC (USA)
> Hsu Yi Chung - gate keeper of CMC taijiquan (Taiwan)

Niu Chun Ming lineage was represented by
> Mong Shien Min (Hangzhow, China)
> Mok Ruu Dong (Hangzhow, China)

Fu Chung Yuen lineage was represented by
> Hao Hung Wei (Hebei, China)

Tian Chao Ling lineage was represented by
> Wang Ming Shan (Nanjing, China)

Tung Ying Chieh lineage was represented by
> Jasmine Tung - Tung Ying Chieh's youngest daughter (Hong Kong)

Chan Wei Ming lineage was represented by
> Wei Chyuan (Wuhan, China)

One of the things noted in that meeting was Chen Wei Ming, Niu Chun Ming, Li Ya Shien, Tung Ying Chieh, Tian Chao Ling and Cheng Man Ching did their form differently from Yang Chengfu. So did Yang Sau Chung, Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zen Dou to a certain degree.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Personally I am very proud to call my taiji Cheng Tze's tai chi (CMC taiji) or simply taijquan. However, like others from my lineage I have no problem with it being called SIMPLIFIED Yang's taiji.

I would not refer to CMC as simplified Yang myself, but if that is what is accepted by its practitioners then I guess it is up to them. To me CMC has its own intricacies that make it very good. I admittedly only trained in briefly, but I did not stop because I did not like it. To be honest I like it better than the Yang (or Tung whatever it is considered now) I trained for 12 years. It was just my schedule and the Sifu's Schedule were not even close to matching up, so I had to stop. However I still like Chen best, but someday if I get a chance I will go back to CMC.

CMC, at lest to me, had the side that was focused on health aspects like all Tai Chi forms, but it also had a side that was focused on application, free style push hands and martial arts. But this may be because what I trained came from William CC Chen, I have no idea what the others of this lineage focus on.

To me simplified Yang is Beijing style (Yang 24) or the Yang 48.

For your information:
During 23-26 August 2003 at Suzho, China. Professor Shi Yeming of the Shanghai Tungji University Taijquan Study Group organised the inaugural meeting for the 5th generation Yang's Taijquan disciples from all over the world.

One of the main purposes of the meeting was to unite the 5th generation disciples and promote the contribution of the 4th generation Yang's masters.

Following was the list of people attended, representing various 4th generation Yang's masters:

Yang Sau Chung (YCF's oldest son) lineage was represented by
> Ma Wei Huann (Hong Kong)

Fu Chung Wen lineage was represented by
> Shi Yeming (Shanghai, China)
> Chen Guo Jen (Shanghai, China)
> Hung Je Zhing (Guangxi, China)
> Guh Shu Ping (Shanghai, China)
> Hu Ching Lu (Kantan, China)

Zhao Bin lineage was represented by
> Li Zheng (Guangdong, China)
> Zhao Yu Bin - youngest son of Zhao Bin (Xian, China)
> Lu Di Min (Xian, China)

Cheng Man Ching lineage was represented by
> Benjamin Law (USA)
> Katy Cheng - second daughter of CMC (USA)
> Hsu Yi Chung - gate keeper of CMC taijiquan (Taiwan)

Niu Chun Ming lineage was represented by
> Mong Shien Min (Hangzhow, China)
> Mok Ruu Dong (Hangzhow, China)

Fu Chung Yuen lineage was represented by
> Hao Hung Wei (Hebei, China)

Tian Chao Ling lineage was represented by
> Wang Ming Shan (Nanjing, China)

Tung Ying Chieh lineage was represented by
> Jasmine Tung - Tung Ying Chieh's youngest daughter (Hong Kong)

Chan Wei Ming lineage was represented by
> Wei Chyuan (Wuhan, China)

One of the things noted in that meeting was Chen Wei Ming, Niu Chun Ming, Li Ya Shien, Tung Ying Chieh, Tian Chao Ling and Cheng Man Ching did their form differently from Yang Chengfu. So did Yang Sau Chung, Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zen Dou to a certain degree.

Thank You for this, I was aware that it occurred but I did not know who attended. Also it was my understanding that Jasmine Tung did not know Tai Chi, but once again I am fully willing to admit I am wrong here, and hoping that I am actually. I got this info from my Sifu who was a student of Tung Ying Chieh, long story that I will not go into again.

Was there any representation of the line from Yang Banhou or Yang Shouhao?

 

[East Winds]

Wu Chi,

Thanks for the input. Let me state again quite unequivocably, I have no problem with Chen Man-ching style Taijiquan. It is a very able fighting, as well as health giving form. It is just not anything like what Yang Chen-fu formulated as his final form. And it is this final form that the present day Yang family call "Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan" to distinguish it from the many other Yang variations that exist. I too was aware of the meeting that took place in 2003, but found it interesting that neither Fu Zhong Wen (one of the most prominent 4th generation disciples) nor any of the present day Yang Family were represented. There is no doubt that what Fu Zhong Wen tranmsmitted was as close to what Yang Cheng-fu finally formulated as it is possible to get. (and as I have said before, Cheng-fu said of it "That is it. It cannot be improved upon. To change one thing would be to destroy the essence of the form". It is this form that the present day Yang family are trying to preserve. The conclusion must be therefore that any other "Yang" style, cannot be in accordance with what Yang Cheng-fu considered the absolute sythesis of "Yang Shi Taijiquan".

Very best wishes

 

[wuchi]

East Winds,

Forgotten to change Fu's name to the more popular Pinyin form.

Professor Shi Yeming is from the Fu Zhong Wen lineage.

Fu Zhong Wen lineage was represented by
> Shi Yeming (Shanghai, China)
> Chen Guo Jen (Shanghai, China)
> Hung Je Zhing (Guangxi, China)
> Guh Shu Ping (Shanghai, China)
> Hu Ching Lu (Kantan, China)

 

[wuchi]

Originally Posted by Xue Sheng

Was there any representation of the line from Yang Banhou or Yang Shouhao?

As far as I know only those people on the list attended that meeting.

 

[Xue Sheng]

As far as I know only those people on the list attended that meeting.

Thank You

 

[East Winds]

Wuchi,

Thanks for the additional information.

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

I will look forward to the results of your research with interest.

Just as an aside, which part of China do you visit?

Very best wishes

P.S. I have just found out that Yang Sou Chung did have a son, but he died at an early age. How early, I don't know.

Eastwind

This answered some of my questions and you may find this interesting as well. See "the letter that Yang Jun wrote"
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000007.html

XS

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

Many thanks for that fascinating link. Although I have been a member of the International Yang Style Tai Chi Association for three years now and have been working my way through the BB, I had not seen this particular series of posts. It certainly puts a lot of pieces of the jigsaw into place.

I have fond memories of Beijing. In particular standing with the crowd outside Ritan Park at 6.00am waiting for the gates to open and going in, doing some Taiji and then having my mind blown watching the variety of activities being performed!!!!

Many thanks again for the link.

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

Many thanks for that fascinating link. Although I have been a member of the International Yang Style Tai Chi Association for three years now and have been working my way through the BB, I had not seen this particular series of posts. It certainly puts a lot of pieces of the jigsaw into place.

I have fond memories of Beijing. In particular standing with the crowd outside Ritan Park at 6.00am waiting for the gates to open and going in, doing some Taiji and then having my mind blown watching the variety of activities being performed!!!!

Many thanks again for the link.

Very best wishes

Most unfortunately I was going through a bit of a Martial Arts breakdown, due to my teachers change of teaching style, that lead to a minor epiphany when I was last in Beijing so I pretty much did nothing but get disgusted and decide it was time to change or quit.

And what I ran into most in Yang style was a best contributing to my decision to change or quit (to many people doing 24 form badly) and the few (3) Chen style people I saw were amazing and the 2 (very) old guys doing Long fist left me speechless, but I was still not ready to admit after 12 years of Yang that I should change. But the rest of my Beijing trip was fantastic.

But next time it will be better.

 

[Xue Sheng]

To answer the question as to what style I do, Dong style or Yang Style?

Yes, depending on the form.

The long for 103 or 108, depending on how you count, that I do is considered Yang Style Tai Chi as taught by Tung Ying Chieh. If I trained with the Dong family today it would be Yang style as taught by the Dong family.

However there are 2 fast forms Dong style and Yang style and they are very different and the jury is still out as to whether there are Dong family specific Weapons forms.

So at least in part it is Yang style Tai Chi, but in reality I find that it is really not that important after all. Tai Chi is Tai Chi just as long as it is good Tai Chi.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

I think you are absolutely right, that it dosen't matter what Taiji you do, so long as it is good Taiji!! Tung style is certainly much closer to what Yang Cheng-fu finally taught, than many of the other styles that call themselves "Yang". I suppose us Yang stylists should consider it a compliment that so many other forms wish to associate themselves with the Yang family. However, as a purist, I sometimes shudder when I see some of the forms of Taiji calling themselves Yang style, and my immediate reaction is to say - that is not Yang style!!! (Cheng Man-ching, 24, 48 and 88 step being prime examples). Better not get the soap box out again!!! :erg:

Good to have you back by the way :asian:

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

However, as a purist, I sometimes shudder when I see some of the forms of Taiji calling themselves Yang style, and my immediate reaction is to say - that is not Yang style!!! (Cheng Man-ching, 24, 48 and 88 step being prime examples). Better not get the soap box out again!!! :erg:

Good to have you back by the way :asian:

Very best wishes

Thanks and you're not alone, I feel the same way about the things called Yang these days.

Forgive me for adding this but before we both get jumped in this post for the Cheng Manching part. I am not nor do I believe you are saying anything against Cheng Manching style, I believe we have had this conversation before. It is a great style, and I even did it for a little while and I rather liked it. But if you compare Cheng Manching's long form to Yang Chengfu's long form they are considerably different as is Yang 103 from Chen 1st old form, Therefore I usually do not refer to it as Yang style, I call it Cheng Manching style.

But 24, 48 and 88 that is a different story. Although I will have to admit my very first form was 24 and I still do it from time to time. But it now looks very different and very traditional.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

Yes, of course, as I have said many times on this board, I have no problem with Cheng Man-ching style. I have seen it as a fighting form and very effective it is too!! And yes, like you, I still do 24 step occassionaly but in the style of Traditonal Yang, not the flailing arms and legs and exagerated postures you see so often in that form!!!

Very best wishes