New fence in Mexico

[Drac]

What I resent is other countries trying to tell us we don't have the right to do it.

I agree...

 

[Drac]

... It jerks my chain when a crime is commited and the response from the cops is "we lack the resources/manpower to invest in this" when I see 4-6 squadcars, 2 cops each, being used for Seatbelt enforcement stops... and YES that is a REAL EXAMPLE of what is going on here in Illinois... but thats a whole other thread

Thank God I'm an LEO in Ohio... 4-6 squad cars with 2 officers@ for a SEATBELT stop???? Like you said that's a whole nother thread...

 

[michaeledward]

I'm sorry to say that I missed this when the article was originally published ...

http://www.rawstory.com/showarticle.php?src=http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/26/bush-fence-bill/

Sorry - don't have the direct link to the WaPo.

No sooner did Congress authorize construction of a 700-mile fence on the U.S.-Mexico border last week than lawmakers rushed to approve separate legislation that ensures it will never be built, at least not as advertised, according to Republican lawmakers and immigration experts.

. . .

But shortly before recessing late Friday, the House and Senate gave the Bush administration leeway to distribute the money to a combination of projects -- not just the physical barrier along the southern border. The funds may also be spent on roads, technology and "tactical infrastructure" to support the Department of Homeland Security's preferred option of a "virtual fence."

So, basically, like the teacher money thrown to Ohio yesterday, this is a cheap way to throw money at votes in the border states.

And the FENCE will never be built.

Must be election time.

 

[Cryozombie]

Seems to me that one of the other threads on this board talked about 'hiding our light under a bushel' - (I know I've heard that argument somewhere) - kinda begs the question - why are even trying to be a light on a hill, if we won't let those who need to come here most, come?

Ok, so lemme ask you this: My fairly small suburban town is one of the ones looking to enact legislation against Illegal Aliens. It is currently esitmated that approxamatly 40% of our towns population is illegal. So far for 2006 the Village has footed over 400,000 dollars in unrecoverable ambulance bills for the illegal aliens living here. Meanwhile our roads have potholes large enough for a small child to hide in, and moderate rains cause them to flood to the point that they become impassible. The village claims it lacks the funds to repair the roads... But I wager that 400,000 bucks would go a LONG way twords repairing them. Instead... just to recover some of those funds, they have raised the rates for Water and Sewer, & Village Vehicle sticker costs. So, I'm paying for those people "who need to come here most"... while they hide from their responsibilies here (like the ambulance bills). And thats just ONE expense they are costing my town. Maybe you don't understand my frustration...

But... I have a feeling that you live better than I do... perhaps you'd like to pony up a portion of your income every month to help ME better MY situation... I mean... winter is upon us, and I still cant afford a working car... so I will be on my motorcycle in the snow again this year... Help a brother out. Its the least you can do, if you actually believe that its MY responsibility to let these folk do what they are doing here and then I pay for THEM.

 

[Cryozombie]

No, but I wouldn't spend millions of dollars building a giant fence around my house, either.

If the fence cost that much, your house is too big.

 

[michaeledward]

Ok, so lemme ask you this: My fairly small suburban town is one of the ones looking to enact legislation against Illegal Aliens. It is currently esitmated that approxamatly 40% of our towns population is illegal. So far for 2006 the Village has footed over 400,000 dollars in unrecoverable ambulance bills for the illegal aliens living here. Meanwhile our roads have potholes large enough for a small child to hide in, and moderate rains cause them to flood to the point that they become impassible. The village claims it lacks the funds to repair the roads... But I wager that 400,000 bucks would go a LONG way twords repairing them. Instead... just to recover some of those funds, they have raised the rates for Water and Sewer, & Village Vehicle sticker costs. So, I'm paying for those people "who need to come here most"... while they hide from their responsibilies here (like the ambulance bills). And thats just ONE expense they are costing my town. Maybe you don't understand my frustration...

But... I have a feeling that you live better than I do... perhaps you'd like to pony up a portion of your income every month to help ME better MY situation... I mean... winter is upon us, and I still cant afford a working car... so I will be on my motorcycle in the snow again this year... Help a brother out. Its the least you can do, if you actually believe that its MY responsibility to let these folk do what they are doing here and then I pay for THEM.

Estimated by whom ?

Assuming your number is even close to correct ........ what are those 40% doing in your community?

Somehow, I think that somewhere in your ancestry, someone in your lineage came to a new town, and those there before felt the newcomers weren't welcome either.

And .... although I think you are raising noise in an area better left silent .... I support a few notable causes. . . . . . . .

But perhaps most importantly, I am a big government kind of guy. I think government can do things to help the community. I don't try and tear the community and government down. In my estimation, that has been the tactic of the Republican party at least since I turned my attention toward politics in the mid-eighties. It seems that we reap what we sow. And the harvest may be upon some now, eh?

 

[heretic888]

If the fence cost that much, your house is too big.

Okay, lemme put it his way.

I wouldn't build a fence around my home. At all.

I've lived with them and I've lived without them. I prefer the latter.

Laterz.

 

[Cryozombie]

Estimated by whom ?

Assuming your number is even close to correct ........ what are those 40% doing in your community?

The Village Board, and this Number is supporetd by the Village president who does not believe we should remove them. What are they doing? Lessee... 2 PROMINENT Hispanic street gangs... 4 known fatal hit-and-runs in the last 18 months by Unlicenced, uninsured Illegal aliens, who were eventually caught, not to mention the ones who were not, or who were nto involved in FATAL accidents... and oh yes, did I mention that 400,000 in Unpaid, uncollectable ambulance fees?

Somehow, I think that somewhere in your ancestry, someone in your lineage came to a new town, and those there before felt the newcomers weren't welcome either.

Yes. I am 50-50 Irish German. My ancestors weren't welcome. The major difference? They came here, learned the language, and became LEGAL citizens, as opposed to being lawless criminals.

But perhaps most importantly, I am a big government kind of guy. I think government can do things to help the community. I don't try and tear the community and government down.

Nahhhh... never seen you make a post that would try to tear the current Government down... no sir... you've never done it. But for my part... I used to be a big supporter of government... But now I see it for what it is... and yes... I support removing most of it from our lives... like I said earlier... make it easier for them to become legal... so they can pay into the system and not be criminals. Until then, we need to keep them out, or make them pay, and Im waiting for that car you are buying me.

 

[Cryozombie]

I've lived with them and I've lived without them. I prefer the latter.

Laterz.

Well, we all have our own ideas on saftey... Believe me, if it was a) Affordable, and b) Legal in my neighborhood, I would have a 8 foot wall topped with barbed wire around my house.

As it stands, its hard to get a permit to fence in a dog run here.

 

[michaeledward]

The Village Board, and this Number is supporetd by the Village president who does not believe we should remove them. What are they doing? Lessee... 2 PROMINENT Hispanic street gangs... 4 known fatal hit-and-runs in the last 18 months by Unlicenced, uninsured Illegal aliens, who were eventually caught, not to mention the ones who were not, or who were nto involved in FATAL accidents... and oh yes, did I mention that 400,000 in Unpaid, uncollectable ambulance fees?


Yes. I am 50-50 Irish German. My ancestors weren't welcome. The major difference? They came here, learned the language, and became LEGAL citizens, as opposed to being lawless criminals.



Nahhhh... never seen you make a post that would try to tear the current Government down... no sir... you've never done it. But for my part... I used to be a big supporter of government... But now I see it for what it is... and yes... I support removing most of it from our lives... like I said earlier... make it easier for them to become legal... so they can pay into the system and not be criminals. Until then, we need to keep them out, or make them pay, and Im waiting for that car you are buying me.

So 40 % of the population of your village are living the MadMax world. <<shrugg>> I guess I understand your dilema. I do find the statistic strains credibility, but I don't know where you are, and so I must take your word for it.

As for your German heritage not being welcome / criminal - I suppose we have to go back and find the immigrant population that showed up before the German's and get their opinion on that matter.

And as for what language the immigrants speak, I think it is only fair to look forward ... how long ago did your German anscestors arrive? - several decades to determine what language a) they are speaking and b) we are speaking. And, just another random thought or two ---- I see lots of Sweedish Flags on the back of Saabs - Why doesn't anyone get upset with that? And, doesn't every major metropolis in the country have a 'Chinatown'? What language do they speak there? Why doesn't that seem to bother the people who don't like 'Hispanictown'?

Yes, I do tear down the current government. Because they are executing the responsibilities of government in a criminally incompetent manner. While every system has inherint inefficiencies, and no government will ever be perfect, the current Legislative and Executive players do not believe that government can do any good. Why on earth would someone vote for a person or group who does not believe in the institution of which, they are trying to become a part?

Voting for a candidate for government that you think is best going to remove government, in my opinion, is an act of insanity. Vote for the guy who believe in limited government - not the guy who wants to destroy government - or worse yet - manipulate what he sees as disfunctional for his personal gain (The Google - Tom Delay for instance).

 

[Tez3]

Unless you want the US to step down as the sole super-power.

Oh yes! Please!

 

[mrhnau]

Unless you want the US to step down as the sole super-power.

Oh yes! Please!

*eyeballs the country you are from*

yes, yes, it all becomes clear now

just playing!

 

[Don Roley]

Yes, I do tear down the current government. Because they are executing the responsibilities of government in a criminally incompetent manner. While every system has inherint inefficiencies, and no government will ever be perfect, the current Legislative and Executive players do not believe that government can do any good. Why on earth would someone vote for a person or group who does not believe in the institution of which, they are trying to become a part?

Straw man argument.

The current administration does not think that goverment can't do any good. But they think that the goverment should be running everything like they run the post office.

I think I explained it to you in the thread about this year's peace prize winner.

And .... although I think you are raising noise in an area better left silent .... I support a few notable causes. . . . . . . .

Why should you get to pick and choose what you will give money too and John has to pay taxes for causes he does not support? If you feel strongly enough about the matter, then you should be willing to put your money where your mouth is. That is the point I think John was trying to make.

But perhaps most importantly, I am a big government kind of guy. I think government can do things to help the community. I don't try and tear the community and government down.

You also wrote,

Vote for the guy who believe in limited government -

Limited government is not the same as a government that will "help" you. A government that protects you from other people and the harm they can do to you is a very needed part of goverment. But when goverment tries to come in and build up a community, it means that it has decided what we all will strive for. I hate that idea of someone imposing the goverment will on others and prefer to leave others alone as much as possible. Who gets to say what is the type of people we should be and why do they need the power of goverment to stiffle any voices that may disagree?

John is complaining that people who will not be paying taxes are costing tax dollars. Why should he pay taxes to something that does not benefit him, only a group of people that came here knowing that they are breaking the law? There is compassion, and then there is the tax man forcing you to pay up.

Those that want to help, should open up their hearts and wallets to do so. What I have trouble with is those that call out for compassion and expect everyone else to shell out cash because they feel that they know better than those people how the money they earn should be spent.

 

[Cryozombie]

As for your German heritage not being welcome / criminal - I suppose we have to go back and find the immigrant population that showed up before the German's and get their opinion on that matter.

Come now... You and I both know I was referring to my IRISH heritage when I say my ancestors came here and were unwanted. Its the reason my last name is no longer O'Boyle.

 

[Kacey]

And as for what language the immigrants speak, I think it is only fair to look forward ... how long ago did your German anscestors arrive? - several decades to determine what language a) they are speaking and b) we are speaking.

When my ancestors came here - predominately between 1900 and 1910, although one set of great-grandparents moved to Chicago in the 1860s - they spoke anything from Russian to German to Gaelic. They all learned English for dealing with those from other countries, because it was the common language of the areas to which they moved - Chicago, as previously stated, New York (upstate NY, not the city), and Alabama. Two of my granparents were born in the US - one in Chicago, and one in Alabama; the other two were brought here by their parents as young children - one was born in Russia, and the other en route.

And, just another random thought or two ---- I see lots of Sweedish Flags on the back of Saabs - Why doesn't anyone get upset with that?

Because the people with Swedish flags don't walk around talking loudly in Swedish and refusing to integrate with the larger society outside their own neighborhoods. One of the best things that happened in terms of creating an American culture was, in my opinion, when the neighborhoods that were so strictly stratified by culture became integrated - that was when it truly became necessary for people to learn English, so they could leave their own cultural enclave. Before that time, people stayed in - and protected the segragated nature of - their own enclaves.

One of the problems here is created by political correctness. Everyone is now hyphenated to avoid offending anyone... and I find it offensive that so many people will not identify themselves or others as simply "Americans". I am an American; I also happen to be Jewish, female, Caucasian, etc. - but I am not a hyphenated anything, and I am vocal about my objections to that when people try to categorize me that way. If some of the "politically correct" labels were removed - and thus stopped creating subgroups within society that serve to separate, rather than unite, I think that some of the problems would ease. We are so busy, as a society, identifying people by their origins, lest we offend them by omitting those origins, that we do many people a disservice. I know way too many people who are native speakers of some dialect of Spanish who are lumped in as Hispanic, and don't like it - because once they are labeled as Hispanic, everyone assumes they are from Mexico, and many of them aren't; they are from Spain, Portugal, Brazil, and Middle and South America, and they are emphatically not Mexican - a fact that is lost when they are lumped together.

And, doesn't every major metropolis in the country have a 'Chinatown'? What language do they speak there?

Because not every metropolis had a mass immigration of Chinese or other Asian immigrants at the time the city was being developed, and newer cities, while immigrants (both legal and illegal) may choose to live near others who share an ethnic background, a religion, a language, etc., and often newer immigrants end up being placed together deliberately by aid agencies who have found inexpensive housing, such areas are not as clearly defined as they were at the time - that is, the 1850s. And yes, many people in Chinatown speak Chinese - but they don't refuse to learn English for use outside their own community.

Why doesn't that seem to bother the people who don't like 'Hispanictown'?

See above. And also because Chinatown is an old area, well-established, and has been around since before racial discrimination was an issue. It is, at this point, less residential than it is aimed at the tourist trade, which is another issue. As a teacher, I know too many kids whose parents were born in the US and never bothered to learn English, and the kids resent having to learn it for school. This is, almost universally, a problem with the 2nd and 3rd generation Spanish speakers - never the new immigrants, whose parents have a clear idea of why they moved to the US and what they want for their kids, and how important it is for those kids to learn English - and therefore for the parents to learn as best they can - so their kids can gain the advantages of being American citizens. The ones who have lived in this country for 2 or 3 generations and never learned much English, if any, who stay within their own community because they cannot communicate with anyone outside it - those are the ones who are at the root of much of the problem. Historically, this actually did occur in Chinatown, but it changed so long ago that no one thinks about it, just like it did in the equivalent community of Germans who moved to Milwaukee.

Yes, I do tear down the current government. Because they are executing the responsibilities of government in a criminally incompetent manner. While every system has inherint inefficiencies, and no government will ever be perfect, the current Legislative and Executive players do not believe that government can do any good. Why on earth would someone vote for a person or group who does not believe in the institution of which, they are trying to become a part?

Because if I don't vote, I am giving up a significant portion of my ability to participate in government. Yes, the US government has some significant problems - but better to be part of the solution, by making my voice heard wherever and whenever I can, than to sit on the sidelines and complain.

Voting for a candidate for government that you think is best going to remove government, in my opinion, is an act of insanity. Vote for the guy who believe in limited government - not the guy who wants to destroy government - or worse yet - manipulate what he sees as disfunctional for his personal gain (The Google - Tom Delay for instance).

Herein lies one the greatest strengths, and greatest weaknesses, of the US government. Your definition of whom this person is may mirror mine, may differ in some minor details, may be totally different. That is what makes us a free republic, and is also what creates the opportunities that the self-serving use to increase their gain and our loss. Only by participating can we do anything about it.

 

[michaeledward]

Kacey

From that post, all arguments you make fall beneath the claim that Chinatown was around before racial discrimination.

Now it is truly unfair that I take that one proposition of yours, and because it is so blatantly wrong, and so indicitive of your lack of understanding of history, and discard all your other points.

But, Chinatowns across America exist because of racial discrimination. The Chinese immigrants of the 19th century were used, and abused, as indentured servants. Because of this, the created very closed, inward looking communities. This is why, one hundred and fifty years later, the native language is still used and revered in the Chinatowns across the country.

But, I will address one other thought in your post ...

When I suggest that others vote for a person who supports limited government, rather than those who seek to destroy government, I don't believe who those people are is open to interpretation. When someone says they want to 'starve the beast' or 'reduce the size of government so it is small enough to be drowned in a bathtub' - that is not someone in favor of limited government.

 

[Cryozombie]

When I suggest that others vote for a person who supports limited government, rather than those who seek to destroy government, I don't believe who those people are is open to interpretation. When someone says they want to 'starve the beast' or 'reduce the size of government so it is small enough to be drowned in a bathtub' - that is not someone in favor of limited government.

Personally, I think if things keep up in this manner, Im gonna find me an Oil Tanker or old Cruise ship and start a nice happy Mobile Country.

Who's with me?

 

[CoryKS]

Personally, I think if things keep up in this manner, Im gonna find me an Oil Tanker or old Cruise ship and start a nice happy Mobile Country.

Who's with me?

I was thinking about getting a motorcycle with a sidecar and a nuke and declare myself a sovereign nation. Any Stephenson fans here?

 

[Tez3]

*eyeballs the country you are from*

yes, yes, it all becomes clear now

just playing!

I like Americans.... I just can't eat a whole one!

 

[Don Roley]

But, Chinatowns across America exist because of racial discrimination. The Chinese immigrants of the 19th century were used, and abused, as indentured servants. Because of this, the created very closed, inward looking communities. This is why, one hundred and fifty years later, the native language is still used and revered in the Chinatowns across the country.

None of the above is really relevant to the current situation, is it not?

We have people that are not forced by law to live in certain areas choosing to build up their own little enclaves with their first loyalty it seems to another country. They are here illeagly, so they just can't look at America as home as the Chinese did.

And if you go to Chinatowns, 99 percent of the people seem to speak English. Those that don't were not born here.

But there are families in their third generation on American soil and they don't seem to feel that they need to learn the language. They resent being told they should learn it.

I have a lot of problems with people that come to Japan to live for a few years and won't learn the language. My kids are learning Japanese and English. It is just common sense to make the kids learn the language of where you live.

But a lot of hispanic families are not.

And that is going to be one hell of a big problem down the line. About half of the hispanics in America may be here outside the law. That means they do not have loyalty to America since they are not part of it. They will not learn the language and don't make an effort to be part of America or the other cultures that make it up.

I look at some of the wars that have started in other countries between different ethnic groups and I see trouble in a few decades. Americans are pretty good about accepting new groups. But to make a concious effort to not teach your kids English, to discourage it, is something we have rarely seen. We can imagine someone just off the boat being too old to learn a new language. But when they discourage the kids to learn our language that is a declaration that they will not be part of the greater whole.

And that is not going to end well.