Not Yang Style !?!?

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

Yes, of course, as I have said many times on this board, I have no problem with Cheng Man-ching style. I have seen it as a fighting form and very effective it is too!! And yes, like you, I still do 24 step occassionaly but in the style of Traditonal Yang, not the flailing arms and legs and exagerated postures you see so often in that form!!!

Very best wishes

Yup that is it exactly and it is amazing how all of a sudden, when you make it more traditional, how all the applications just seem to show up that made no sense before.

Just as a brief side to this in reference to Beijing 24 form looking very traditional these days. I use to do a bit of Wu style, many years ago, and I liked it. However I had to stop because every single Tai Chi form I did began to look like Wu. I was just starting Chen and I had been learning Yang and every single form had a look of Wu to it, especially wave hands of (and that is incredibly noticeable to the untrained eye when your talking Chen). I even had moments when I would be doing Yang style and the next thing I know I was doing the Wu form I had learned. So Wu had to stop and I have not trained any Wu since. I have never had that problem between Chen and Yang but Wu just seems to bleed into everything for me.

OK that had NOTHING to do with the topic, but I had to throw that out there.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

I know what you mean. I started with "Yang" style, but when I discovered that the teaching was worse than useless, I went to a renowned Wu teacher. He wanted to teach me the "square" form first, but I wanted to keep making it round, like Yang!!! So I found a Chen teacher and had absolutely no problem adapting to the teaching. When I changed back to Traditional Yang with my current teacher, again I had no problem adapting. The main lesson I learned was that beginners do not really know the difference between good and bad Taiji. That is why there are so many "bad" forms out there.

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

East Wind

Your signature made me think of a question.

In training traditional Yang is there specific breathe training done?

I am curious because I remember being taught how to breath in (forgive the reference) 24 form. But in the version from Tung Ying Cheih, that I do, it is taught to learn to relax in the forms and postures and the breathing will naturally follow. And it has been my experience that this works at least for me.

Also I may have told you this before, but my sifu was once asked by one of his students “What should we do about breathing” And he responded with “I will tell you what my Sifu told me, Yes you should” so apparently Sifu Tung said that as well.

XS

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

Interesting topic and probably worth a whole thread on its own. As far as I am aware, there is no special breathing technique taught by the Yang family. Normally it is assumed that you should breath in on a Yin action and out on a Yang action, but this does not follow for instance in the Pung and Lu of Ward Off and Roll Back in Grasp the Birds Tail. Pung of course is a Yang action, but of course Roll Back is also a Yang action, but as you know Yang cannot follow Yang!!!!! Yang Zhen Ji in his book says that it is possible to strike while breathing in or out!! I let the breathing happen on its own, but do try to breath down into the Dantien. So it would seem that the comment by the master in my bootstrap and the comment by Tung Yin Cheih is good advice

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

Interesting topic and probably worth a whole thread on its own. As far as I am aware, there is no special breathing technique taught by the Yang family. Normally it is assumed that you should breath in on a Yin action and out on a Yang action, but this does not follow for instance in the Pung and Lu of Ward Off and Roll Back in Grasp the Birds Tail. Pung of course is a Yang action, but of course Roll Back is also a Yang action, but as you know Yang cannot follow Yang!!!!! Yang Zhen Ji in his book says that it is possible to strike while breathing in or out!! I let the breathing happen on its own, but do try to breath down into the Dantien. So it would seem that the comment by the master in my bootstrap and the comment by Tung Yin Cheih is good advice

Very best wishes

Thank You

And if you don't make it a topic, I just might. It would be interesting to see if there are differences between various Tai Chi styles as it applies to breathing.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

Yes, breathing brings a whole new set of "challenges" into taijiquan. I'll let you start the new thread and would be very happy to contribute to it.

Very best wishes.

P.S. just started Mandarin classes and now understand your signature!!

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'll let you start the new thread and would be very happy to contribute to it.

OH SURE!!! Make me do the work

I will have to think about how to word this one, but I will start a post on it

P.S. just started Mandarin classes and now understand your signature!!

Mandarin COOL

My signatures are metaphors from North China. They generally mean more than the direct translation gives you, and I hear them all the time, so it is best I know what is being said.

If you like I can PM you the entire meaning, but some are fairly easy to grasps from the translation. In the North they are BIG on metaphors.

I need to improve my mandarin immensely before my wife beats me. I need to be able to talk to my in-laws without her as a translator and we want our youngest daughter to be bilingual (she already understands more than dad) so I need to become, I have been told, fluent in Mandarin.

zai jian

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

Manythanks. I would be interersted in a PM on the entire meaning. I teach taijiquan at the University of St. Andrews here in Scotland, and that is where I am also learning Mandarin. I intend to be able to converse with my Master when he comes over to the the UK next year!!!

Very best wishes

P.S. You are so good at starting threads it seemed logical to leave it to you:erg:

 

[grappling_mandala]

In my opinion the Dong family form is almost identical to the Yang style. Much closer then any of the CMC stuff or PRC crapola.

 

[East Winds]

I agree entirely. Tung's style is certainly much closer to Traditional Yang. The main differences are the subtle bend at the waist, occassional cross stepping and closing of the heels in Cloud Hands. I also said in an earlier post that I thought that Fa Jing was more overt whilst watching Tung Ying Cheih than watching the present day Yangs.

Very best wishes

 

[marlon]

Is there is a philosophic difference btwn Tung and Yang Jun's teachings?

Respectfully
Marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

Is there is a philosophic difference btwn Tung and Yang Jun's teachings?

Respectfully
Marlon

I don't think so, but I train with one of Tung's students and I have never trained with Yang Jun or Zhendou so I cannot be sure. I have yet to read Yang Chengfu's book and I have read Tungs a few times. Once I do read Yang Chengfu's book I will have a better Idea. I believe they are pretty much along the lines of Chengfu.

Possibly East Winds could better answer your question.

Also since I started this post I do believe that I found out that the Yang family does recognize the Yang style coming from the Tung/Dong family as Yang style (the long form specifically and possibly one Dao form but I am not sure about the rest). However the Tung/Dong family does also have there own style as well that is a bit different in one of the the Jain forms and a Dao form.

Also it is likely that Yang Jun does not recognize the Yang fast form from Tung in collaboration with Chengfu as Yang style, although it is very much Yang style by appearance there is also a Tung Fast form that is very different. However as far as I know the Yang families stance is there is no Yang fast form.

 

[East Winds]

marlon,

I too don't know enough about Tung style to comment, but I would think it highly unlikely that there would be any philosphical differences between the two. Most of the philosophy of Taiji is based in the "Classics" and although each family has their own version in addition to the mainstream classics they are all pretty much in agreement. A good source book is "T'ai Chi's Ancestors, the Making of an Internal Art" by Douglas Wile : Sweet Chi Press ISBN 0-912059-04-4

Very best wishes

 

[marlon]

Thank you EW

marlon

 

[Ronnin]

OK, I am shocked and the next guy…. Ok probably more so… the next guy probably couldn’t care less…. but I have come to the conclusion that after 12 years of studying Yang style that I was not studying Yang style, or at least not according to the Yang family and Tung/Dong family

But wait it gets more confusing.

My teacher did call it Yang Style and he not wrong, from his perspective. His teacher was Tung Ying Cheih and as far as I know master Tung taught Yang style and never said anything to the contrary.

But now the Yang family has declared that those taught via Tung Ying Cheih are not learning Yang style but Tung style. (This by the way is the same thing as Dong Style)

And the Tung/Dong family teaches its family form called… you guessed it… Dong style.

Now after much video viewing of Old Yang style guys and Yang Jun and then comparing them to what I do and what I saw Tung Ying Chieh do in an old film. I am doing Dong Style.

Yang and Dong are very similar but have some obvious differences. Could be because prior to studying with Yang Chengfu, Tung Ying Chieh studied Wu style, I believe Wu/Hao style to be honest. Also there was some speculation. Although not proven as far as I am concerned that Master Tung studied Yang style with Yang Shaohou until Shaohou's death and then studied with Yang Chengfu.

So now I have to go and buy Tung Ying Cheih’s book to see what the heck I was suppose to be doing, since it is not Yang style and I have based everything on the fact I did Yang style…which I apparently do not.

This does not change the fact I am returning to Chen style, but it does mean…. Well to be honest I am not sure what it means.

So why are you returning to Chen style?

 

[Xue Sheng]

So why are you returning to Chen style?

This is an old post and I have since found that what I do is Yang style and Dong/Tung style and this is fairly typical if yout tai chi comes from the Tung/Dong lineage

As for why returing to Chen, I did and then went back to Yang style with my Sifu.

But my reasons for returing to Chen were simple. I liked it better and it fit me better. However due to the lack of teachers in my area I went with Yang way back when. And I decided that after many years in Yang I would continue with it. But I still like Chen better and I likely always will.