No Outside Game??? Huh???

wingchun100

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I was watching an interview with Dan Inosanto where he said without wing chun, there would have been no JKD. So he sings praises of it at first, but then switches gears and says wing chun has no "outside game." What is he talking about??? I don't know how much of wing chun he has even seen (given that Bruce Lee himself never even finished the system), but he isn't talking about the style as *I* know it. How can a guy who has been in martial arts for this long not realize some basic facts? I'm talking about simple truths like:

*a kicker will train to keep his opponent at kicking range
*a boxer would train to keep someone at punching range
*a grappler will train to get close enough to grapple

Therefore, wouldn't it be a given that wing chun practitioners train to close the gap and enter the trapping range?

I don't know. To me that came off as an epic fail on Inosanto's part. Just my opinion.
 

geezer

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I dunno. Consider where Danny is coming from. He's very eclectic. And if you look his background in FMA for example, there's basically three ranges: Largo, Medio, and Corto. Many great FMA systems specialize in one range over the others. That's not a criticism, just a statement of fact.

I believe the same is true for WC. We are best at close range striking. Sure we have kicks but they are generally short range as far as kicks go. Yes, we also have some good clinching, grapples and throws, ...even a bit of ground work these days. But when compared to the sophistication of our close-range striking, it's clear that that other stuff is not our specialty. My outside game is totally designed to get inside ...not to hang around and sharp-shoot from far away. So to say that we don't have have an "outside" or "largo" game seems fair enough to me.

Perhaps your WC is different?
 
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wingchun100

wingchun100

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I dunno. Consider where Danny is coming from. He's very eclectic. And if you look his background in FMA for example, there's basically three ranges: Largo, Medio, and Corto. Many great FMA systems specialize in one range over the others. That's not a criticism, just a statement of fact.

I believe the same is true for WC. We are best at close range striking. Sure we have kicks but they are generally short range as far as kicks go. Yes, we also have some good clinching, grapples and throws, ...even a bit of ground work these days. But when compared to the sophistication of our close-range striking, it's clear that that other stuff is not our specialty. My outside game is totally designed to get inside ...not to hang around and sharp-shoot from far away. So to say that we don't have have an "outside" or "largo" game seems fair enough to me.

Perhaps your WC is different?

It's not different, but I consider the act of bridging the gap as part of outside game...because at one point you aren't near your opponent, and the next you are. Maybe that is just the way I interpret things.
 

geezer

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It's not different, but I consider the act of bridging the gap as part of outside game...because at one point you aren't near your opponent, and the next you are. Maybe that is just the way I interpret things.

I didn't see the interview of course, but I suspect Danny was referencing long range fighting. Or perhaps you are right. The JKD guys have always had a problem with what they perceive as WC's lack of long range mobility ever since Bruce Lee fought Jack Man Wong. If that's the case, I'd agree with you and say that they have a misperception.

Now here's my perception of the WC/VT/WT outside or long range game:

http://www.wingtsunmessina.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Leung-Ting-Long-pole-technique.jpg
 
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wingchun100

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I didn't see the interview of course, but I suspect Danny was referencing long range fighting. Or perhaps you are right. The JKD guys have always had a problem with what they perceive as WC's lack of long range mobility ever since Bruce Lee fought Jack Man Wong. If that's the case, I'd agree with you and say that they have a misperception.

Now here's my perception of the WC/VT/WT outside or long range game:

http://www.wingtsunmessina.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Leung-Ting-Long-pole-technique.jpg

Great picture!

And yes, if Dan meant we don't have much in the way of long range attacks, I would agree. Aside from the pole form it is all close-range. However, we do train to get into our range. So it's not like fighting a tae kwon do practitioner would have us completely stymied.
 

ST1Doppelganger

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Dan is kind of correct WC outside game is lacking and what they do have is used to bridge the gap so they can get inside where they prefer to be and are effective at what they do.
 
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wingchun100

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Dan is kind of correct WC outside game is lacking and what they do have is used to bridge the gap so they can get inside where they prefer to be and are effective at what they do.

Well I certainly agree with the lack of long range attacks, but it's not like we don't learn how to bridge the gap to make up for that.
 

drop bear

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Well I certainly agree with the lack of long range attacks, but it's not like we don't learn how to bridge the gap to make up for that.

An outside game is someone who works to nullify the gap bridging to keep the fight at a distance.

You really should have both.
 

mook jong man

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I would say that Dan Inosanto has never witnessed my late Sifu Jim Fung bridge a gap of over three metres with a charging knee and stop with his fist an inch from someones face like I have.
It is no exaggeration when I say that he covered that distance with such explosiveness and speed that it looked like he had been teleported.

The footwork to bridge large gaps is mostly contained in the butterfly knife form .
Think about , if you are using the butterfly knives against a weapon with superior striking range such as the long pole , then you have to be able deflect the pole and then move in damn quickly and strike the pole wielder.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I'm pretty certain Guru Dan was talking about actually fighting at long range, not about having a plan to close the gap. He knows plenty of high-level Wing Chun practitioners.
 

mook jong man

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An outside game is someone who works to nullify the gap bridging to keep the fight at a distance.

You really should have both.

Wing Chun is a specialist system why do we have to have both ? We specialise at close range where most real world violence tends to occur.

It's a bit like having a sniper rifle and expecting it also to be useful for close quarters work in going room to room clearing out houses.

No one says that boxers should be able to do a 540 degree tornado kick do they?
 

Blindside

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I'm pretty certain Guru Dan was talking about actually fighting at long range, not about having a plan to close the gap. He knows plenty of high-level Wing Chun practitioners.

If your "outside game" is to close the gap to an close range game, it isn't an "outside game." In basketball the "outside game" usually refers to the long distance shooting capaiblity of a player or team. You can't say Team X has a really good "outside game" because their guys are good at splitting the defenders and penetrating the middle of the court.
 

Cephalopod

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Dan is kind of correct WC outside game is lacking and what they do have is used to bridge the gap so they can get inside where they prefer to be and are effective at what they do.

Does Dan actually view this as a critical weakness or is it just an observation?

It is true that if, for some reason, I was up against an opponent that I really needed to stay away from, say a 6'9" rabid zombie covered with burning napalm, I would feel disadvantaged because I have not trained my drop kicks to fluency.

Against most other opponents I am quite comfortable moving into a closer range where my skills are more trained.
 

geezer

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Damn, I'm really starting to stress about the burning zombie.
WTF would I do?

Hey Ceph, don't sweat the Zs.

Anybody knows that setting a zombie on fire is only effective at truly long range, as for example by throwing molotov cocktails or burning oil from a high place. At hand to hand range its suicide. By the time they burn up they are all over you. If you don't burn to death first, they'll still eat your brains, or at least infect you with bites.

The best TCMA weapon for fighting zombies is a cutting pole-arm like a kwan-dao.
http://www.shopbushido.com/media/ca...b8d27136e95/K/w/Kwan_Dao_Dragon_Head_91in.jpg
If you can't behead them, you can at least cut off a leg so that they can't chase you easily.

Bart Cham Dao put you way too close and at risk for bites. If that's the best you've got, at least wear motorcycle leathers.

The long pole can work if there aren't too many of 'em and you have really great power generation ...sufficient to crush their skulls, otherwise a simple axe-handle of good ol' American Hickory will serve you better.

Now, seriously, I too need to return to the Wingchunosphere.
 

mook jong man

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Nice, but splattering napalm would get in my eyes.


There is no answer.


Crap.


Wait, what was this thread about?

You'd probably need Darryl Dixon.

tumblr_mjy4gfpuzk1s8oimso1_400.gif
 

drop bear

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Wing Chun is a specialist system why do we have to have both ? We specialise at close range where most real world violence tends to occur.

It's a bit like having a sniper rifle and expecting it also to be useful for close quarters work in going room to room clearing out houses.

No one says that boxers should be able to do a 540 degree tornado kick do they?


People who do hybrid versions of boxing probably do. It tends to be a thing.
 

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