New kung fu training experiment

[JowGaWolf]

Problem: Students not using kung fu techniques during sparring.
Experiment: take away punches and kicks that students are depending too much on.

I spent 30 minutes watching a student jab through the entire sparring session. The problem that I see with most students is that they are too comfortable with the basic jab and kick attacks to the point where it overrides any form or technique that the learn. Why spend numerous months training, only to fall back on basic punches and kicks?

Next week I'll try something different during sparring. I'm going to ban all jabs and cross punching to force students to use kung fu techniques. Every jab that I see will cost the class some some brutal leg conditioning.
How do you get students to use the techniques that they are training in?

 

[lklawson]

I spent 30 minutes watching a student jab through the entire sparring session. The problem that I see with most students is that they are too comfortable with the basic jab and kick attacks to the point where it overrides any form or technique that the learn. Why spend numerous months training, only to fall back on basic punches and kicks?

At a guess, it's likely because the simple stuff works reliably.

If you want them to train in something other than the bread-n-butter basics, try drills which forces them to use the subset of techniques you want. If you want them to work infighting and not be 'stuck' on trading jabs, pair them with someone who has long arms and good hand-work. It'll force them to either stay out of range, which gets them nowhere, or to find a way to close the gap, passing the opponent's range and into infighting, clinch, and standing grappling. One way I've done this is to leave the target student "unarmed" and to give his partner (me or someone else) a rubber training knife and tell them the knife can only thrust or stab, not slash or cut. The target student very quickly stops trying to jab & punch and focuses on evasive footwork, parrying handwork, and figuring out how to capture the weapon limb, close the gap, and come to clinch & infighting range.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're goal is?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you want them to train in something other than the bread-n-butter basics, try drills which forces them to use the subset of techniques you want.

I did the drill stuff because it worked wonders for me, now I almost barely know what a jab is, but for them something didn't click. You understand my goal correctly. I haven't tried the knife scenario in that manner. What happens when the knife is removed and it's hand vs hand? Do they go back to the basic kicks and jabs?

They know how to do the techniques so the only thing they need to do now is just use them even if it means they will get hit in the face if they use it the wrong way. But I just "can't make that horse drink." So I'm hoping that restricting the use of the Jab will force them to use and develop other skill sets.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I spent 30 minutes watching a student jab through the entire sparring session.

I am curious as to why you did not correct the student during the 30 minutes you were watching him.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I am curious as to why you did not correct the student during the 30 minutes you were watching him.

lol I did.. I even stopped the sparring to do the corrections. After 30 minutes of sparring I stopped the sparring all together because the students weren't even trying to do the technique. I record their sparring sessions so I can go back and analyze things that they were doing wrong. I edit the videos so it will play in a slower speed, that way they can see the same things I see. My disappointment is that the students didn't try. Had they tried, then I would have let them continue to work it out so the technique fits them.

After I stopped the sparring the other instructor and I worked with them to explain again the technique, the purpose of the technique, what causes it to fail, and what makes it successful. They know how to do the techniques because we drill them all the time, but drilling is not fighting. Drilling is not sparring. The only way that they'll be able to use these techniques is if they use them in a controlled sparring match that will allow them to make mistakes without being injured. I always tell them it's better to make a mistake when the fist aren't flying with the intent to hurt them, than to it is for to make a mistake when someone is trying to knock their head off.

Using Kung Fu techniques is like learning how to ride a bike. I can show, guide, and explain, how to ride the bike, but it's up to the student to get on the bike, to try and to learn those lessons that only come from trying. It's like I have to start over, so I'll have to ask her if she's been sparring with people outside of the school. If so she may be adopting their techniques which is destroying her kung fu. By this, I mean if whoever she is sparring against(outside of school) is landing good punches on her then she may think that those same techniques are good and will work when sparring in Jow Ga. It could also have a negative effect where she may think a Jow Ga defense doesn't work so she abandons it without asking herself questions like:
"Did I do the technique right?"
"Did I use the right technique?"
"Did I bail out of the technique?"
"Was my timing off?"
If this is the case then I can see why my Sifu was always cautious about us sparring against other schools. If this is the case then I'll have to tell her that she can't spar outside of school even if it's with family members.

We'll see how things will turn out next sparring class. I'm even thinking about reviewing videos with the class so they can see what I see. Maybe then it will hit home.

 

[Punchy]

Without being there and seeing this is only speculation , but I would say he's using the jab because he was timid .

There are many ways to get beyond this , using 2 man drills , sparring slowly, sparring only using certain techniques , etc.
One that I like to use is what I call 4 count fight. Person A throws 4 uncontested attacks while Person B does not defend , person B defends on the fourth attack and then returns with four of his own , and this continues back and forth .
One thing that we do is instead of the person being attacked during this drill simply standing there is to respond to each attack as if he were actually hit by it , this teaches the attacker to follow each attack logically with the next follow-up .
This drill is actually pretty fun as well as educational , it get you into some unusual spots that you have to attack and defend from.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Without being there and seeing this is only speculation , but I would say he's using the jab because he was timid .

There are many ways to get beyond this , using 2 man drills , sparring slowly, sparring only using certain techniques , etc.
One that I like to use is what I call 4 count fight. Person A throws 4 uncontested attacks while Person B does not defend , person B defends on the fourth attack and then returns with four of his own , and this continues back and forth .
One thing that we do is instead of the person being attacked during this drill simply standing there is to respond to each attack as if he were actually hit by it , this teaches the attacker to follow each attack logically with the next follow-up .
This drill is actually pretty fun as well as educational , it get you into some unusual spots that you have to attack and defend from.

I'll post a clip of the video of the student attacking.

 

[RTKDCMB]

lol I did.. I even stopped the sparring to do the corrections. After 30 minutes of sparring I stopped the sparring all together because the students weren't even trying to do the technique. I record their sparring sessions so I can go back and analyze things that they were doing wrong. I edit the videos so it will play in a slower speed, that way they can see the same things I see. My disappointment is that the students didn't try. Had they tried, then I would have let them continue to work it out so the technique fits them.

When it comes to listening to instructions and following them some students are just not trying, some students are trying and some students are very trying.

A problem I see every now and then is students who back away too much to the point where they can't counter attack so sometimes I will get them to do some toe to toe hand sparring (sparring where their front feet have to remain in close proximity) so that they are forced to stay in range and work on their defenses.

 

[Buka]

When in Rome...

Maybe try a drill where one student throws only the jabs and the kick attacks you spoke of - and have the opponent smoke his butt only using Kung Fu techniques. You could demonstrate how it's done first, that's usually a good way for them to get the idea. Call out instructions as they spar.

OR - every time a student doesn't follow sparring instructions, be the good example and spar with them - show them the error of their ways.

I think the second one usually works better.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Problem: Students not using kung fu techniques during sparring.

If the technique that you try to teach to your students is "hand on the throat", you can set up a special sparring that if whoever can get his hand on his opponent's throat, he will win that round. Any other techniques they use, it won't be counted, Try to spar for 15 rounds and record the final result.

If you only allow this kind of special sparring for 6 months, your student will be forced to use the move that you try to teach them. Of course you can allow to have more than 1 move.

I have used this kind of special sparring to force my guys to use:

- rhino guard,
- head lock,
- single leg,
- haymaker,
- ...

 

[jks9199]

They know how to do the techniques so the only thing they need to do now is just use them even if it means they will get hit in the face if they use it the wrong way. But I just "can't make that horse drink." So I'm hoping that restricting the use of the Jab will force them to use and develop other skill sets.

I've seen two problems crop up in that...

First, if they've got something that's been working well enough in class -- people often don't want to risk pain and humiliation of trying something different.

Second, it's just plain hard to overcome a natural, almost instinctive reliance on something that they got very positive direct feedback that it works. Especially if that imprinted success was paired with some stress... like, say, sparring. We're pretty much made to lock down what works under a situation like that -- which is why you want to be careful what responses get reinforced in various training situations.

Personally -- I like to drill things with a partner with enough building intensity to work out the kinks then determine that it really does work BEFORE it's taken into the sparring ring. If they develop the confidence in the technique first, sparring becomes an exercise of putting it to use rather than trying to learn it.

 

[Koshiki]

I assume the drilling is already in place so that students are familiar with the techniques you want them to apply. If not, I'd agree and say that's the obvious first step. If they aren't really comfortable doing it in scripted drills, it's never going to come out in sparring.

From what I've seen, your sparring is pretty different to my preferred sparring. Since I'm not sure what the ruleset you use is, my suggestion might be completely unhelpful. It's similar to Kung Fu Wang's.

One thing I like to do is spar where both or all participants have different goals. Assuming the match is one on one, have one person try to outfight. Their sole goal is to control distance and maintain a long range fight. This is easy to do, especially with something like a jab, if both partners are trying to stay at that long range.

So have the other partner's goal be to close the gap and take the ranged sparrer to the ground. Your jabber will suddenly find that, while a jab may create a little space when their partner is ok with ranged sparring, it's not going to be an effective tactic against someone who's only goal is to get them on the ground. We don't generally spar with "winning," but if you're sparring is more competitively oriented, I'm sure you can make a fun game this way too, with different victory conditions for each participant.

There are a variety of ways you can mix this up, but the general concept of forcing a certain methodology on participants is a great way to get people out of their comfort zones and training for a variety of fighting styles, especially when the participants have different goal.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I assume the drilling is already in place so that students are familiar with the techniques you want them to apply. If not, I'd agree and say that's the obvious first step. If they aren't really comfortable doing it in scripted drills, it's never going to come out in sparring.

From what I've seen, your sparring is pretty different to my preferred sparring. Since I'm not sure what the ruleset you use is, my suggestion might be completely unhelpful. It's similar to Kung Fu Wang's.

One thing I like to do is spar where both or all participants have different goals. Assuming the match is one on one, have one person try to outfight. Their sole goal is to control distance and maintain a long range fight. This is easy to do, especially with something like a jab, if both partners are trying to stay at that long range.

So have the other partner's goal be to close the gap and take the ranged sparrer to the ground. Your jabber will suddenly find that, while a jab may create a little space when their partner is ok with ranged sparring, it's not going to be an effective tactic against someone who's only goal is to get them on the ground. We don't generally spar with "winning," but if you're sparring is more competitively oriented, I'm sure you can make a fun game this way too, with different victory conditions for each participant.

There are a variety of ways you can mix this up, but the general concept of forcing a certain methodology on participants is a great way to get people out of their comfort zones and training for a variety of fighting styles, especially when the participants have different goal.

Tried this. They were too afraid to close the gaps and they didn't understand the dangers of trying to fight on the outside with a jab when the jab does not have the reach. After this morning's practice I'll have to have a conference with one of the students to because she got hit in the head (taps) 20+ times in 2 days and still tries the same strategy that fails her. Her boyfriend is a new student and he did really good today with using the techniques. I told him that he couldn't do anymore jabs, he listen and actually used the techniques. It wasn't perfect but as the sparring went on, I could easily see him gaining a personal understanding of the technique and the more he used the technique the more comfortable he became and the more he trusted the technique. If he keeps it up then he'll be really good at fighting with the techniques.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I just want to say thanks for all of the suggestions. They are really helpful in helping me keep an open mind and to see different approaches. I know that it's not going to be a one size fits all solution, but now I have other options that I can try for when one method doesn't work.

 

[clfsean]

I'm curious ... why don't you think jabs & crosses aren't CMA?

 

[lklawson]

I did the drill stuff because it worked wonders for me, now I almost barely know what a jab is, but for them something didn't click. You understand my goal correctly. I haven't tried the knife scenario in that manner. What happens when the knife is removed and it's hand vs hand? Do they go back to the basic kicks and jabs?

My experience is, yes. It takes time to instill new habits.

They know how to do the techniques so the only thing they need to do now is just use them even if it means they will get hit in the face if they use it the wrong way. But I just "can't make that horse drink." So I'm hoping that restricting the use of the Jab will force them to use and develop other skill sets.

Hmm... Maybe make a new sparring "game" similar to the "marker" training tool that many knife students use. Short red, washable, marker in one student's hand/fist. The other one has to fight as if both are unarmed but every mark counts against him.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm curious ... why don't you think jabs & crosses aren't CMA?

They are in CMA's and they are in fighting in general. My issue is that 95% of the training that we do doesn't involve jabs. Jow Ga has 3 basic punches and a jab isn't included in that group. Our beginners form has more than 100 movements and only 4 jabs in it. Our second form has more than 100 movements and it only has 1 jab. We do more reverse punches in our style than we do jabs. This is the same with crosses. We don't train crosses nor have I seen any in the forms that I do or in the forms that the older students do. So taking into consideration in what we train, the jab should not be the main punch being used. A student who trains 5 hours a week for more than a 1year should be able to use more than just a jab when sparring. When 98% of the training doesn't involve jabs or crosses, then why are some students using attacks that consist of 99% jabs when fighting? And this is the issue that I have, especially when they aren't trying to use anything else but a jab.

If the only attack that a student uses is a jab then they aren't doing kung fu.

 

[clfsean]

Hmmmm ... ok.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hmmmm ... ok.

When I get the video up then it will be more clear. You have actually seen the same issue that I'm talking about first hand when we came to your school to spar.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

They are in CMA's and they are in fighting in general. My issue is that 95% of the training that we do doesn't involve jabs. Jow Ga has 3 basic punches and a jab isn't included in that group. Our beginners form has more than 100 movements and only 4 jabs in it. Our second form has more than 100 movements and it only has 1 jab. We do more reverse punches in our style than we do jabs. This is the same with crosses. We don't train crosses nor have I seen any in the forms that I do or in the forms that the older students do. So taking into consideration in what we train, the jab should not be the main punch being used. A student who trains 5 hours a week for more than a 1year should be able to use more than just a jab when sparring. When 98% of the training doesn't involve jabs or crosses, then why are some students using attacks that consist of 99% jabs when fighting? And this is the issue that I have, especially when they aren't trying to use anything else but a jab.

If the only attack that a student uses is a jab then they aren't doing kung fu.

If you punch with your

- leading hand, that's jab.
- back hand that's cross (if it's a straight punch).

IMO, there is no need to separate "cross" from "reverse punch".