New 7 Star Mantis Book

7starmantis

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My Sigung (my teacher's teacher) has just finished the first book in a series of three in which he talks about the principles of mantis fighting and in this book even breaks apart Bung Bo and discusses it. I thought it would be a good read for those interested in mantis and might yield some great discussion here. You can find the book here: http://www.lulu.com/content/110667

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7starmantis

7starmantis

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You should deffinitely check this book out. He really gets into the 12 methods of attack. Really good stuff there.

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jfarnsworth

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7starmantis said:
You should deffinitely check this book out. He really gets into the 12 methods of attack. Really good stuff there.
I know we had our differences in the "other" thread but since we are both down line from the kung-fu line, let's set it aside? :)

What's this about your soft and/or hard principles that is in your system?

Whatcha after in the methods of attack?
Front, rear, left, right, above, and below = directions? - for -
Grabs & tackles, pushes, punches, kicks, hugs & holds, locks & chokes, weapons, or multiples of the above?

I know about our 8 prepatory considerations of combat and our 21 set principles but is this what you had in mind? :asian:
 
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7starmantis

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jfarnsworth said:
I know we had our differences in the "other" thread but since we are both down line from the kung-fu line, let's set it aside? :)
Man, there is nothing to set aside. We may have disagreed in another thread, but everyone disagrees, no offense taken or anything. So dont even worry about it. :)

jfarnsworth said:
What's this about your soft and/or hard principles that is in your system?
Yes, we have basically 12 Soft and 8 Hard principles. However, the key, and also the hardest thing to do, is make these principles work in harmony with each other. Sigung Fogg uses the analogy in his book that its like a doorway. The soft principles are inviting someone through a door and the hard principles are just when he thinks he gaining headway through the door, you slam it shut on him. The invitation is the soft principles while the slamming of the door are the hard principles. For example: Yielding to a punch, using the signature mantis grab to redirect the punch and allow their energy to pass by you and extend themselves is a soft principle. As you do that and you pluck theri punching hand causing them to lean or even fall forward, the fist of your other hand that their face runs into is the hard principle. Thats very understated, but does that make sense? He is going into the soft and hard in forms and application and how to achieve them in his second book. Its supposed to be out by mid august.

jfarnsworth said:
Whatcha after in the methods of attack?
Front, rear, left, right, above, and below = directions? - for -
Grabs & tackles, pushes, punches, kicks, hugs & holds, locks & chokes, weapons, or multiples of the above?
Well, while there is a list of the 12 Keyword formula, its important for us to understand that they are not neccessarily techniques, but rather methods of attack and defense. He breaks all 12 down and discusses them. The first is (ou) hooking. The technique of hooking has many purposes and can be done many ways in our system. So its not just the technique of hooking, but the principle behind hooking. The main reason is to bring the opponent into a "dangerous zone". It can be done with or without the "mantis hand". He has pictures for the different ways it can be done and such in the book. It can be done while adding pressure points to various spots of the body as well. He goes into all of them. The second is (Lou) grabbing, especially downward. So then you can see the you can combine (ou) and (lou) and hook and then grab. Then he goes into why grab, to hold and pull the opponent while striking them.

jfarnsworth said:
I know about our 8 prepatory considerations of combat and our 21 set principles but is this what you had in mind? :asian:
Deffinitely what I had in mind. I just love discussing martial arts and especially mantis. I would be interested to hear your set principles, you have them online somewhere I could see them?

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jfarnsworth

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7starmantis said:
Man, there is nothing to set aside. We may have disagreed in another thread, but everyone disagrees, no offense taken or anything. So dont even worry about it.
:) Thumbs up!

Yes, we have basically 12 Soft and 8 Hard principles. However, the key, and also the hardest thing to do, is make these principles work in harmony with each other. Sigung Fogg uses the analogy in his book that its like a doorway. The soft principles are inviting someone through a door and the hard principles are just when he thinks he gaining headway through the door, you slam it shut on him. The invitation is the soft principles while the slamming of the door are the hard principles. For example: Yielding to a punch, using the signature mantis grab to redirect the punch and allow their energy to pass by you and extend themselves is a soft principle. As you do that and you pluck theri punching hand causing them to lean or even fall forward, the fist of your other hand that their face runs into is the hard principle. Thats very understated, but does that make sense? He is going into the soft and hard in forms and application and how to achieve them in his second book. Its supposed to be out by mid august.

Sounds like you are referring to parrying then to controlling. If you are referring to "gates" I'm not that familiar with those specific terms. I also think you are referring to what we call in our system divert, seize, control. There is a fourth but it is used in terms of weapons defense. We could also look into this further as weapon destruction. Parry, maybe insert nerve strikes to the arm. Go further into contouring the arm then elbow striking against the elbow, pressing check the arm down and blast 'em in the chops. :) I think I'm on the right track of what you are describing.

Well, while there is a list of the 12 Keyword formula, its important for us to understand that they are not neccessarily techniques, but rather methods of attack and defense. He breaks all 12 down and discusses them. The first is (ou) hooking. The technique of hooking has many purposes and can be done many ways in our system. So its not just the technique of hooking, but the principle behind hooking. The main reason is to bring the opponent into a "dangerous zone". It can be done with or without the "mantis hand". He has pictures for the different ways it can be done and such in the book. It can be done while adding pressure points to various spots of the body as well. He goes into all of them. The second is (Lou) grabbing, especially downward. So then you can see the you can combine (ou) and (lou) and hook and then grab. Then he goes into why grab, to hold and pull the opponent while striking them.
We're going to look at this slightly differently and that's just due to style preferences. I'm going to look at "hooking" in groups called methods of execution. The methods include roundhousing, hooking, hammering, thrusting, whipping, slicing, clawing, and lastly the specialized movements. I understand your combinations due to yieldling factors we just have different terms for our set arts. I would also put the grabbing into a checking category. How many ways can you check. That would be my question. Same thing different wording. :asian: Checks can include pressing, grabbing, skipping, contouring, pinning, leg, hugging, cross, open end triangle just to name a few.

Definitely what I had in mind. I just love discussing martial arts and especially mantis. I would be interested to hear your set principles, you have them online somewhere I could see them?
The 8 prepatory considerations are as follows
Acceptance, enviornmental awareness, range, positions, maneuvers, targets, natural weapons, natural defenses. As far as the 21 set principles, I know of them all. Unfortunately I don't recall them in order as they are outlined in our books. If you were to ask me about posture then yes it's one. Coordination is also one as well as the 3 power principles. Since I have switched computers I don't have all of my info. on this one yet.

Next set of questions. :uhyeah:
 
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7starmantis

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jfarnsworth said:
We're going to look at this slightly differently and that's just due to style preferences. I'm going to look at "hooking" in groups called methods of execution. The methods include roundhousing, hooking, hammering, thrusting, whipping, slicing, clawing, and lastly the specialized movements. I understand your combinations due to yieldling factors we just have different terms for our set arts. I would also put the grabbing into a checking category. How many ways can you check. That would be my question. Same thing different wording. :asian: Checks can include pressing, grabbing, skipping, contouring, pinning, leg, hugging, cross, open end triangle just to name a few.
I just wanted to make sure you knew that when I said "hookiing" that doesn't mean a strike or punch. Its a hooking of your opponents punch which moves it off course and even disrupts their balance. Its not hooking as an attack, but hooking your opponents attack using circular motions.

jfarnsworth said:
The 8 prepatory considerations are as follows
Acceptance, enviornmental awareness, range, positions, maneuvers, targets, natural weapons, natural defenses. As far as the 21 set principles, I know of them all. Unfortunately I don't recall them in order as they are outlined in our books. If you were to ask me about posture then yes it's one. Coordination is also one as well as the 3 power principles. Since I have switched computers I don't have all of my info. on this one yet.

Next set of questions. :uhyeah:
Thats interesting. So of the 21 set principles a few are postures & coordination? Thats very core to practicing martial arts, I like that.

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7starmantis said:
I just wanted to make sure you knew that when I said "hookiing" that doesn't mean a strike or punch. Its a hooking of your opponents punch which moves it off course and even disrupts their balance. Its not hooking as an attack, but hooking your opponents attack using circular motions.
I knew what you meant. Let's say. If I was standing left side forward and someone threw a right punch. I could parry with my left hand inward and downward, grab, (yield) then punch with the right hand. That's what I considered your hooking and grabbing. Correct? That's a short, general idea. From here we could get into the body mechanics. Torque, rotation, back up mass, foot maneuvers, angles, and what not.

Thats interesting. So of the 21 set principles a few are postures & coordination? Thats very core to practicing martial arts, I like that.
Posture, balance, relax, speed, accuracy, angles, body alignment, back up mass, economy of motion, timing, telegraphing, coordination, focus, power, torque, body momentum, gravitational marriage, penetration, transition, distance, and cover. Found them for you. This is what we go by.

We can go in detail on any of the above or more. Now hopefully my kenpo people won't get mad at me for posting this info. :)
 

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jfarnsworth said:
Posture, balance, relax, speed, accuracy, angles, body alignment, back up mass, economy of motion, timing, telegraphing, coordination, focus, power, torque, body momentum, gravitational marriage, penetration, transition, distance, and cover. Found them for you. This is what we go by.
This stuff just fascinates me. Could you go into a little more detail on back up mass, penetration, body momentum, and gravitational marriage?
 

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Back up mass - Is one of our 3 main power principles we teach in Kenpo. Back up mass is achieved when you strike on a horizontal plane with your entire body behind the strike. Basically if I left parry and right uppercut with a shuffle forward that's back up mass. My entire mass of my body was behind the strike. When I settled in my stance my strike landed at the same moment at the time of impact.

Gravitational Marriage - Also 1 of the 3 main power principles. Argueably the same as back up mass however this is achieved on the vertical plane. Using gravity to help your striking power going up and down. Let's say, I have you bent over and decided to drop an elbow on your back. My left hand checking at your left shoulder, reach my right arm as high as it can go then lay the whammy :) on the opponent with a right downward elbow while settling in a kneel stance. At this point my entire body mass was behind the elbow delivered to the opponents back. Hence, the marriage with gravity.

Penetration - I'm going to type the small paragraph out of our encyclopedia because it fits better than I can put into my own words.
This involves depth of focus. It is the extension of power beyond the selected target to insure the desired force and to compensate for the distance to be traveled. Basically as Bruce Lee stated. Strike several inches past your target. Gives you depth of penetration

Body momentum - Body weight used to increase the force of your action. It involves the coordination of mind, breath, strength, and body weight so that all forces are moving in harmony in the same direction (directional harmony). There are three basic ways to obtain body momentum. 1. by shuttling forward or reverse on a horizontal plane, thus empoying dimension of depth, 2. by utilizing gravitational marriage on a vertical or diagonal plane, which fulfills the dimension of height, 3. by torqueing the body to create body rotation, thus completeing the dimension of width. All 3 methods of acquiring body momentum can be applied singularly, in partial combination, or when combinbing all 3 methods of body momentum. It is a great contributor to back up mass which places body alignment in proper perspective.

Anymore? Keep 'em coming. :) :uhyeah:

:asian:
 

jfarnsworth

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Thanks,
and it's just Jason.
I'm sure we have more similarities that maybe we could explore. :)
 
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7starmantis

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Gravitational marriage is pretty similar to what we do. We call it "dropping your center", but its basically the same. Its used in attacks, locks, breaks, throws, etc.

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