New fence in Mexico

[CoryKS]

The problem with a wall or a fence - and I think this would be more like the Great Wall of China than the Iron Curtain - is that people will continue to find a way in as long as there is incentive for them to do so that outweighs the potential risk and consequences. Unless and until that changes, no wall, fence, or law will be effective, and we will continue to pour resources into preventing illegal immigration that could better be used elsewhere - for the benefit of current citizens, instead of the detriment of illegal aliens.

This is true. But it doesn't need to be an absolute success if it minimizes to a large enough degree the number of illegal aliens who risk the trip. As many as now come across the border, there are many who don't because of the danger, the cost, or other considerations. Some will still find a way to get through, but the number will likely be smaller because of the increased risk, cost, etc.

 

[michaeledward]

Anyway, the border patrol is a sort of wall or fence that also keeps people out (I suppose they keep people in that may be thinking of escaping to Mexico too). Do you think the border patrol may be offensive to someone, and should border patrols cease? Don't they serve pretty much the same purpose as the fence?

My opinion as to borders is that we should allow anyone who wishes to enter this country to work, access to enter the country to work. As the immigrants of the late 18th and early 19th century, they pass through a check in station (Ellis Island) to record their entry into the country. Give 'em a green card. Let them work. Eliminate quotas for who can enter the country. Eliminate the requirements for who can enter the country.

Let them all in.

Were we to adopt this philosophy, there would be zero illegal immigrants, because all immigrants are welcomed.

I am not afraid.

I am not afraid of immigrants.

I am not afraid of terrorists.

I am not afraid of gays.

I am not afraid of blacks.

I'll leave the fear to the other guys.

 

[CoryKS]

Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,

Yeah, I like that poem too. Hardly a basis for foreign policy, but... nice poem.

As for whom we are like to give offence, I'm sure they understand.

 

[BrandiJo]

I think i would be in suport of this idea if i had some assurance that it would be used just to keep illegal immagrants out, not to at some point keep us in
​

 

[CoryKS]

I think i would be in suport of this idea if i had some assurance that it would be used just to keep illegal immagrants out, not to at some point keep us in​

Good point, and that's why I asked michaeledward for clarification. If it keeps us in that's a problem, because you can't have freedom without the right to vote with your feet.

It brings up an interesting question: what happens if Mexico builds a wall on their side? That would certainly keep us in or, from their perspective, out. And they would be within their rights to do so, no?

 

[mrhnau]

I say build it. We need to add better security measures to this area. I don't see why anyone would be against this? If you choose to come in legally, it would be a non issue. If you chose to come in by nefarious means, it would be a big issue. Again I say, law abiding citizen=no issue. To the potential lawbreaker=huge issue.

great points.

I know a decent amount of immigrants here, including my wife. Every legal one I know is really upset about the situation with illegal immigrants. Legal immigrants wind up spending thousands of dollars for lawyers/fees from INS. I'm not asking for new laws, just please start enforcing the existing ones. If this fence stops illegal immigration, or at least stems the tide, then I encourage it.

 

[mrhnau]

My opinion as to borders is that we should allow anyone who wishes to enter this country to work, access to enter the country to work. As the immigrants of the late 18th and early 19th century, they pass through a check in station (Ellis Island) to record their entry into the country. Give 'em a green card. Let them work. Eliminate quotas for who can enter the country. Eliminate the requirements for who can enter the country.

Let them all in.

Prepare for huge overpopulation. Think its been growing too fast now? Think roads are crowded now? Think schools are bursting at the seams now? Frustrated at people living here w/out being able to speak the common language? Just wait until the flood gates are released. There is a reason we have immigration policies, and why industrialized countries have some form of immigration policy.

Were we to adopt this philosophy, there would be zero illegal immigrants, because all immigrants are welcomed.

*snort* they are welcome, if they adhere to the legal process of entering this country. There is a process, and thousands a year adhere to that principal, dishing out thousands of dollar to follow the legal process. They are quite welcome.

I am not afraid.

Except of Republicans, or those that do not adhere to your principle.

I am not afraid of immigrants.

Not a fear of immigrants, rather of uncontrolled immigration, overcrowding, taxing of our economy, overcrowding of our schools/roads. Not a fear of the illegal immigrant even, but the repurcusions, unless there are legitimate reasons for them not being here (criminal, terrorist, etc).

I am not afraid of terrorists.

ever heard of 9/11? how about the bombings of embassies over the past 20 years? London? Madrid train? You don't need to live in a state of morbid fear, but realize it is a problem and it needs to be dealt with. Adhering to a state of "I won't be afraid" is not going to deter many suicide bombers.

Since this is about illegal aliens, yes, I would be afraid of admitting terrorist across our porous border with Mexico. That is a recipe for disaster.

I am not afraid of gays.

I am not afraid of blacks.

I don't think this is much of an issue with immigration, but, then again... maybe it is for some people. I'm not away of this being an immigration issue.

I'll leave the fear to the other guys.

I'd prefer to be aware. Living in a state of constant fear is not the way to live, but you do need to be in a state of awareness. Being aware of a potential problem and dealing with it is not "being afraid" but being practical and aware. I'd prefer to be that way.

 

[heretic888]

I say build it. We need to add better security measures to this area. I don't see why anyone would be against this?

Because of the ungodly sum of money such a project would cost.

This on top of reconstruction efforts following Hurricane Katrina, that PNAC quagmire in Iraq, public education in need of drastic renewal, Social Security funds drying up in the near future, and preferential tax cuts to the wealthiest 10% in the country.....

Seriously, people, where do you think all this money is coming from?? Our education system is a joke (thanks, NCLB!), people are driving to Canada for their healthcare, and our environmental standards are less than ideal. Then, of course, there's the little things like, say, poverty.

Is a regional fence --- which may or may not work --- really best the use of our tax dollars?? I mean, really??

 

[mrhnau]

Because of the ungodly sum of money such a project would cost.

This on top of reconstruction efforts following Hurricane Katrina, that PNAC quagmire in Iraq, public education in need of drastic renewal, Social Security funds drying up in the near future, and preferential tax cuts to the wealthiest 10% in the country.....

in this country, it seems nothing is cheap. Its going to be pricey. We will always have other things to pay for. There will always be a crisis. At what point should we shell out the cash then? Or just leave it porous as it is?

I'd get into the tax cut thing, but this is about immigration LOL

Seriously, people, where do you think all this money is coming from?? Our education system is a joke (thanks, NCLB!), people are driving to Canada for their healthcare, and our environmental standards are less than ideal. Then, of course, there's the little things like, say, poverty.

Is a regional fence --- which may or may not work --- really best the use of our tax dollars?? I mean, really??

Part of the difficulty we are having here (in NC) with our education system is we are letting illegals come into our school systems. They are flooding them! regionally, 50% of the increase in new students come from children of illegal aliens.

I know a few people in Canada. The health system is not all that, from my understanding. you have a nice waiting line for most procedures (correct me if I'm wrong here! we have alot of canadians here). Alot of people come to the US because we have a great medical community. Most of th best doctors and best research is going on here.


Of course we have other issues. We have the poor, we have social security, we have hurricanes, floods, disasters of all sorts. Is is the best way to spend the money? I think so. Apparently congress/president thought so. I could see arguing against the cost of the project, but not the purpose of the project.

Lets take a look 5 years down the road and see if things have improved some. If so, I'll say its money well spent. I think 700 miles is not enough, but its a decent start.

 

[crushing]

I am not afraid.
I am not afraid of immigrants.
I am not afraid of terrorists.
I am not afraid of gays.
I am not afraid of blacks.
I'll leave the fear to the other guys.

It's good you're not afraid. I'm not sure I understand the purpose of lumping immigrants, gays, and blacks in with terrorists though, or what that has to do with a border fence.

 

[michaeledward]

It's good you're not afraid. I'm not sure I understand the purpose of lumping immigrants, gays, and blacks in with terrorists though, or what that has to do with a border fence.

Because those are the themes of the Republican campaign in 2006.

 

[michaeledward]

Prepare for huge overpopulation. Think its been growing too fast now? Think roads are crowded now? Think schools are bursting at the seams now? Frustrated at people living here w/out being able to speak the common language? Just wait until the flood gates are released. There is a reason we have immigration policies, and why industrialized countries have some form of immigration policy.

I do not think population is growing too fast, except on a global scale.

I'm not worried about crowded roads, and I drive for a living. I'm not worried about school population, because for every child attending school, there is an adult working somewhere. I am not frustrated with language issues; occassionally challenged, but by the second generation, they all speak English.

I am not worried by any of these items.

I think they are false bogeymen.

 

[mrhnau]

I do not think population is growing too fast, except on a global scale.

I'm not worried about crowded roads, and I drive for a living. I'm not worried about school population, because for every child attending school, there is an adult working somewhere. I am not frustrated with language issues; occassionally challenged, but by the second generation, they all speak English.

I am not worried by any of these items.

I think they are false bogeymen.

Immigration may not be a problem where you live, but here it is. NC has two of the fastest growing counties in the US (percentage wise). almost all illegal aliens.

My wife has a 5th grader that can barely speak english. His parents were born in Mexico. Was he? Nah. Born in Chicago. Still can't speak the language. Isolated incident? Maybe. I don't know alot of illegals, so I can't speak generally.

For every child attending school, there are tax payers paying for him/her. The parents of those children are almost certainly not paying taxes. This increases the burden on those that are on the tax roles. I'm one of those being asked to build more schools, buy more land and send these kids to college. there is already a teacher shortage, and now they are wanting to go year-round here in my county. they are going to lose alot of teachers accordingly.

 

[heretic888]

in this country, it seems nothing is cheap. Its going to be pricey. We will always have other things to pay for. There will always be a crisis. At what point should we shell out the cash then? Or just leave it porous as it is?

The logical choice --- the one that most conservative ideologues are so dead set against --- is to dramatically cut military spending. We spend more on military expenditures than every other country in the world combined. That is, quite literally, insane.

If we distanced ourselves from the PNAC's self-proclaimed agenda of creating and sustaining a Pax Americana, then tax payer dollars could be freed up to pay for other things.

Part of the difficulty we are having here (in NC) with our education system is we are letting illegals come into our school systems. They are flooding them! regionally, 50% of the increase in new students come from children of illegal aliens.

And how, exactly, does one know if these children are the offspring of legal immigrants as opposed to illegal immigrants?? Did somebody actually poll their parents and find out??

Alot of people come to the US because we have a great medical community. Most of th best doctors and best research is going on here.

Yes, and I'm sure the people that can actually afford "the best doctors" have no need for healthcare plans and the like. Of course, this in no way applies to the majority of the populace, but why get bothered up in little facts like that??

By the way, research in no way correlates with quality healthcare.

Of course we have other issues. We have the poor, we have social security, we have hurricanes, floods, disasters of all sorts. Is is the best way to spend the money? I think so. Apparently congress/president thought so.

Which isn't saying much, given that we presently have the most fiscally irresponsible government within the last 100 years of American history. The only bill during his 6 years in office that this president has vetoed is increased federal funding for stem-cell research.

Pork barrel, much??

I could see arguing against the cost of the project, but not the purpose of the project.

The purpose of this project is to perpetuate the xenophobic ideology that has defined immigration laws in the United States since the mid-19th century.

Lets take a look 5 years down the road and see if things have improved some. If so, I'll say its money well spent.

Given the fact that we have a multi-billion dollar deficit, are in the middle of a military occupation of a hostile foreign country, and are struggling in a number of domestic issues....

I think it's just business as usual in Washington.

Laterz.

 

[mrhnau]

The logical choice --- the one that most conservative ideologues are so dead set against --- is to dramatically cut military spending. We spend more on military expenditures than every other country in the world combined. That is, quite literally, insane.

Unless you want the US to step down as the sole super-power, I doubt thats going to happen. Point taken though... we could shave some things perhaps, but I'm not big on draconian cuts.

And how, exactly, does one know if these children are the offspring of legal immigrants as opposed to illegal immigrants?? Did somebody actually poll their parents and find out??

That is hard to tell. As for if its been polled, I'd have to find out. Most of those my wife works with have to have an interpreter for discussions. Does that mean they are illegal? no, but if they are on the route to citizenship, they have to be somewhat literate in the language. Is that the only guideline? no...

I'll see if I can find some information on that. you have me interested now.

By the way, research in no way correlates with quality healthcare.

No, but it insures that medicine in the future is going to be better. Also, if there are radical new methods, there has to be a testing process, human trials. So, even during the research stages, health care can improve

Which isn't saying much, given that we presently have the most fiscally irresponsible government within the last 100 years of American history. The only bill during his 6 years in office that this president has vetoed is increased federal funding for stem-cell research.

Pork barrel, much??

I'll have to agree. not very fiscally responsible.

The purpose of this project is to perpetuate the xenophobic ideology that has defined immigration laws in the United States since the mid-19th century.

as opposed to just having open border. Is that what you would like? Let anyone in any time they want? no regulation or proper procedure for entry?

Given the fact that we have a multi-billion dollar deficit, are in the middle of a military occupation of a hostile foreign country, and are struggling in a number of domestic issues....

I think it's just business as usual in Washington.

Laterz.

*nods* I'll agree there

 

[heretic888]

Unless you want the US to step down as the sole super-power....

Yes, I do.

It is precisely because of this unilateral Pax Americana ideology that we are having such a time of battling international terrorism.

Point taken though... we could shave some things perhaps, but I'm not big on draconian cuts.

I'm not what sure what you mean by "draconian cuts" here, but even as little as a 10% decrease in our current military expenditure would free up billions of dollars for domestic issues like immigration reform, education reform, Social Security, and so on.

Also, if there are radical new methods, there has to be a testing process, human trials. So, even during the research stages, health care can improve

Okay, I am going to tell you something right now for the safety of you and any loved ones you may have that are considering experimental treatment.

Unless you are left with absolutely no recourse, do not do it.

My academic advisor is a behavioral neuroscientist. One of the things she pointed out to me is that experimental medical procedures (particularly from the pharmaceutical side of things) have a number of "phases", one of which is determining what is the "non-lethal" dosage of a particular treatment in humans.

In other words, they're trying to find out what will and will not kill you.

as opposed to just having open border. Is that what you would like? Let anyone in any time they want? no regulation or proper procedure for entry?

I don't think we should have quotas, that's for sure. Especially when such quotas give preferential treatment to individuals of certain ethnic backgrounds and national origins (i.e., white families from western Europe). This has been the case since the mid-19th century and it is still the case now.

I fully agree with the idea of regulation and proper procedure, but I feel the best way to ensure this is increased spending on law enforcement training, personnel recruitment, and resources. Not building a gigantic wall.

Laterz.

 

[michaeledward]

as opposed to just having open border. Is that what you would like? Let anyone in any time they want? no regulation or proper procedure for entry?

Yes. In my opinion, that is exactly what we should do. It seemed to work pretty good for us for the first 150 years of the republic. A completely open border. Let anyone in, at any time, for any reason. If they come to visit, and decide they want to stay and work; Fine.

As for 'proper procedure', how about they just announce they are here. Maybe they need to check in at a Social Security / Department of Homeland Security / Immigration office - some adminstrative role to count who is here. Perhaps some sort of procedure to give every traveller permission to work in the country - a green card. Something to count them, but not restrict them. No restrictions on what the can do here (outside of other legal rules). No restrictions on how long they can stay here.

Seems like a simple, inexpensive solution to me.

Of course, it doesn't work if we are all afraid of 'The Other'.

 

[Cryozombie]

I fully agree with the idea of regulation and proper procedure, but I feel the best way to ensure this is increased spending on law enforcement training, personnel recruitment, and resources. Not building a gigantic wall.

Laterz.

Are you insane? More Training, sure... but more personell and resources? Give me a break... Our LEO are already being used primarilly as revenue generators for the state, not in the function of serving and protecting... It jerks my chain when a crime is commited and the response from the cops is "we lack the resources/manpower to invest in this" when I see 4-6 squadcars, 2 cops each, being used for Seatbelt enforcement stops... and YES that is a REAL EXAMPLE of what is going on here in Illinois... but thats a whole other thread.

I say Less cops... who are more focused on the good of the community and less on the coffers of their villages.

By the way... I support immigration reform more than I support a fence... but if we aint gonna reform it, we may as well make the crime more difficult. I mean, Mike, and Heretic, would you sell the locks on the doors of your house and car and use the money to reducate criminals? Would it make you safer?

 

[heretic888]

By the way... I support immigration reform more than I support a fence... but if we aint gonna reform it, we may as well make the crime more difficult. I mean, Mike, and Heretic, would you sell the locks on the doors of your house and car and use the money to reducate criminals? Would it make you safer?

No, but I wouldn't spend millions of dollars building a giant fence around my house, either.

 

[michaeledward]

By the way... I support immigration reform more than I support a fence... but if we aint gonna reform it, we may as well make the crime more difficult. I mean, Mike, and Heretic, would you sell the locks on the doors of your house and car and use the money to reducate criminals? Would it make you safer?

Well, let me think about that for a few minutes ...

What criminal ? ---- straw man construction alert.

I am very much in favor of rehabilitation. When rehabilitation is not possible, I am in favor of loss of freedom. When rehabilitation is possible, I recommend loss of property and rehabilitation.

Seems to me, however, that building and operating jails is a big business in this country. There is lots of money to be made in building and operating prisons and housing criminals - especially those non-violent drug offenders. So, I don't think we are going to see much effort toward 'reducation', as you call it. There is not so much money in that.

But, if there weren't any laws prohibiting fellow earthlings from travelling to our fair city, they wouldn't be criminal.

Seems to me that one of the other threads on this board talked about 'hiding our light under a bushel' - (I know I've heard that argument somewhere) - kinda begs the question - why are even trying to be a light on a hill, if we won't let those who need to come here most, come?