New School WT Sparring and how it might be fixed.

paitingman

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Olympic Taekwondo has changed quite a bit over the past decade.

Plainly, it went from run-and-gun roundhouse kick battles (with turning kicks thrown in) to lead leg fencing (spiced with turning kicks).

The removal of the "trembling shock" rule and requirement of only a touch with the foot to the head for 3 points, in conjunction with e-hogu, has made light, lead leg kicks a powerful tool and a huge threat. It's become a much bigger part of the game.
Human judges would likely rarely score front leg pumping type kicks 10 years ago, but computers don't care and now touches to the face count.

That's my take. Please offer your own thoughts on the matter.

My tweak would be to keep the e-hogu, but remove much of its protective advantages at the elite levels. (Keep the helmets obviously)
Sensors with thin padding. This would change the sport dramatically once again.
The threat of giving up light shots from your opponent is still there, but now they might hurt a little.
But powerful, dynamic blows that may not score are also now a huge threat once again.
 

dvcochran

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Olympic Taekwondo has changed quite a bit over the past decade.

Plainly, it went from run-and-gun roundhouse kick battles (with turning kicks thrown in) to lead leg fencing (spiced with turning kicks).

The removal of the "trembling shock" rule and requirement of only a touch with the foot to the head for 3 points, in conjunction with e-hogu, has made light, lead leg kicks a powerful tool and a huge threat. It's become a much bigger part of the game.
Human judges would likely rarely score front leg pumping type kicks 10 years ago, but computers don't care and now touches to the face count.

That's my take. Please offer your own thoughts on the matter.

My tweak would be to keep the e-hogu, but remove much of its protective advantages at the elite levels. (Keep the helmets obviously)
Sensors with thin padding. This would change the sport dramatically once again.
The threat of giving up light shots from your opponent is still there, but now they might hurt a little.
But powerful, dynamic blows that may not score are also now a huge threat once again.
I have not kept up with the scoring rule changed in the last decade. But was disappointed from of the changes in the 90's & 2000's.
Our GM had a very strong talk recently about how most the people in leadership at WT and Kukkiwon were children when their parents migrated to the US and other countries to teach in the 70's. There is so much being lost to politics. We are MDK but also align with the WT banner like most TKD schools. I am saddened by some of the Korean MA changes that are politically driven and very thankful for our MDK heritage.
 

Jaeimseu

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People always used to complain about poor referees. Now we are stuck with e-hogus and touches to the headgear counting for big points. To me, thats the biggest problem. Athletes game the head contact rules and instead of encouraging advanced techniques as was likely intended by offering bonus points for jumps or turns, it ends up discouraging those techniques because the safer player might rub their pant leg on the opponents head and rack up easy points. So now we see two players standing on one leg playing tag. As a result, matches are boring to watch. Of course, old school Olympic Taekwondo was also boring to watch for non Olympic Taekwondo people. The players would posture and feint for 2 and a half minutes of a 3 minute round.


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skribs

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I think the rules they've made to take away the ultra-conservative styles (i.e. taking away the crane stance, not granting points if you fall down while getting the point) have improved the sport.

This is a product I saw on Shark Tank, but also on other videos, which is designed to take pressure into account:

The basic idea is that a light hit won't score as much as a heavy hit.
 

Dirty Dog

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Scrap the hogu. Use a ruleset similar to what K1 or the old PKA system used. Allow more than the tiny subset of TKD allowed under the current rules. Score it like boxing is scored.
 

jobo

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Olympic Taekwondo has changed quite a bit over the past decade.

Plainly, it went from run-and-gun roundhouse kick battles (with turning kicks thrown in) to lead leg fencing (spiced with turning kicks).

The removal of the "trembling shock" rule and requirement of only a touch with the foot to the head for 3 points, in conjunction with e-hogu, has made light, lead leg kicks a powerful tool and a huge threat. It's become a much bigger part of the game.
Human judges would likely rarely score front leg pumping type kicks 10 years ago, but computers don't care and now touches to the face count.

That's my take. Please offer your own thoughts on the matter.

My tweak would be to keep the e-hogu, but remove much of its protective advantages at the elite levels. (Keep the helmets obviously)
Sensors with thin padding. This would change the sport dramatically once again.
The threat of giving up light shots from your opponent is still there, but now they might hurt a little.
But powerful, dynamic blows that may not score are also now a huge threat once again.
does it need rescuing, it's an Olympic sport that has a particular scoring system, and seem to shy away from causing serious injury, the answer would seem to be do something else that fits your requirements and leave the leg fencers to their art.
 

dvcochran

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I think the rules they've made to take away the ultra-conservative styles (i.e. taking away the crane stance, not granting points if you fall down while getting the point) have improved the sport.

This is a product I saw on Shark Tank, but also on other videos, which is designed to take pressure into account:

The basic idea is that a light hit won't score as much as a heavy hit.
Do you know if it is being produced and sold anywhere?
 

dvcochran

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Scrap the hogu. Use a ruleset similar to what K1 or the old PKA system used. Allow more than the tiny subset of TKD allowed under the current rules. Score it like boxing is scored.

Agree with scrapping or modifying the e-hogu but not a conventional hogu as padding. I hate that they have taken away the 3 element scoring rule. I hope we are in a trial by fire period, trying to take the human error out of scoring and that corrections will soon be made.
There was more cat and mouse before the e-hogu but the refs always had the option of giving stalling warnings and point deductions. Another bad example of taking the contact out of a contact sport.
 

skribs

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Agree with scrapping or modifying the e-hogu but not a conventional hogu as padding. I hate that they have taken away the 3 element scoring rule. I hope we are in a trial by fire period, trying to take the human error out of scoring and that corrections will soon be made.
There was more cat and mouse before the e-hogu but the refs always had the option of giving stalling warnings and point deductions. Another bad example of taking the contact out of a contact sport.

What is the "3 element scoring rule"?

My issue with the corner judges scoring points is that you go to a tournament, and one ring the scores will always be 37-32, and the other ring the scores will always be 1-2, even for similar matches (i.e. same style, same level of contact, same amount of hits). Sometimes they're not quite in sync with their button presses, some are more stingy with points, etc.
 

dvcochran

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What is the "3 element scoring rule"?

My issue with the corner judges scoring points is that you go to a tournament, and one ring the scores will always be 37-32, and the other ring the scores will always be 1-2, even for similar matches (i.e. same style, same level of contact, same amount of hits). Sometimes they're not quite in sync with their button presses, some are more stingy with points, etc.
Visible shutter, knockdown, or knockout. Agree, that there is too much subjectivity in judging. That is why it is encouraged to become a WT/Kukkiwon certified judge if you are going to be one.
 
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paitingman

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does it need rescuing, it's an Olympic sport that has a particular scoring system, and seem to shy away from causing serious injury, the answer would seem to be do something else that fits your requirements and leave the leg fencers to their art.
Yes, but what of the old school that we lost?
Taekwondo has changed and now the old sport is basically dead.
Do you have any sport taekwondo background?
 
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paitingman

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I like the objectivity of e-hogu, but I want the combativeness dialed back up.

Shrinking the padding even brings body punches back into play. It changes the clinch game.

why do we even need them?
Many other combat sports from controlled to full contact have shown that you can have body kicks in matches with no padding at all and still be pretty safe.
 

jobo

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Yes, but what of the old school that we lost?
Taekwondo has changed and now the old sport is basically dead.
Do you have any sport taekwondo background?
it's been " lost" because there isn5 a market for it, other wise there would be lots of " old school "taekwondo schools, it's a bit like complain that wind up grammerphones have been lost, its was a good idea, but it's time has past, apart from a few who can't let go of the past. I spent a couple of years back in the early 2000s doing taekwondo, ( my friends lad wanted to do it, so a took him and joined in,)it's always seemed more of a children's ma to be honest
 
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paitingman

paitingman

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it's been " lost" because there isn5 a market for it, other wise there would be lots of " old school "taekwondo schools, it's a bit like complain that wind up grammerphones have been lost, its was a good idea, but it's time has past, apart from a few who can't let go of the past. I spent a couple of years back in the early 2000s doing taekwondo, ( my friends lad wanted to do it, so a took him and joined in,)it's always seemed more of a children's ma to be honest
Thanks for posting in this thread. You should probably go train your 100m somehow.
 
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paitingman

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This may be a bit of a drift, but:

despite what I've already said, when transitioning to MMA and Muay Thai it was all of my lead leg techniques that proved very useful to me.

The style of blasting off the line with a well timed back leg roundhouse kick and sort of staying in the kicking pocket with double and triple rh... I was too used to playing this game of kicking and being ready for them to kick back so I can counter and kick more. I found myself too vulnerable to punches.
But I was using basically every lead leg trick I had ever trained with success. and found myself being able to stay at safer distances and angles. And from here even setting up some turning kicks. (maybe a little similar to current WT sparring lol) I also fell in love with front kick again.

The front leg style can be very useful. Shoot, look at Bill Wallace!
I say keep the current WT sparring style/sensors/scoring, remove the padding on the torso, and we go from a game back to a bout.
 
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gorilla2

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The padding is very thin and provides very limited protection...my son who is a High Level Competitor KOd a fighter with a body shot punch at USA Team trials and KOd another fighter at the the US Open with a back kick to the liver...the padding in TKD provides very limited protection...
 

dvcochran

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The padding is very thin and provides very limited protection...my son who is a High Level Competitor KOd a fighter with a body shot punch at USA Team trials and KOd another fighter at the the US Open with a back kick to the liver...the padding in TKD provides very limited protection...
I suppose I have worn the newest hogu's. I remember them being a bit thick but not restrictive when you got used to them. I have read quite a lot of negatives about the e-hogu scoring but I am not up to speed on the current scoring rules. As far as headgear I do not know how thicker would be of any benefit. My opinion is I will take the slight inconvenience of wearing sparring gear over the bruises and abrasions. I do know from experience it will not prevent a concussion or broken rib. If a person knowingly takes the risk to spar at the higher levels then they should not get upset when something bad happens. It is just reality. There is no padding made that prevents all injury.
 
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paitingman

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The padding is very thin and provides very limited protection...my son who is a High Level Competitor KOd a fighter with a body shot punch at USA Team trials and KOd another fighter at the the US Open with a back kick to the liver...the padding in TKD provides very limited protection...

I have seen these things happen as well, but I wouldn't call it very limited. It has its limits.
I may not be a High Level Competitor so trust me; I have received far too many back kicks, punches, you name it and been absolutely fine while wearing hogu and using Daedo hogu to not acknowledge that the hogu protects me quite a bit.
 
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