Not Yang Style !?!?

[Xue Sheng]

OK, I am shocked and the next guy…. Ok probably more so… the next guy probably couldn’t care less…. but I have come to the conclusion that after 12 years of studying Yang style that I was not studying Yang style, or at least not according to the Yang family and Tung/Dong family

But wait it gets more confusing.

My teacher did call it Yang Style and he not wrong, from his perspective. His teacher was Tung Ying Cheih and as far as I know master Tung taught Yang style and never said anything to the contrary.

But now the Yang family has declared that those taught via Tung Ying Cheih are not learning Yang style but Tung style. (This by the way is the same thing as Dong Style)

And the Tung/Dong family teaches its family form called… you guessed it… Dong style.

Now after much video viewing of Old Yang style guys and Yang Jun and then comparing them to what I do and what I saw Tung Ying Chieh do in an old film. I am doing Dong Style.

Yang and Dong are very similar but have some obvious differences. Could be because prior to studying with Yang Chengfu, Tung Ying Chieh studied Wu style, I believe Wu/Hao style to be honest. Also there was some speculation. Although not proven as far as I am concerned that Master Tung studied Yang style with Yang Shaohou until Shaohou's death and then studied with Yang Chengfu.

So now I have to go and buy Tung Ying Cheih’s book to see what the heck I was suppose to be doing, since it is not Yang style and I have based everything on the fact I did Yang style…which I apparently do not.

This does not change the fact I am returning to Chen style, but it does mean…. Well to be honest I am not sure what it means.

 

[Flying Crane]

I dunno, maybe it doesn't mean anything. Since most of the other established styles came from Yang originally, they share the same root. I hadn't heard of a Dong or Tung style. Is it "appropriate" for the Yang family to suddenly push out someone and claim that a different party now teaches a style with their name on it, if that person never made the claim themselves? These arts change from generation to generation and person to person. You will NEVER find any two people who do it exactly alike, even from the same family. So what makes Tung style suddenly not Yang? I don't know.

My sifu teaches some Yang style. I don't know who he learned it from, I don't know how different it might be from how the official Yang Family does it. Does this make it "Fong Style"? I don't think so. It's just Yang style done according to how he understands it. Where do you draw the line in separating something? If Tung didn't try to make the separation, I'd say it's really just a variant of Yang.

Of course I don't have any familiarity with Tung, so I don't know if it really is different. Just my thoughts, tho.

 

[crushing]

Like sands through the hour glass, so are the days of our lives. Sounds like some sort of MA soap opera. In which episode do you start the search for your biological father that was kidnapped by the local mafia family?

Whatever it means, I'm sure you have made and will make the best of it. Oh, and I hope the Chen style you return to is really Chen style.

Best,
crushing

 

[charyuop]

The weird is that Yang family is coming out now after so many years. I wonder if recently something happened between the two families and Yang family wanted to hurt them just by diregardin what Tung family has been teaching.
If I were you I would try to contact someone from the lineage of Tung family to "politely" ask for information.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I dunno, maybe it doesn't mean anything. Since most of the other established styles came from Yang originally, they share the same root. I hadn't heard of a Dong or Tung style. Is it "appropriate" for the Yang family to suddenly push out someone and claim that a different party now teaches a style with their name on it, if that person never made the claim themselves? These arts change from generation to generation and person to person. You will NEVER find any two people who do it exactly alike, even from the same family. So what makes Tung style suddenly not Yang? I don't know.

My sifu teaches some Yang style. I don't know who he learned it from, I don't know how different it might be from how the official Yang Family does it. Does this make it "Fong Style"? I don't think so. It's just Yang style done according to how he understands it. Where do you draw the line in separating something? If Tung didn't try to make the separation, I'd say it's really just a variant of Yang.

Of course I don't have any familiarity with Tung, so I don't know if it really is different. Just my thoughts, tho.

I'm short on time right now, more later, but here is a link to the Tung/Dong Family if you are interested
http://www.dongtaichi.com/

 

[Xue Sheng]

Like sands through the hour glass, so are the days of our lives. Sounds like some sort of MA soap opera. In which episode do you start the search for your biological father that was kidnapped by the local mafia family?

Whatever it means, I'm sure you have made and will make the best of it. Oh, and I hope the Chen style you return to is really Chen style.

Best,
crushing

Chen will be no problem, it comes from Chen Zhenglei, can't get much more Chen family than that. They are very exact when it comes to what is and what isn't Chen and have been for a very long time. Beides the only thing that even looks close is Zhaobao and that comes directly form a Chen family mamber.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The weird is that Yang family is coming out now after so many years. I wonder if recently something happened between the two families and Yang family wanted to hurt them just by diregardin what Tung family has been teaching.
If I were you I would try to contact someone from the lineage of Tung family to "politely" ask for information.

Doubtful, they also recently made it clear that Cheng Manching is not Yang style either.

I think they are just trying to seperate themselves from the others.

Even though both Tung and Cheng learned from Yang Chengfu.

Could be a lot of reasons, I am guessing at least one of those reasons is money.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm short on time right now, more later, but here is a link to the Tung/Dong Family if you are interested
http://www.dongtaichi.com/

Hmmm... it's hard to pull much info out of that website. It doesn't at all make clear what might be different from Yang.

It does appear that Dong studied extensively under Yang Chengfu, and even handled many challenge fights on his behalf.

While there may be a formal separation and I am sure there are definite differences, underneath it all, is it really distinct enough to be "not the same"?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hmmm... it's hard to pull much info out of that website. It doesn't at all make clear what might be different from Yang.

It does appear that Dong studied extensively under Yang Chengfu, and even handled many challenge fights on his behalf.

While there may be a formal separation and I am sure there are definite differences, underneath it all, is it really distinct enough to be "not the same"?

I now have more time.

There is greater waist use in the Tai Chi of Master Tung and more apparent Fajing in the heal kicks.

Tung also created a fast form of his own and possibly finished the Yang Fast form for Yang Chengfu.

Frankly, to me the differences are negligible, but to the Yang family it is different. They also made a generational statement that amounts to, If I interpret it properly, they can teach Yang style to me and I can teach Yang style to you, but I cannot tell you that you can teach Yang style.

By this they can say Cheng Manching learned Yang taught Yang style, Tung Ying Cheih taught Yang style but anything after that is not Yang style.

I have my thoughts as to why, but I will not go into them here.

Also I have heard, and this is not substantiated yet, that the Dong family is more interested in the fighting side than the Yang family.

Tung Ying Chieh
Forgive the quality and choppiness, it is an old film.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8ydIbWD_sQ

Interestingly enough I recently saw a Gentleman do Yang style Tai chi that was a student of Yang Chengfu and his form looks different than the current Yang family, it is a VERY good form, the best I have ever seen, and he says the Yang family changed it since “The old master” (Yang Chengfu). But there has never been any mention of him by the current Yang family.

 

[Flying Crane]

Frankly, to me the differences are negligible, but to the Yang family it is different. They also made a generational statement that amounts to, If I interpret it properly, they can teach Yang style to me and I can teach Yang style to you, but I cannot tell you that you can teach Yang style.

By this they can say Cheng Manching learned Yang taught Yang style, Tung Ying Cheih taught Yang style but anything after that is not Yang style.

Interestingly enough I recently saw a Gentleman do Yang style Tai chi that was a student of Yang Chengfu and his form looks different than the current Yang family, it is a VERY good form, the best I have ever seen, and he says the Yang family changed it since “The old master” (Yang Chengfu). But there has never been any mention of him by the current Yang family.

Sounds like a lot of politics, frankly...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sounds like a lot of politics, frankly...

You got it

 

[Xue Sheng]

Once again something I am hesitant to post but here goes, once again into the void..

I thought of this last night and most of this is pure speculation. Let me repeat that; most of this is pure speculation.

I do believe to some extent that the at least part of the reason for the Yang family making it clear what is and what is not Yang style is general politics and money. But it also may be an attempt to regain control of the style.

I was thinking (always a dangerous thing) about the 6 recognized Tai Chi families. And ironically after finishing Chen style Silk reeling this came to me.

The Chen family pretty much knows who is and who is not teaching Chen and if they learned it from the Chen Family. I need to use a name here for example, when my wife was the translator for Chen Zhenglei I found that he knew my teacher’s teacher was (Tung Ying Chieh), he did not know my Sifu. He also knew Tung’s daughter. He knew that my first Sifu, who is now teaching Chen style and Sifu Chen, said that my first Sifu never learned it form the Chen family. He was absolutely certain of this; I also know it to be the truth as well.

The Wu family, now based in Canada also appears to have a fairly good grasp on who has learned from them. As I believe the Wu/Hao family does too. And although I do not know who is currently the inheritor of Sun style since Sun Jian Yun died I would not be surprised if they did not know who was taught by their family, face it not that many people are doing Sun Style. And then there is Zhaobao, also not that many people doing Zhaobao and it appears that if you show up and say “I learned Zhaobao” if your teacher is not 1 of a half dozen or less people the family in charge would say “No you didn’t”

Now the Yang family, first it is the most popular style of tai chi on the planet today. And there are a lot of people out there training and teaching what they call Yang that may know little or nothing about Yang Chengfu, and nothing about anyone else in the Yang family. Many are teaching Yang style (Beijing) 24 form or Yang 48 form, (which to me looks like it was based on Yang style pre-Yang Chengfu) and do not know traditional but they still claim to teach Yang style.

Yang Chengfu taught a lot of people, all over China, and I am not sure if the Yang family knows all he taught. Now go to his students, Cheng Manching was, I believe, the first to come to the US but he taught a lot of people in Taiwan, I believe, before he came to the US to teach many more. And I doubt the Yang family has any idea who TT Liang taught or CC Chen. Now Tung Ying Cheih taught a lot of people as well and his sons went to America, Hawaii first and taught a lot more people and it is highly unlikely they know all that Tung Ying Cheih taught little alone his sons.

Now within the Yang family, Yang Shouhao (Chengfu’s older brother) taught some people, no where near the number that Chengfu taught and then a generation back Yang Banhao (uncle) also taught. But both Banhao and Shouhao taught a different form of Yang than Chengfu and that form still exists, see Yang Jwing Ming’s Yang style. And the family is not sure who knows this style or if anyone doing it was taught by their family.

There is absolutely no way the Yang family can have any idea who did and who did not learn form them at this point. So what do you do?

Well Cheng Manching’s form is decidedly different so you say that is not Yang style and now you have a whole lot of people you no longer have to worry about. Then you see Tung’s students doing something similar but different enough and you can say the same there and get the same result and they rarely if ever talk about Banhao’s or Shouhao’s students. Shouhao by the way had at least 1 son I believe he taught.

It is possible that the Yang family is simply trying to regain control of their family style. They can teach you Yang style and a few others outside of the family can (I believe Gin Soo Chu is one of these – he was as a student of Zhendao older brother) but that is it. This way they can cut down the numbers and make sure that if you are doing Yang style it is in reality Traditional Yang style from Yang Chengfu, which is the current excepted family style.

They have also instituted a time requirement to study before you are considered a teacher, this is not a bad thing, but it is not traditional and it does not really mean you are better or worse than the next guy, it just means you have trained with the Yang family X amount of years. But it does insure that you have trained with them and it cuts down on the number of people that can truly say I teach Yang family tai Chi that I learned from the Yang Family.

Also I have been on their site (http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/) and they are listing people as teachers that learned form Tung Ying Chieh, so I am a bit confused here, but the

Example: Yang Lu-Chan > Yang Chang-Fu > Tung Ying Chieh > Master Mary Chow > Richard Jesaitis

Mary Chow by the way is my Teachers mother, but she did not study with Master Tung as long as my teacher.

I have not gone through all of the teachers listed but they seem to all come from Yang Chengfu not Shouhao or Banhao

I may be way off base with all of this, but this actually makes some sense to me.

 

[charyuop]

http://www.wuji.com/YangTaijiQuan.htm
Here you can read some of the students of Yang ChengFu. I put this site to show that in the site of the Yang family it is not shown all of the people teaching and that actually studied under Yang ChengFu lineage.
The man I bought all my Tai Chi videos from (Micheal Gilman) studied under Choy Kam-Man whose father, Choy Hok-Peng, studied directly under Chengfu. If you go to the Yang site none of them are mentioned (even tho masters Choy now are deceased).

I am sure it is not a matter of knowing, but more a matter of belonging to Yang family (not as related). If you go to them and say I studied Yang style under this master and ask for their certification then you will be one of the masters who DOES Yang style.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This is very true and from the site you posted
"It's impossible to list all of the students of Yang Chengfu since he traveled all over China to spread and teach Yang family Taiji Quan"

Styles of Tai Chi
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/styles.html

Yang style Lineage
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/yang.html

Tung Ying-chieh
http://www.answers.com/topic/tung-ying-chieh

I am sure it is not a matter of knowing, but more a matter of belonging to Yang family (not as related). If you go to them and say I studied Yang style under this master and ask for their certification then you will be one of the masters who DOES Yang style.

This is not uncommon, After 12 years of study with my Sifu I was looking to go study with Vincent Chu in Boston and although he did not say you need to start over he did say you need to start from correction and I agree with this. And his father Gin Soo Chu I believe is recognized by the Yang family as teaching Yang style, but I am not sure if Vincent is.

Anyone can show up and say I studied Yang Style, but you need to prove what you know and the Yang family today is not giving out certification without a certain number of years studying with them.

Example: I am returning to Chen, I use to do the old frame one and do silk reeling, but I am starting from the beginning with Chen Zhenglei’s 18 basic forms, and silk reeling before I return to old frame 1.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

I think you are correct in that the Yang Family are trying to reclaim Traditional Yang Family taijiquan. What Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo (+ Yang Jun) teach today is as close to what Yang Cheng-fu finally taught as you will be able to get. Fu Zhong Wen was Yang Cheng-fu's most senior student and Yang Zhen Ji (Cheng-fu's second son and still alive and teaching in China) has said of him "each movement, each posture is done according to the way my father taught the form in the past, with no alterations to the fixed postures". If you watch Fu Zhong Wen's video you will see the form as taught by the Yang's today. Cheng Man-ching and Wialliam C.C. Chen and T.T.Liang are entirely different kettles of fish. Cheng Man-ching so changed Cheng-fu's form that it can no longer be considered Yang style. Cheng Man-ching style, yes, by all means, but not Traditional Yang style. Tung changed the form less than Cheng man-ching and is much closer to Yang than Cheng's form. However he introduced fast forms which have never been part of the Traditional Yang curriculum. The modern 24, 48 and 88 forms cannot be called Yang style either, because they were formulated by a committee which did not include any of the Yang Family members and they violate some of Yang Cheng-fu's 10 essences. The Yangs (Shou Hou, Zhen Ji and Zhen Duo) had difficulties with the communist regime hence Shou Hou's fleeing to Hong Kong. It was during this period of course that the modern Wushu forms were formulated.(i.e.minus any martial intent as the communist regime were very wary of martial artists). There are so many forms masquerading as "Yang" style today, that I am not really surprised at the Yang family trying to reign things in. At the other extreme of the "Yang" teaching, you have the Taoist Tai Chi Society teaching Yangs Long Form and calling it Taoist Tai Chi claiming it was formulated by Moy Lin Shin. If it is any consolation to you, I think Tungs form is the closest of all the "Yang" forms to the original (and final) Cheng-fu form (apart that is from Zhen Ji and Zhen Duo's forms). The basis for true Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan is strict observance and adherence to Cheng-fu's 10 essences whilst playing the form. Many pay lip service to these essences whilst ignoring them playing the form.

Sorry for the long rant (learning a lot from you Xue Sheng).

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

I think you are correct in that the Yang Family are trying to reclaim Traditional Yang Family taijiquan. What Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo (+ Yang Jun) teach today is as close to what Yang Cheng-fu finally taught as you will be able to get. Fu Zhong Wen was Yang Cheng-fu's most senior student and Yang Zhen Ji (Cheng-fu's second son and still alive and teaching in China) has said of him "each movement, each posture is done according to the way my father taught the form in the past, with no alterations to the fixed postures". If you watch Fu Zhong Wen's video you will see the form as taught by the Yang's today. Cheng Man-ching and Wialliam C.C. Chen and T.T.Liang are entirely different kettles of fish. Cheng Man-ching so changed Cheng-fu's form that it can no longer be considered Yang style. Cheng Man-ching style, yes, by all means, but not Traditional Yang style. Tung changed the form less than Cheng man-ching and is much closer to Yang than Cheng's form. However he introduced fast forms which have never been part of the Traditional Yang curriculum. The modern 24, 48 and 88 forms cannot be called Yang style either, because they were formulated by a committee which did not include any of the Yang Family members and they violate some of Yang Cheng-fu's 10 essences. The Yangs (Shou Hou, Zhen Ji and Zhen Duo) had difficulties with the communist regime hence Shou Hou's fleeing to Hong Kong. It was during this period of course that the modern Wushu forms were formulated.(i.e.minus any martial intent as the communist regime were very wary of martial artists). There are so many forms masquerading as "Yang" style today, that I am not really surprised at the Yang family trying to reign things in. At the other extreme of the "Yang" teaching, you have the Taoist Tai Chi Society teaching Yangs Long Form and calling it Taoist Tai Chi claiming it was formulated by Moy Lin Shin. If it is any consolation to you, I think Tungs form is the closest of all the "Yang" forms to the original (and final) Cheng-fu form (apart that is from Zhen Ji and Zhen Duo's forms). The basis for true Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan is strict observance and adherence to Cheng-fu's 10 essences whilst playing the form. Many pay lip service to these essences whilst ignoring them playing the form.

Sorry for the long rant (learning a lot from you Xue Sheng).

Very best wishes

Nice rant.

once again agreed.

 

[wuchi]

Originally Posted by Eastwind

Cheng Man-ching and Wialliam C.C. Chen and T.T.Liang are entirely different kettles of fish. Cheng Man-ching so changed Cheng-fu's form that it can no longer be considered Yang style. Cheng Man-ching style, yes, by all means, but not Traditional Yang style. Tung changed the form less than Cheng man-ching and is much closer to Yang than Cheng's form. However he introduced fast forms which have never been part of the Traditional Yang curriculum.

If Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zen Dou have registered the name "Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan", then no other people apart from them teach the true "Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan". There is no argument that when others want to use that name they have to pay a royalty to use it. Instructors need to be certified by them, they need to attend workshops, pay affiliation fees etc...

If that is not the case the more correct thing to say in my opinion would be Cheng Man Ching and Tung Ying Chieh are not teaching "Yang Cheng Fu Style Tai Ji Quan". If just because someone is not conforming to Yang Chengfu's standard form you label them as not Yang style taiji - then how would you classify Yang Lu Chan, Yang Ban Hou, Yang Shao Hou and all the people that learnt from them - are they doing Yang's style taiji?

Originally Posted by Eastwind
The basis for true Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan is strict observance and adherence to Cheng-fu's 10 essences whilst playing the form.

I have a copy of "Yang Cheng Fu Shi Tai Ji Quan" written by Yang Zhen Ji (1st edition published 1993) in front of me and I have just read though the 10 essences.
If the basis for a true Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan is someone who strictly observes and adheres to Yang Chengfu's 10 essences. Please enlighten me as to which of the 10 essences Cheng Man-Ching didn't observe and adhere to so that his taiji is not Yang's taiji. Please note there is no offence intended!!

If you have an opportunity to read Cheng Man Ching's book, you would notice that he might not list it as Yang Chengfu did but those essences appeared all over the place and the truth of the matter was he clarified some of them and added some more essences. It is an essential and integral part of his teaching.

Coincidentally Yang Zhen Ji's book incorporated in appendix (2) Yang Chengfu's classic first published in 1934. Like it or not that classic was actually worded by Cheng Man-Ching.

 

[Xue Sheng]

If Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zen Dou have registered the name "Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan", then no other people apart from them teach the true "Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan". There is no argument that when others want to use that name they have to pay a royalty to use it. Instructors need to be certified by them, they need to attend workshops, pay affiliation fees etc...

If that is not the case the more correct thing to say in my opinion would be Cheng Man Ching and Tung Ying Chieh are not teaching "Yang Cheng Fu Style Tai Ji Quan". If just because someone is not conforming to Yang Chengfu's standard form you label them as not Yang style taiji - then how would you classify Yang Lu Chan, Yang Ban Hou, Yang Shao Hou and all the people that learnt from them - are they doing Yang's style taiji?



I have a copy of "Yang Cheng Fu Shi Tai Ji Quan" written by Yang Zhen Ji (1st edition published 1993) in front of me and I have just read though the 10 essences.
If the basis for a true Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan is someone who strictly observes and adheres to Yang Chengfu's 10 essences. Please enlighten me as to which of the 10 essences Cheng Man-Ching didn't observe and adhere to so that his taiji is not Yang's taiji. Please note there is no offence intended!!

If you have an opportunity to read Cheng Man Ching's book, you would notice that he might not list it as Yang Chengfu did but those essences appeared all over the place and the truth of the matter was he clarified some of them and added some more essences. It is an essential and integral part of his teaching.

Coincidentally Yang Zhen Ji's book incorporated in appendix (2) Yang Chengfu's classic first published in 1934. Like it or not that classic was actually worded by Cheng Man-Ching.

Actually Yang Zhendao made the statement that Cheng Manching is not Yang style and I believe he included Tung as well. This is not a statement from me or Eastwind. So it would be more correct to say in the opinion of the Yang Family.

- WARNING RANT AHEAD -

And you are dealing with a Chinese Martial Arts currently based in China, they simply do not do copy writes there. If in China and you pop up saying I teach Yang, Chen, Wu, etc. in China you are likely to get a visit form the offended family. That is if you are crazy enough to make the statement very public. I have talked to a Chen family member about this very issue and the statement basically was 'It’s America so who cares, there is nothing the Chen family can do here'. The statement that someone had made was they trained with the Chen family and the Chen family is aware of the statement and knows it to be false. And frankly the majorities of these family members that come here do not take Americans seriously and we generally give then good reason to feel this way. We train a couple of classes with them and run off and tell the world we trained with Master X and we can now teach there family form (Permission to do so be damned). Also many, not all, go to these seminars and have absolutely no idea what Tai Chi really is. They are just there to relax and if you mention martial arts they walk out (the student not the teacher). By the way I have taught Tai Chi and had that very thing happen.

- RANT OVER -

I have trained Yang, I think, could be Tung style, it depends on who you talk to. I have seen VERY traditional Yang style and I also briefly trained Cheng Manching style as it comes from CC Chen. To be honest I was rather impressed with Cheng Manching's version, if you will. I have also read Cheng Manching’s books, the Yang family translations from Yang Jwing Ming, and various other Yang style books as well.

As to the older members of the Yang line. At this time it does not appear that there is much talk about them from the Yang family, as I previously posted.

Yang Banhou's Form or Yang is different than the currently excepted Yang family style which is based on Yang Chengfu.

I have never understood the Yang family’s stance on this. The Chen family has old frame 1 and old frame 2 as well as new frame 1 and new frame 2 and various other forms. They have never ignored the older family member forms and it appears that the Yang family is and I just don’t understand that part of the issue at all.

 

[East Winds]

Wuchi,

Thanks for the reply. You raise some interesting and relevant points. First of all let me say what I have said many times on this board before. I have no problem with Cheng Man-ching form or Tung forms or any other form for that matter, so long as they do what they say on the tin!!! I believe that what the Yang family are teaching today (Yang Zhen Ji, Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Jun) is as close to what Yang Cheng-fu finally formulated as you are likely to get. Now, if I bought a Skoda car and stuck a Rolls Royce emblem on the front, would I be driving a Skoda or a Rolls Royce. I cannot really understand the desparation of Cheng Man-Ching practitioners to label their style Yang!! What's wrong with Cheng Man-ching style? I do have both books you mention and if you look at the photographs of Yang Cheng-fu and Cheng Man-Ching do you really believe they are doing the same form? I did not say that Cheng Man-ching form violated the essences. If you read my post you see that that referred to the modern Wushu forms. However, Cheng-fu clearly thought that 10 essences were sufficient to support his form without the addition of any more. I am not sure that the current Yang Family do ignore the ancestors. They are certainly all listed on their family tree. I think they believe that these earlier forms were lost (despite the exagerated claims of some pratitioners) and that they now follow that style formulated finally by Yang Cheng-fu, their father.

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am not sure that the current Yang Family do ignore the ancestors. They are certainly all listed on their family tree. I think they believe that these earlier forms were lost (despite the exagerated claims of some pratitioners) and that they now follow that style formulated finally by Yang Cheng-fu, their father.

Very best wishes

Yes they put them in the tree, the form was not lost. Yang Shouhao's son listed and he learned from his father. Also he very likely had children who are certainly not listed in the tree. The same goes for another brother whose name escapes me for the moment

Also Yang Shouhao, Chengfu's older brother, had several students and there is documentation to prove this. However he was a rather hard teacher and it is also alleged he killed at least one of his students. Chengfu was a kinder gentler teacher by far and had many more students than Shouhao

The following I only read from one source so it is again unsubstantiated.
When Shouhao died the Yang family allegedly told his few students that if they wanted to be considered Yang style practitioners they had to now train with Chengfu. Most had trained longer than Chengfu and refused. They were then told no students they teach will be considered Yang Style practitioners. Also there are the students of Yang Banhao (Chengfu's Uncle); although I know little about them other than one was Yang Shouhao. Yang Chengfu learned from his father (Yang Jianhou)

Regardless of what happened I do not believe the form is lost, it is rare. And I also believe the Yang family knows it still exists. However they have put their name behind the Tai Chi of Chengfu. I have no problem with this; I just do not understand why they did not keep the older form as well.

Unless it has to do with the current heads do not know it. My example of Chen, all current Chen family style holders know all forms.