ninjutsu & Marines

[Cryozombie]

He is also strongly focus on the conditioning element. To be a good warrior you need to be in shape. Thats been discussed before. Obviously the marines do more exercise than just walking.

I dont want to take this off topic... but Im sorry to say there is a HUGE... IMMEASURABLY HUGE... difference between the kind of conditioning a Soldier/Marine needs on the modern battlefield and what the average Martial Artist needs to survive an encounter with a drunk mofo in a bar looking to pick a fight. I dont need to doubletime march 15-20 miles with an 80lb pack and a rifle to get to the bar... in 30 minutes...you know what I am sayin?

I'd like to point out that being in shape does not make you a good fighter. And being a good fighter does not mean you are in shape either. I know some bad mother bikers that are easily over 300lbs and its NOT a Stallone physique, if you catch my meaning and I wouldn't try an mess with them... they have been in more REAL fights than most of us will ever see.

Comparing the neccessary physical conditioning of a Marine to the average Martial Artist is about the same as comparing the Cooking skills of Emiral or Morimoto to say... my ex wife... she was a decent cook... but c'mon.

 

[Connovar]

Experienced grapplers can probably weather the storm more readily. An elite level wrestler or grappler can "subdue" unarmed opponents because of high-level repetition. Likewise, their major strength - aggression and lack of fear of contact - makes them good candidates for the transition to weapons-based systems.

Notice here that he uses the term grappler (i.e wrestling, judo, bjj, submission wrestling etc). Their training which includes heavy amounts of attempting and succeeding with techniques againts full resistance gives them the attributes needed. (aggression, lack of fear of contact)

As stated earlier I spent many years with the bujinkan. I have also done competitive freestyle wrestling, submission wrestling, traditional jiu-jitsu and brazilian jiu-jitsu. There is a world of difference between the intensity of these grappling systems and those of the bujinkan. The techniques are more similiar especially jiu-jitsu and its varients as would be expected. Its the training under full resistance early in the training that is the difference.

The bujinkan has the techniques. It lacks the appropriate training methods (resistive sparring or "rolling"). Without the proper training methods it makes it much less likely to perform the techniques under stress or realistic resistance.

Takamatsu was known to spar or compete etc. Why Hatsumi avoids it I do not know. Is he wiser than Takamatsu and the sports and athletic training experts and military trainers out there?

Perhaps it is heresy in the bujinkan to take an opposing position to Hatsumi! However it troubles me to see so many people blindly follow someone when in fact science and experience show him to be wrong. Hatsumi isnt going to be there if you need to protect yourself or your loved ones. The price of blind obedience could be high.

 

[Cryozombie]

What I am getting from your posts Connovar, not only in relation to the Bujinkan, but most of the arts here on this board... "If it aint MMA, its useless"

Arts that focus on striking, kicking, weapons, etc... wont do you any good, cuz they aint high intensity sport wrestling.

Is that about what you are saying? Because if so, perhaps you should take it to the MMA forum, where that rhetoric is more tolerated, or perhaps try saying it in the Kenpo or Arnis forums and see if they agree that only Grapplers can fight.

but whatever your personal crusade against the bujinkan is, its getting old...

 

[Bigshadow]

As stated earlier I spent many years with the bujinkan.

That means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Time spent training doesn't mean a person has learned anything.

 

[Connovar]

What I am getting from your posts Connovar, not only in relation to the Bujinkan, but most of the arts here on this board... "If it aint MMA, its useless"

Arts that focus on striking, kicking, weapons, etc... wont do you any good, cuz they aint high intensity sport wrestling.

Is that about what you are saying? Because if so, perhaps you should take it to the MMA forum, where that rhetoric is more tolerated, or perhaps try saying it in the Kenpo or Arnis forums and see if they agree that only Grapplers can fight.

but whatever your personal crusade against the bujinkan is, its getting old...

Any just where did I say MMA? We are talking about training methodogy which can be easily adopted to the bujinkan. If its getting old then dont respond or post articles trying to bash grapplers. It was Seago who posted this article not me.

 

[Connovar]

That means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Time spent training doesn't mean a person has learned anything.

This is especially true if the training is faulty. I am comfortable because the science is on my side. I know that making the training easy allows more soccer moms and out of shape and plain lazy people show up to class. There is money to be made for sure by such stategies, but that doesnt make it correct.

 

[Kreth]

This is especially true if the training is faulty.

Or the student...
I agree with Technopunk. If you want to continually bash the Bujinkan, find another forum to do it in, it's off-topic for this one. That axe of yours must be ground down to the handle by now anyway...

 

[Connovar]

Or the student...
I agree with Technopunk. If you want to continually bash the Bujinkan, find another forum to do it in, it's off-topic for this one. That axe of yours must be ground down to the handle by now anyway...

My axe handles are made of high grade steel! Bye the way if you read the thread you will see it is very much on topic.

 

[Kreth]

My axe handles are made of high grade steel! Bye the way if you read the thread you will see it is very much on topic.

The OP's article is on-topic, as a Bujinkan instructor contributed to the program. Your opinion on the state of training in the Bujinkan is not.

 

[Connovar]

The OP's article is on-topic, as a Bujinkan instructor contributed to the program. Your opinion on the state of training in the Bujinkan is not.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Cryozombie]

Nevermind. S'not worth it.

 

[Connovar]

Where did I complain that all three are attacking me. Of course you wont be able to prove that because I didnt. If you want to attack then go ahead, I am a big boy. I only ask for equal treatment under forum rules not just bujinkan thread "sort of rules"

Actually I think you are confusing your roles as moderator and forum member. But we are just getting off topic here arent we. Perhaps I should just start another thread about the differnces btw Takamatsu did and what Hatsumi preaches. Then there wouldnt be this arguement over who is off topic, right?

 

[Connovar]

Thank you. I accept the retraction of your reply.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

My spontaneous guess is that Hatsumi would be encouraging sparring a bit more if he had higher thoughts about our abilities to fight with Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, and not just fight in general.
My last contribution to this thread.

 

[Cryozombie]

Thank you. I accept the retraction of your reply.

Dont thank me for anything.

I pulled that reply because it was in violation of MT's Policies. *I* am trying to follow them... and it was removed BEFORE you posted your response... So your response is just more proof that you are just trying to stir **** rather than contribute. Keep it up.

 

[shesulsa]

Putting personal opinions of the bujunkan and its practices, students and teachers aside (which would only serve to stay on topic), may I ask you this, Mr. Seago? And I do appreciate your tolerance of this outsider....

Is there a lack of H2H or CQC training in the booj in general? or is it a dojo-by-dojo thing? I would think each particular training medium would probably lean towards the strengths of the instructor coinciding with a generally approved syllabus.

I'm reading two differing opinions that Hatsumi is encouraging weapons-based combat and that he does not encourage sparring. What is your experience and how do you think this will integrate with the current curriculum of the Bujinkan?

 

[Connovar]

Technopunk, I would suggest we get back on topic. Personal attacks are really inappropriate especially coming from a moderator.

 

[shesulsa]

I'll now recuse myself from the discussion.

Anyone who sincerely feels they are being personally attacked, then use the RTM feature in the post you have a problem with. It's the little red triangle in the top right of each post.

However, I think everyone posting in the thread should heed this moderator warning to remain on topic and refrain from personal attacks.

 

[rutherford]

More and more I'm of the opinion that changing the rules in a conflict changes your entire strategy. But that being able to change your strategy is absolutely essential for a Martial Artist. Of course sport fighting is different than a lethal assault from an unseen assailant. So what?

I find weapons training to be very similar. When I sparred in a JKD gym, they quickly learned not to put a motorcycle helmet on me. I'll happily use it as the tool of destruction it was meant to be. What ever I have available.

That's also why I love training in the Bujinkan.

 

[Dale Seago]

Putting personal opinions of the bujunkan and its practices, students and teachers aside (which would only serve to stay on topic). . .

Oh, and we couldn't POSSIBLY allow THAT, now could we? (hee!)

may I ask you this, Mr. Seago? And I do appreciate your tolerance of this outsider....

I'm tolerant of anyone who genuinely wants information and doesn't have a personal agenda to push, whether she has the remotest interest in doing what I do or not.

Um, 'specially if she's a Moderator (reflexively doffing bonnet and tugging forelock).

Is there a lack of H2H or CQC training in the booj in general? or is it a dojo-by-dojo thing? I would think each particular training medium would probably lean towards the strengths of the instructor coinciding with a generally approved syllabus.

I'm reading two differing opinions that Hatsumi is encouraging weapons-based combat and that he does not encourage sparring. What is your experience and how do you think this will integrate with the current curriculum of the Bujinkan?

It's largely a dojo-by-dojo thing. With reference to the MCMAP, I think it's important to realize that the entire program, relatively new as it is, is still very much at the "shoden level" stage as I describe it in this post:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=723825&#post723825

Please keep in mind that the MCMAP is being designed as something to be pursued throughout the entire military career of every Marine at every level. Ultimately, I expect to see them moving into the equivalent of chuden and okuden levels.

That being said, I do feel that some sort of randori or "free play" is absolutely crucial to one's development. There are many ways this can be approached, but the critical thing for a teacher is to find ways to do this which do not cause the students to lose sight of the concepts and principles of proper taijutsu.

In my own dojo we don't "spar", in a competitive/"MMA" sort of fashion as a rule; but I do incorporate ways of periodically ensuring that students have a certain amount of "pressure testing" which requires them to be spontaneous and adaptive. Over the years I've had comparatively few students get into unavoidable physical altercations. . .but when you consider that I've been in this art for 22 years and have been teaching for a fair amount of that time, of course there have been some. No student of mine has ever been injured (other than at most a scrape or bruise) by an opponent out on t3h str33t.

Now that I think of it, this is interesting too: No student of mine has ever found it necessary to seriously injure an opponent.

The latest incident, as it happens, was yesterday. A yondan student of mine, Lawrence, called my cell and left me a voicemail (I was on duty running a personal protection detail at the time and couldn't answer), just to thank me for the training.

Lawrence is a deputy sheriff, and yesterday he had the unpleasant task along with his partner of enforcing a residential eviction order. The tenant had already lost his wife and his job, and was now being forced out of his apartment by his landlord as well.

Tenant wouldn't open the door. When Lawrence and his partner entered with the key they'd been provided, the tenant grabbed a folding Buck knife and held it to his own throat (a certain scene from Blazing Saddles comes to mind here, but I'll forbear because this guy was genuinely willing to just go ahead and check out until the next turn of the Wheel).

Lawrence holstered his pistol, talked his way in close, created a momentary mental distraction, and WHAMMO he had the guy on the floor and cuffed, minus the knife (which he kept as a souvenir and showed us in class last night).

No dead tenant shot by an overzealous deputy following Departmental policy that says when a subject exhibits a potentially deadly weapon you go for your pistol.

In fact, no injuries at all. To either party.

And Lawrence sat there in the apartment as the cuffed subject sobbed, and cradled the subject's head: "It's going to be all right now, you're going to make it . . ."