"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[Danny T]

I think perhaps the problem is nobody has actually defined "outside". What you think of as the outside game may not be the same as others are thinking of. What I'd call the outside game for NGA is not the same things someone from TKD would think of as "outside".

And it's worth pointing out that the OP actually stated that this is more of a thought experiment. He used someone's quote and said, "If we assume this is true..." Thus, it doesn't matter if any of us think there's a weakness in the outside game for any type of WC or not, if we are following the original topic.

I refer 'outside' or 'inside' in relation to the opponent's guard. Not as a distance from the opponent.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I refer 'outside' or 'inside' in relation to the opponent's guard. Not as a distance from the opponent.

Interesting. I didn't think of that in reference to this thread. I use those terms that way in my normal training, too. My shorthand for distances is wrist-distance, elbow-distance, and kissing-distance.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I left out the "kissing range" I teach with my students,

This is the kissing range.

IMO, when your opponent uses double hooks (or double hay-makers) on you, it's very difficult for you to use straight punches such as jab and cross on him. Your straight punch will be knocked side way and off your striking path. What's the solution here?

Does anybody has any clip to show how to use "straight punches" to deal with "circular punch"?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I refer 'outside' or 'inside' in relation to the opponent's guard. Not as a distance from the opponent.

What if your opponent just stands there with his hands drop next to his knee without any "guard"?

Are you talking about "inside (front door) - between your opponent's arms)" and "outside (side door) - outside of his both arms"?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Outside game" to me could mean being outside the range your particular style favors.

This is a better definition. IMO, as long as you are trying to hit your opponent with both hands, you are not playing the "outside game".

"Sweet spot" to me means "effective range".

 

[Danny T]

What if your opponent just stands there with his hands drop next to his knee without any "guard"?

Are you talking about "inside (front door) - between your opponent's arms)" and "outside (side door) - outside of his both arms"?

Then the guard is down, not up, or lowered. Still outside or inside.

 

[Hazardi172]

That's what many styles do to reduce the delay introduced by the elasticity of the joints and muscles. It cannot be entirely overcome, because the elastic length of those tissues depends upon the force (strain) placed upon them. Pre-loading can only place partial strain on them. Full strain can only be introduced when the full force is introduced when actually initiating the movement

I will take your word for it - I have never seen any other style punch the way as WSL VT. I wouldn't be so sure about the punch mechanism and joint loading in WSL VT, suggest you try before reaching a conclusion

Full loading is initiated before the feet move, which is aided by the way ground is contacted, path of force, and weight movement.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is the kissing range.

Yes. Yes it is.

IMO, when your opponent uses double hooks (or double hay-makers) on you, it's very difficult for you to use straight punches such as jab and cross on him. Your straight punch will be knocked side way and off your striking path. What's the solution here?

Does anybody has any clip to show how to use "straight punches" to deal with "circular punch"?

A haymaker won't necessarily intersect a straight punch. The haymaker starts wider, and doesn't come in until it's near the shoulder, so a straight punch can come inside it all the way. In theory, the straight punch is also faster, so if both are released at the same time, the round attack may not even connect. It's even less of an intersection if both are right hands (so opposite sides from each other).

An uppercut could be problematic for a straight punch. A hook (by my definition) is a shorter version of the haymaker. It may, in fact, be problematic for the same-side straight (so, right hook vs. left cross, for instance), depending upon timing. If the straight enters first, it may deflect the round, just as the round may deflect the straight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I will take your word for it - I have never seen any other style punch the way as WSL VT. I wouldn't be so sure about the punch mechanism and joint loading in WSL VT, suggest you try before reaching a conclusion

Full loading is initiated before the feet move, which is aided by the way ground is contacted, path of force, and weight movement.

I'm not addressing the WSL VT punch - I'm addressing the mechanics of the human body. There are realities we have to acknowledge to get the most out of the machine we're working with. Without introducing excessive tension (including opposing tension, which kills speed and power), you can't fully load a static joint. The loading has to happen in a dynamic situation, so though the limb may not be moving, the muscles and other tissues are moving to load the joint, until it reaches a level of tension that exceeds what's holding it back, then it fires. But that firing is not like a rubber band - you still have to keep activating the muscles to continue to accelerate the limb, which can draw more on the elasticity of the joint tissues.

 

[Hazardi172]

I'm not addressing the WSL VT punch - I'm addressing the mechanics of the human body. There are realities we have to acknowledge to get the most out of the machine we're working with. Without introducing excessive tension (including opposing tension, which kills speed and power), you can't fully load a static joint. The loading has to happen in a dynamic situation, so though the limb may not be moving, the muscles and other tissues are moving to load the joint, until it reaches a level of tension that exceeds what's holding it back, then it fires. But that firing is not like a rubber band - you still have to keep activating the muscles to continue to accelerate the limb, which can draw more on the elasticity of the joint tissues.

Before feet move =/= a static joint

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A haymaker won't necessarily intersect a straight punch. The haymaker starts wider, and doesn't come in until it's near the shoulder, ...

You can make your hay-maker into a very small circle.

In the following spear circle clip, you will find that in order for your straight line attack spear (like a jab) to be able to stab at your opponent's chest, your spear has to pass his

- spear head,
- front part of the spear,
- middle part of the spear, and the
- back part of the spear.

In other words, when your opponent uses hay-maker to block your jab, he is not using just 1 contact point. he is using his entire arm instead.

In stead of calling it hay-maker, I prefer to call it "spear strategy".

 

[drop bear]

I think perhaps the problem is nobody has actually defined "outside". What you think of as the outside game may not be the same as others are thinking of. What I'd call the outside game for NGA is not the same things someone from TKD would think of as "outside".

And it's worth pointing out that the OP actually stated that this is more of a thought experiment. He used someone's quote and said, "If we assume this is true..." Thus, it doesn't matter if any of us think there's a weakness in the outside game for any type of WC or not, if we are following the original topic.

And the outside game would not really be trying to get inside. That would still be inside game.

It would be staying outside.

 

[drop bear]

Yes. Yes it is.


A haymaker won't necessarily intersect a straight punch. The haymaker starts wider, and doesn't come in until it's near the shoulder, so a straight punch can come inside it all the way. In theory, the straight punch is also faster, so if both are released at the same time, the round attack may not even connect. It's even less of an intersection if both are right hands (so opposite sides from each other).

An uppercut could be problematic for a straight punch. A hook (by my definition) is a shorter version of the haymaker. It may, in fact, be problematic for the same-side straight (so, right hook vs. left cross, for instance), depending upon timing. If the straight enters first, it may deflect the round, just as the round may deflect the straight.

Provided nobody is moving. If you cut angles then you can take advantage of the gaps straight lines posses.

 

[Juany118]

I'm not addressing the WSL VT punch - I'm addressing the mechanics of the human body. There are realities we have to acknowledge to get the most out of the machine we're working with. Without introducing excessive tension (including opposing tension, which kills speed and power), you can't fully load a static joint. The loading has to happen in a dynamic situation, so though the limb may not be moving, the muscles and other tissues are moving to load the joint, until it reaches a level of tension that exceeds what's holding it back, then it fires. But that firing is not like a rubber band - you still have to keep activating the muscles to continue to accelerate the limb, which can draw more on the elasticity of the joint tissues.

And this was largely my point, with the photos of WSL. How often in that other thread, when the WSL people we saying "you never punch above your head" did they also speak of the "triangle" the arm becomes when you punch. The photos I posted we simply to illustrate that (regardless of reason) those triangles are all over the form. These triangles are there to reduce the elasticity (in theory.) Both the bong and tan are based on forwarding energy. You don't swing them in front of you like a block, you slide them in front of you, like spreading peanut butter. The angle becomes important because the more support structures of the human body you bring into play the more firm (less elastic) the structure becomes.

So if your arm is in one position you use primarily muscle, another position primarily bone and tendon, a third position you recruit more generally from all three. Which is the stronger structure? To achieve that stronger structure you must be in the correct place in space in relation to the target.

You can see the same principle when a weight lifter does aclean and jerk. It is about explosive power BUT it is also about getting everything to line up right from the feet, through the legs, all the way up. The bones and tendons aren't lifting as they provide no strength on their own but without making sure all of them line up in a "sweet spot" arrangement the muscles can't support the weight either. The weight either doesn't rise high enough, or the lifter over balanced forward and the weight never hits the apex, or over balances backward after hitting the apex. How does it hit the apex and stay? Because he/she aligned the structures of the body in unison to minimize elasticity.

 

[drop bear]

Then the guard is down, not up, or lowered. Still outside or inside.

That is fine but you are not exactly defeating the method by doing that as you are just going to ge punched in the face.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Before feet move =/= a static joint

I'm not sure which part of the body you're referring to here. There are at least 6 joints, plus the entire spine, between the base of the foot and the fist. Most have capsules of some sort that cannot be compressed to full-load by simple tension. There are some points where you can reduce the number of elastic points by "stacking bones" (putting the bones in perfect alignment), and that will help so long as you aren't going to bend that joint at any point during the movement (at which point you reintroduce the problem of elasticity). This isn't possible with hips, shoulders, elbows (during a punching motion). And it still doesn't overcome the elastic movement of all the mass that you're moving when you put bodyweight behind a punch.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You can make your hay-maker into a very small circle.

In the following spear circle clip, you will find that in order for your straight line attack spear (like a jab) to be able to stab at your opponent's chest, your spear has to pass his

- spear head,
- front part of the spear,
- middle part of the spear, and the
- back part of the spear.

In other words, when your opponent uses hay-maker to block your jab, he is not using just 1 contact point. he is using his entire arm instead.

In stead of calling it hay-maker, I prefer to call it "spear strategy".

That's a different approach. The spear is crossing the centerline during the movement (base is on his right, tip crosses to the left), which allows it to effectively occupy that space. A forehand punch won't cover your own centerline, so maybe the "haymaker" referenced isn't the American haymaker (big forehand round punch)?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's a different approach. The spear is crossing the centerline during the movement (base is on his right, tip crosses to the left), which allows it to effectively occupy that space. A forehand punch won't cover your own centerline, so maybe the "haymaker" referenced isn't the American haymaker (big forehand round punch)?

Your

- right shoulder is on the right side of your chest.
- left shoulder is on the left side of your chest.

When you move either arm, your arm will cross your center line. In other words, you draw 2 small circles. Any straight line attack will have to go through these 2 circles.

The difference between using a spear to block another spear vs. a Karate hard block, The 1st is a "line intersect another line with very small angle". The 2nd is usually a 90 degree intersection with a vertical line contact a horizontal line.

 

[KPM]

I have never seen any other style punch the way as WSL VT. I wouldn't be so sure about the punch mechanism and joint loading in WSL VT, suggest you try before reaching a conclusion

t.

Why don't you post a video illustrating this WSLVT punch that you keep talking about? That would really help everyone see what you mean.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Your

- right shoulder is on the right side of your chest.
- left shoulder is on the left side of your chest.

When you move either arm, your arm will cross your center line. In other words, you draw 2 small circles. Any straight line attack will have to go through these 2 circles.

The difference between using a spear to block another spear vs. a Karate hard block, The 1st is a "line intersect another line with very small angle". The 2nd is usually a 90 degree intersection with a vertical line contact a horizontal line.

Ah. Definitely not the same punch I was picturing. Do you happen to know of a video that's a good example of that as a punch?