No Native Korean Internal Styles

[Steel Tiger]

I was recently doing a bit of reading on the history of Korean martial arts and came across something interesting. In the Muyedobotongji there are explicit statements as to internal styles being better fighting styles than external ones, however, there are have been no native Korean internal styles.

Why do you think this is?

Given the proximity to China and the evident use of Chinese styles in korean you would think that at least one would have arisen. Was the Neo-Confucian influence to blame? Was it the obvious Korean liking for kicking methods?

Any thoughts on this?

 

[exile]

I was recently doing a bit of reading on the history of Korean martial arts and came across something interesting. In the Muyedobotongji there are explicit statements as to internal styles being better fighting styles than external ones, however, there are have been no native Korean internal styles.

Why do you think this is?

Given the proximity to China and the evident use of Chinese styles in korean you would think that at least one would have arisen. Was the Neo-Confucian influence to blame? Was it the obvious Korean liking for kicking methods?

Any thoughts on this?

Well, all I can think of is that the CMA styles closest to Korea may well have been hyper-external themselves. Adrogué has identified the unarmed combat style in the one chapter devoted to it in the MDTJ as Long Fist ch'uan fa, as hard an external style as you could wish for (and notice that it favors high, full extension complex kicks in its technique set—this came up in another discussion). Since the MDTJ is a translation and compilation of much older Chinese military manuals, it wouldn't be surprising for references to internal styles to show up in there, but the actual CMA the Koreans 'got' would probably have been that same kind of somewhat flashy external style, given what was being practiced in the northern, as vs. the southern part of China.

 

[Ninjamom]

I have been trying (for several years) to find history on the Korean art of Gicheon (Gicheon Mun, lit. 'gateway to heavenly energy'), a very obscure, nearly cult-like internal martial art native to Korea. I have traced its lineage back to 1950, and although it claims a much longer legacy, this is the earliest that I have been able to verify. It appears to be related to northern mantis KF styles, and includes a of of qi gong.

Turtle Press offers a video about it, and short segments depicting the art may be seen in the DVD previews. More information about the art may be found at this website (the main website, unfortunately, has been hijacked).

 

[Steel Tiger]

I had a look at the GiCheon site, very interesting. There are definitely northern CMA influences in the stances. I also read through the "What is GiCheon?" section and it started to smell a bit, well, fishy. There are claims to a 15000 year tradition, though the art did not become known to the Korean public until the 1970s.

It also lays claim to a "unique traditional Korean Philosophy...". But it sounds a lot like Yin/Yang theory and Daoism to me.

I was more than a little disturbed by the secret of GiCheon, YeokGeun. Apparently in each of the stances you are supposed to lock the joints as hard as you can with the surrounding muscles. It doesn't sound like an internal method to me, its more like the methods used for developing Iron Palm and other similar techniques.

So I cannot say if it is a truly internal art or not. I am leaning toward not, based on what I have seen on the website. It has a lot of the hallmarks of the externals arts in China that have a qigong components, like Northern Praying Mantis, for instance. But then again, it says it is so maybe it is.

 

[D Dempsey]

I'm kind of surprise that there is even a mention of internal or external martial arts in the Muyedobotongji. The whole concept of internal/external martial arts came about in the 1920's by Sun Lutang, according to whom there are only three internal martial arts are Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji. So I wouldn't be concerned at all as it's ultimately irrelevant.

 

[exile]

I'm kind of surprise that there is even a mention of internal or external martial arts in the Muyedobotongji. The whole concept of internal/external martial arts came about in the 1920's by Sun Lutang, according to whom there are only three internal martial arts are Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji. So I wouldn't be concerned at all as it's ultimately irrelevant.

Do they actually use the terms internal/external in the MDTJ, ST?

 

[Steel Tiger]

Do they actually use the terms internal/external in the MDTJ, ST?

Well I cannot be sure of the exact wording, I only encountered the reference second hand, and I haven't been able to get a hold of the actual text as yet. But I expect it was a translation of neijia and wujia.

However, the first reference to the neijia, or internal arts, in China is from 1669 from an epitaph for Wang Zhengnan created by Huang Zongxi. The first text on a neijia was written in 1676 by Huang's son, a student of Wang Zhengnan, Huang Baijia. It was called Neijia Quanfa. So the material was available at the time of the creation of the MDTJ.

Given the blended nature of the MDTJ I would not be surprised if elements of that book along with those from other Chinese and Japanese texts found their way into the super text.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm kind of surprise that there is even a mention of internal or external martial arts in the Muyedobotongji. The whole concept of internal/external martial arts came about in the 1920's by Sun Lutang, according to whom there are only three internal martial arts are Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji. So I wouldn't be concerned at all as it's ultimately irrelevant.

Actually there is a mention of the school of Neijia in Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan which was written in 1669, this is also the first time the name Zhang Sanfeng pops up as well...

EDIT
Which I see if I read further Steel Tiger already posted, sorry about that

Bit of redemption, maybe this will help http://www.nardis.com/~twchan/henning.html

 

[exile]

Well I cannot be sure of the exact wording, I only encountered the reference second hand, and I haven't been able to get a hold of the actual text as yet. But I expect it was a translation of neijia and wujia.

However, the first reference to the neijia, or internal arts, in China is from 1669 from an epitaph for Wang Zhengnan created by Huang Zongxi. The first text on a neijia was written in 1676 by Huang's son, a student of Wang Zhengnan, Huang Baijia. It was called Neijia Quanfa. So the material was available at the time of the creation of the MDTJ.

Given the blended nature of the MDTJ I would not be surprised if elements of that book along with those from other Chinese and Japanese terxts found their way into the super text.

That would be absolutely typical, I think.

I'll take a look through my copy of the MDTJ and see if I can find the specific reference.

 

[D Dempsey]

However, the first reference to the neijia, or internal arts, in China is from 1669 from an epitaph for Wang Zhengnan created by Huang Zongxi. The first text on a neijia was written in 1676 by Huang's son, a student of Wang Zhengnan, Huang Baijia. It was called Neijia Quanfa. So the material was available at the time of the creation of the MDTJ.

I was actually unaware of this. Thanks, now I know and knowing is half the battle.

 

[Ninjamom]

exile, et al.,

Check out the chapter in the MDTJ on fist methods. In the introductory verbage, before the step-by-step descriptions of the forms, there are two and a half pages on martial arts history, including a description of the differences between internal and external styles/methods. I am referring to the Sang Kim translation (Turtle Press), so it is possible that the original says something slightly different, however, I think it fairly clearly does reference internal/external and their differences.

 

[exile]

exile, et al.,

Check out the chapter in the MDTJ on fist methods. In the introductory verbage, before the step-by-step descriptions of the forms, there are two and a half pages on martial arts history, including a description of the differences between internal and external styles/methods. I am referring to the Sang Kim translation (Turtle Press), so it is possible that the original says something slightly different, however, I think it fairly clearly does reference internal/external and their differences.

Thanks, Mjm. Lauren also mentioned to me what I think is the same passage.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Actually there is a mention of the school of Neijia in Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan which was written in 1669, this is also the first time the name Zhang Sanfeng pops up as well...

Need to make a correction here

The Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan is the first time Zhang Sanfeng appears associated with martial arts (and it was not taiji). I beleive the name appears prior to that but as a Taoist Immortal.

 

[julius4]

Hello! I'm new Here and this looks like a great place! I do have question what the styles of Korean martial arts that looks similiar to chinese Tai chi Quan?

Also, has anyone ever heard of Hyunmudo?? Is this an internal forum of Korean martial arts?

 

[julius4]

Does anyone know if the Korean martial arts GiCheon is the same as Kichun style in Korea??? Thanks!

 

[Errant108]

Does anyone know if the Korean martial arts GiCheon is the same as Kichun style in Korea??? Thanks!

It's the same, just different systems of romanization.

 

[Errant108]

I was recently doing a bit of reading on the history of Korean martial arts and came across something interesting. In the Muyedobotongji there are explicit statements as to internal styles being better fighting styles than external ones, however, there are have been no native Korean internal styles.

Why do you think this is?

Given the proximity to China and the evident use of Chinese styles in korean you would think that at least one would have arisen. Was the Neo-Confucian influence to blame? Was it the obvious Korean liking for kicking methods?

Any thoughts on this?

While we teach that the idea of "external vs. internal" is a false dichotomy, we have sets that some consider "internal" in Cheolryun Gwonbeop.

 

[CDKJudoka]

Ruh roh. Didn't realise you still posted over here Aus.

 

[julius4]

Also, has anyone ever heard of Hyunmudo?? Is this an internal forum of Korean martial arts?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I found this on Google Books. The copyrights on these have long since passed into the public domain, so I quote a bit more here than I ordinarily would. Hope it helps:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tx...pt=ALLTYPES&ei=CXmhSbfXMo6mNZ6_2IoC#PPA293,M1

Corea, The Hermit Nation
BY
WILLIAM ELLIOT GRIFFIS
1885

The chief out-door manly sport in Corea is, by excellence, that of archery. It is encouraged by the government for the national safety in war, and nobles stimulate their retainers to excellence by rewards. Most gentlemen have targets and arrow-walks for practice in their gardens. At regular times in the year contests of skill are held, at which archers of reputation compete, the expense and prizes being paid for out of the public purse. Hamel says the great men's retainers have nothing to do but to learn to shoot. The grandees rival each other in keeping the most famous' archers, as an Englishman might his fox-hounds or as the daimios of Japan formerly vied with each other in patronizing the fattest and most skilful wrestlers.

Other manly sports are those of boxing and fist-fights. Young men practice the "manly art" in play with each other, and at times champions are chosen by rival villages and a set-to between the bruisers is the result, with more or less of broken heads and pulpy faces. In large cities the contestants may come from different wards of the same city. In Seoul, usually in the first month, there are some lively tussles between picked champions, with betting and cheering of the backers of either party. Often these trials of skill degenerate into a free fight, in which clubs and stones are used freely; cracked skulls .and loss of life are common. The magistrates do not usually interfere, but allow the frolic to spend itself.

Here's a slightly more amusing account of 'martial arts' as practiced in Korea in olden times. Native art? Probably, but taught in many countries, I think...

Corea or Cho-Sen: The Land of the Morning Calm

COREA
OR CHO-SEN
THE LAND OF THE MORNING CALM
BY
A. HENRY SAVAGE-LANDOR
AUTHOR OF
"ALONE WITH THE HAIRY AINU"
With Numerous Text and Full-Page Illustrations
from Drawings made by the Author
LONDON
WILLIAM HEINEMANN
1895

Women, somehow or other, are scarce in Corea, and always in great demand. The coolies, and people of a similar or lower standing, cannot do without a female companion, for it is she who prepares the food, washes the clothes, and sews them up. She is beaten constantly, and very often she beats the man, for the Corean woman can have a temper at times. Jealousy en plus is one of her chief virtues. I have seen women in Seoul nearly tearing one another to pieces, and, O Lord! How masterly they are in the art of scratching. The men on such occasions stand round them, encouraging them to fight, the husbands enjoying the fun more than the other less interested spectators. The women of the lower classes seem to be in a constant state of excitement and anger. They are always insulting one another, calling each other names, or scolding and even ill-treating their own children. What is more extraordinary still to European ears, is that I once actually saw a wife stand up for her husband, and she did it in a way that I am not likely soon to forget.

A soldier was peacefully walking along a narrow street, half of which was a sort of drain canal, the water of which was frozen over, when a man came out of a house and stopped him. The conversation became hot at once, and with my usual curiosity, the only virtue I have ever possessed, I stopped to see the result.

"You must pay me back the money I lent you," said the civilian in a very angry tone of voice.

"I have not got it," answered the military man, trying to get away.

"Ah! you have not got it ?" screamed a third personage, a woman emerging from the doorway, and without further notice hit the soldier on the head with the heavy wooden mallet commonly used for beating clothes.

The husband, encouraged by this unexpected reinforcement, boldly attacked the soldier, and, whilst they were occupied in wrestling and trying to knock each other down, the infuriated woman kept up a constant administration of blows, half at least of which, in her aimless hurry, were received by the companion of her life for whom she was fighting. Once she hit the poor man so hard—by mistake—that he fell down in a dead faint, upon which the soldier ran for his life, while she, jumping like a tiger at him, caught him by the throat, spinned him round like a top, and floored him, knocking him down on the ice. Then she pounced on him, with her eyes out of her head with anger, and giving way to her towering passion, pounded him on the head with her heels while she was hitting him on the back with her mallet.

"You have killed my husband, too, you scoundrel!" she cried, while the defeated warrior was struggling hard, though in vain, to escape.

As she was about to administer him a blow on the head that would have been enough to kill a bull, she fortunately slipped on the ice and went sprawling over her victim. The soldier, more dead than alive, had raised himself on his knees, when that demon in female attire rose again and embracing him most tenderly, bit his cheek so hard as to draw a regular stream of blood. I could stand it no longer, and proceeded on to the slippery ice to try to separate them, but hardly was I within reach than I was presented with a sound blow on my left knee from the mallet which she was still manipulating with alarming dexterity, by which I was at once placed hors de combat before I had time even to offer my services as a peace-maker. Not only that, but besides the numberless "stars" which she made me see, the pain which she caused me was so intense that, hopping along as best I could on to the street again, I deemed it prudent to let them fight out their own quarrel and go about my own business.

"Never again as long as I live," I swore, when I was well out of sight, as I rubbed my poor knee, swollen up to the size of an egg, "never shall I interfere in other people's quarrels. Who would have foreseen this? And from a woman, too!"