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Fumanchu

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Quote: " I see where your going with the lever idea, however you don’t have to have your leg behind them in order to catch their center and even throw them, in fact you can throw them backwards with no contact except at the point of the throw with your hands or arms. In that case there would be no lever, you simply need to find their center and get under it. Your not so much putting pressure against their center as you are underneath it, or from either side of it."

Picture a triangle. You’re line of force f is the hypotenuse (the longest side of the triangle). The force pinning the person’s foot down x= f * sin a and the horizontal component of the force is y = f * cos a. accordingly you are getting the person to pivot on their leg and sit into empty space.



Quote: "Ok you may use your footwork to try and break contact, but what I'm saying is that a skilled fighter who trains hard on "feel" and staying in contact or "stuck" regardless of your direction will move with you, they will stay in contact even when you try and break contact. That’s a major principles that’s trained with sticking is how to move with them and stay connected. I'm not saying you will never be able to get away but you can't just decide to break contact and step away, just like you can't decide they aren't going to hit you and stop every attack they throw. You don’t have to be instantaneous, someone with good feel will feel your center or energy moving back sometimes even before your body makes its first moves. You don’t need a new approach to see a new "set of circumstances" you make your own new set of circumstances will maintaining contact. Its simply something you don’t understand."

Like I said before there are no guarantees, although we train to succeed there are times when we fail.

Quote: "So will you answer my question? You said, "If they are better than you, they will beat you". You said that was a mantis principle. Is that one of you guy’s principles?"

Yes if you’re fighting against someone with the strength of Superman + speed of the Flash + cunning of Batman + 100% protective shield of Green Lantern + water breathing ability of Aqua Man (thought I’d cover the base incase you say we’re fighting underwater) then I think you’re screwed. Hopefully the person you fight against does have some weakness you can exploit and that you have a comparative advantage in some department.

Quote: "That’s what I thought. Mantis forms deal with whats in the form. You are creating big holes in the form saying the next move requires something thats not in the form at all. Thats ridiculous. There are no "tactical retreats" in the first line of bung bo, sorry its simply not so. Yes, you need to focus on failed or missed techniques, and bung bo does that, but not on the failed techniques of things that aren't in the form. If the very first strike in bung bo misses or is blocked the next move is still correct, but not if they don’t attack or move forward, if they don’t then you can deviate from the form in a fighting situation and move forward, or move to another attack, but the form deals with whats in the form, you can't add imaginary technique to the form and say they are needed to complete the form."

I’m talking about what you do in application. Bung Bu doesn’t cover basic things that you’d already learned. You seem to disagree with me in the beginning of the paragraph and agree with me in the latter part.

Quote: "True, there isn't anything else to worry about if you knock them out with the first punch, but mantis isn't simply about failing, even if that first punch lands you still follow-up and move in and stick. If they block the first punch you move in and stick as well. You simply don’t stop at one punch regardless of the outcome of it. You should already have made your second or third attack before you even realize if the first punch knocked them out or not."

Sure of course if you can continue landing punches then do so. Mantis form does not teach you to do 10 continuous straight punches does it? But you do that in real life because this is basic technique that you have learned before mantis. Like I said before mantis puts you in better position to do those punches.

Quote: "Its not possible at all, not if your moving back or against your energy. Sure moving to the side or yielding or something is very plausible, but moving forward an then in the middle of that move change and move backwards all in the time it takes their punch to reach you, or actually half the time because they already started it when you decided to move backwards. Thats simply not going to happen, if you think it does, you will be in for a rude awakening. Changing direction is one thing, but your talking about reversing direction, different thing. "

If the way you move is only forward and back then I agree it’s impossible. But you can always determine which parts of your body are moving forward and backwards or remaining stationary in space. So you’re saying that you can change the direction of a committed punch mid stream or modify it to a deflection / hook etc.

Quote: "Yes, the defense to an elbow break like that is yielding at the elbow and using it for a strike, thats why you have to practice that break and understand how to position the arm and apply the pressure and leverage onto the elbow. Your only pulling the wrist towards your chest, the elbow is being pushed outwards. See, this creates an unnatural movement in the elbow joint and with enough pressure or "force" will break. If you seriously think that in your amazingly skilled class the elbow break from that position wouldn't work then your fooling yourself. To say any given technique wont work "in my class" is not only arrogant, but naive. I know your afraid to let anyone know where your located, but if you guys ever invite others to your classes, I would love to come and show you what I mean, its really some great techniques and principles that your missing out on. "

Like I said earlier, you’re assuming that the opponent’s punch is only a punch and can only be a punch. We have learned to adapt our movements in mid stream such that there is a blurr between attack and defence. In fact we don’t think about things as being attack or defence. We just move towards the target. In the first few moves of Bung Bu, your understanding has led to one application where as we can apply this at a strategic level.

Quote: " Simply not true again. You don’t have to stop their attack to avoid getting hit. I don’t know what else to say, thats just incorrect.

Now strategy is not waiting around? What is strategy then? Why is waiting a bad thing? Waiting for a precise moment is wrong, why?"

It’s unlikely there will be a precise moment. Yes, strategy is not waiting around, strategy is about creating your openings, waiting is a bad thing because it is passive and the aggressor will more likely come out on top. No you don’t have to stop their hits but can you avoid all their attacks? If you can, then why are you defending as opposed to attacking. Herein lies the paradox in what you say.

Quote: "Are you saying one of the principles in mantis is to throw the first punch?"

Getting your attack to reach the opponent before he does is a key strategy in mantis. You’re going to have to hit him sometime or other, I think now is a good time.

Quote: "Wrong, the techniques of bung bo are no limited to a specific range or distance. Almost every mantis techniques require closing the gap and sticking. There are closer techniques than others, but bung bo contains some very close techniques. However, lun jeet does have some very close techniques, your right, but its most definitely not dealing with the failure of bung bo! In application every technique is inserted into another technique, every form is inserted into every other form."

I’m talking about the first few moves of Bung Bu. Of course in the latter parts of the form we deal with situations when we’re in close having successfully made our incursions. Laan Dzhaat deals with instances when you have stuffed up big time when you’re in close and there’s no time to use footwork to get away. You seem to agree with the insertion of forms within forms, hard to understand why you omit basic punches in Bung Bu.

Quote: "Anyone can modify the path of their attack in mid stream, but not reverse that path with enough time to avoid a punch that is already halfway to your body. Sorry, thats a matrix move and we aren't living in the matrix."

You don’t need to reverse the path of a punch to become a deflection.

Quote: "The first advantage I see if we are going to play "mine" against "yours" is that mine allows for a much deeper and more applicable fighting techniques. Your relies on failed punches while mine continues regardless of contact or failed punches. Your relies on your own force, while mine relies on the movement of my opponents force or energy. Yours rules out valid mantis techniques because "they wont work in your amazing skilled class". Yours deals with impossible body movement while mine stays in line with human biology. We could do this all day, but this isn't a "me against you" thread. WE are discussing mantis principles, lets not get caught up in being against each other, we should work together as we are both mantis practitioners, correct?"

If my punches are successful then I don’t need to do higher level stuff. It’s just a question of necessity. We assimilate information coming from our opponent as I had mentioned to you before. Sure we use our own force but it does not detract our ability to listen. It’s only impossible if your body movement is inefficient. If you can’t change the direction of a failing punch into some sort of block or deflection then it is very difficult to commit 100% in your attack. You would have to toss up between attack or defence, whereas we can just attack, knowing that defence will happen as and when it is necessary.


 
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7starmantis

7starmantis

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Fumanchu said:
Picture a triangle. Youre line of force f is the hypotenuse (the longest side of the triangle). The force pinning the persons foot down x= f * sin a and the horizontal component of the force is y = f * cos a. accordingly you are getting the person to pivot on their leg and sit into empty space.
Classic. :rolleyes: What you said here makes no sense though. I'm not arguing your theory with you; I'm saying your theory is wrong. There need not be any lever at all. A throw is not "getting the opponent to sit in empty space". There are throws from all directions, and sweeps, and etc. In fact many throws require little contact at all. Youre limiting your throw to only one situational instance.

Fumanchu said:
Yes if youre fighting against someone with the strength of Superman + speed of the Flash + cunning of Batman + 100% protective shield of Green Lantern + water breathing ability of Aqua Man (thought Id cover the base incase you say were fighting underwater) then I think youre screwed. Hopefully the person you fight against does have some weakness you can exploit and that you have a comparative advantage in some department.
Wow. I'm not sure what to say but wow. Oh, I know, what does that have to do with what I asked? You said one of the mantis principles is, "If they are better than you, they will beat you". Are you saying the only person better than you is this group of superheroes? Youre like going off the chart. However, there will be people out there that are better than you, and you will not have a "comparative advantage" over them. Like it or not, thats the cold hard facts.

Fumanchu said:
Im talking about what you do in application. Bung Bu doesnt cover basic things that youd already learned. You seem to disagree with me in the beginning of the paragraph and agree with me in the latter part.
NO, I seem to disagree with you in all aspects of the paragraph. The reasoning behind training forms is to learn applications to use in fighting. In a fight you dont simply play bung bo, but in reality you could. Your taking away the ability to move smoothly from one technique to the next in the form. Many people believe that forms were the "catalog" of a system's technique and moves. If thats true how in the world could bung bo have been passed down if it contains imaginary punches and techniques that aren't done in the form? Your separating the form into choppy separate smaller "forms". The form should move smoothly from one technique to the next in the form, your taking that away from it by adding in invisible techniques and failed punches that you would have to do before moving to the next move. Yes, you should be able to deviate from the form at any given moment into a different technique (be it from another form or not) but a form is a form, you dont enter non-existent moves into the form to try and show each time you could deviate. That should come in your fighting. How often do you guys fight? I dont mean point sparring, but true fighting.

Fumanchu said:
Sure of course if you can continue landing punches then do so. Mantis form does not teach you to do 10 continuous straight punches does it? But you do that in real life because this is basic technique that you have learned before mantis. Like I said before mantis puts you in better position to do those punches.
No, mantis does not teach doing10 continuous straight punches, and NO I do not do that in real life. That is simply not kung fu. I fight the exact same way I play forms and train, I dont have a different "style" of fighting and then a different "style" of doing forms. No, I never learned to do 10 continuous straight punches in any style, basic or not, but then again, I've only studied CMA in my lifetime. Your view of mantis is a warped one that still allows for your past bad habits. Thats not kung fu.

Fumanchu said:
If the way you move is only forward and back then I agree its impossible. But you can always determine which parts of your body are moving forward and backwards or remaining stationary in space. So youre saying that you can change the direction of a committed punch mid stream or modify it to a deflection / hook etc.
Here we go again, your changing what you said. You originally stated that you could hop backwards into the second move of bung bo from being in the middle of a punch and realizing that the opponents already launched punch would reach you first. That is what I said was impossible, and now I guess you agree with me. Great. I also said it IS possible to change directions in mid attack, but not reverse directions. Do you even read my posts anymore?

Fumanchu said:
Like I said earlier, youre assuming that the opponents punch is only a punch and can only be a punch. We have learned to adapt our movements in mid stream such that there is a blurr between attack and defence. In fact we dont think about things as being attack or defence. We just move towards the target. In the first few moves of Bung Bu, your understanding has led to one application where as we can apply this at a strategic level.
Where in the "wide wide world of sports" did you get that from? I'm not assuming the opponent's attack can only be a punch. Thats ridiculous; I didn't say anything even remotely close to that. Their attack can be anything they want it to be. I don't even understand your logic, what are you even saying? It matters not what their attack is, you adapt to it. The elbow break in that spot can be done on a variety of attacks. sure there are going to be attacks that that particular technique wont work on, thats why we have other techniques, and feel. I wish I was so amazingly skilled that I didn't have to think, train, or practice defensive moves either, but I haven't reached that plateau just yet, I still have to learn and practice defensive techniques. I wish during a fight all I had to worry about was attacking and defense would just happen "as and when" it is needed, but thats simply not how our bodies work.

Lets get one thing straight, we aren't just talking about MY understanding of bung bo, but the understanding of many, many mantis practitioners from around the globe. I dont pretend to yet have the skill and knowledge to deviate from what my sifu is teaching me. His skill is still far past my own and so I listen to him and learn from him. I trust him 100% so if he tells me to do something a specific way and I dont understand why, I still do it, because I know he is teaching me and he knows much more than I. I may be blind to why he said something, but if doing it will increase my skill to his level at some point, you bet I'm doing it. "My" understanding has led to a myriad of options at that point, but the form itself is dealing with what I mentioned. Thats why there are more than one form in the mantis system, you can deviate in a real fight situation, but you can also continue the form as its practiced. It makes no sense to have the form chopped up into pieces that aren't accessible from one to the other without invisible, imaginary, failed techniques in the middle.

Fumanchu said:
Its unlikely there will be a precise moment. Yes, strategy is not waiting around, strategy is about creating your openings, waiting is a bad thing because it is passive and the aggressor will more likely come out on top. No you dont have to stop their hits but can you avoid all their attacks? If you can, then why are you defending as opposed to attacking. Herein lies the paradox in what you say.
What are you talking about? Its illogical to say you should never wait for an opening. You must wait sometimes to find the right time to attack, or steal their attack, or throw, sweep, etc. I'm not saying dont try to open up points of attack, but forcing something that doesn't belong can get you killed. Literally. Passive? Ever heard of Passive-Aggressive behavior? Why do you believe the aggressor will likely come out on top? Also, why couldn't you avoid all their attacks? Your taking away viable options because you just dont believe you can do it. I'm not saying you could enter a fight and not get hit, but I'm not saying its impossible either. Whats more practical is avoiding hits and finding the opening you need to attack. I think you meant to use another word other than Paradox. Your disagreeing with me, correct? Your assuming that avoiding a hit means your open to attack, thats not always the case.

Fumanchu said:
Getting your attack to reach the opponent before he does is a key strategy in mantis. Youre going to have to hit him sometime or other, I think now is a good time.
Man, you dont like answering questions do you? Would you mind posting a yes or no? Is a principle of mantis to throw the first punch? Also you incorrect about the key of mantis is reaching your opponent before he reaches you. Thats more of a race without your beloved "strategy".

Fumanchu said:
Im talking about the first few moves of Bung Bu. Of course in the latter parts of the form we deal with situations when were in close having successfully made our incursions. Laan Dzhaat deals with instances when you have stuffed up big time when youre in close and theres no time to use footwork to get away. You seem to agree with the insertion of forms within forms, hard to understand why you omit basic punches in Bung Bu.
Oh now your talking about only the first few moves? Maybe you should have said that. I omit nothing from bung bo, I simply do not add invisible technique to bung bo. The first two moves flow smoothly from one to the next without the insertion of failed or otherwise imaginary, basic or otherwise, techniques.

Fumanchu said:
If my punches are successful then I dont need to do higher level stuff. Its just a question of necessity. We assimilate information coming from our opponent as I had mentioned to you before. Sure we use our own force but it does not detract our ability to listen. Its only impossible if your body movement is inefficient. If you cant change the direction of a failing punch into some sort of block or deflection then it is very difficult to commit 100% in your attack. You would have to toss up between attack or defence, whereas we can just attack, knowing that defence will happen as and when it is necessary.
May I ask a question? How do you know it doesn't detract form your ability to listen? I'm not saying your wrong, just curious as to what you base your belief on. We addressed this already; you are changing what you said. You were talking about going from front straight punch into a backwards hop, not a deflection or redirection. Oh, and we covered the amazing defensive prowess of your school, I wish I was that way, oh wait, thats not possible you HAVE to train and practice defensive techniques.

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Fumanchu

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Quote:"Classic. :rolleyes: What you said here makes no sense though. I'm not arguing your theory with you; I'm saying your theory is wrong. There need not be any lever at all. A throw is not "getting the opponent to sit in empty space". There are throws from all directions, and sweeps, and etc. In fact many throws require little contact at all. Youre limiting your throw to only one situational instance."

There are many different angles and situations where sweeps and throw can arise. Small force moving heavy object, there is leverage involved -it is a matter of defining where the "traingles" are as opposed to arguing their possible existance.

Quote:"Wow. I'm not sure what to say but wow. Oh, I know, what does that have to do with what I asked? You said one of the mantis principles is, "If they are better than you, they will beat you". Are you saying the only person better than you is this group of superheroes? Youre like going off the chart. However, there will be people out there that are better than you, and you will not have a "comparative advantage" over them. Like it or not, thats the cold hard facts."

No what I'm saying is we're not having to deal with superhuman powers so there is a chance of finding your comparative advantage. But again that is not certain. Likewise if someone has an absolute advantage you lose.

Quote:"NO, I seem to disagree with you in all aspects of the paragraph. The reasoning behind training forms is to learn applications to use in fighting. In a fight you dont simply play bung bo, but in reality you could. Your taking away the ability to move smoothly from one technique to the next in the form. Many people believe that forms were the "catalog" of a system's technique and moves. If thats true how in the world could bung bo have been passed down if it contains imaginary punches and techniques that aren't done in the form? Your separating the form into choppy separate smaller "forms". The form should move smoothly from one technique to the next in the form, your taking that away from it by adding in invisible techniques and failed punches that you would have to do before moving to the next move. Yes, you should be able to deviate from the form at any given moment into a different technique (be it from another form or not) but a form is a form, you dont enter non-existent moves into the form to try and show each time you could deviate. That should come in your fighting. How often do you guys fight? I dont mean point sparring, but true fighting."

If we're taking about performing the routine in a sequence then yes, it moves smoothly from one move to another. In application bung bu is not done as a continuous sequence but its broken down into the various options and inserted into basic techniques. We put on protective gear and spar as part of our training.

Quote:"No, mantis does not teach doing10 continuous straight punches, and NO I do not do that in real life. That is simply not kung fu. I fight the exact same way I play forms and train, I dont have a different "style" of fighting and then a different "style" of doing forms. No, I never learned to do 10 continuous straight punches in any style, basic or not, but then again, I've only studied CMA in my lifetime. Your view of mantis is a warped one that still allows for your past bad habits. Thats not kung fu."

Why is continuous punching not kung fu? Its strange that you limit yourself as to what you can and cannot do.

Quote:"Where in the "wide wide world of sports" did you get that from? I'm not assuming the opponent's attack can only be a punch. Thats ridiculous; I didn't say anything even remotely close to that. Their attack can be anything they want it to be. I don't even understand your logic, what are you even saying? It matters not what their attack is, you adapt to it. The elbow break in that spot can be done on a variety of attacks. sure there are going to be attacks that that particular technique wont work on, thats why we have other techniques, and feel. I wish I was so amazingly skilled that I didn't have to think, train, or practice defensive moves either, but I haven't reached that plateau just yet, I still have to learn and practice defensive techniques. I wish during a fight all I had to worry about was attacking and defense would just happen "as and when" it is needed, but thats simply not how our bodies work."

You don't have to be amazingly skilled having to think only about attack and defence is the natural fall back. This is what mantis is teaching you from bung bu level. That's how we train right from the beginning. If you don't have this skill how can you apply laan dzeet?

Quote:"Here we go again, your changing what you said. You originally stated that you could hop backwards into the second move of bung bo from being in the middle of a punch and realizing that the opponents already launched punch would reach you first. That is what I said was impossible, and now I guess you agree with me. Great. I also said it IS possible to change directions in mid attack, but not reverse directions. Do you even read my posts anymore?"

Your arm's going forward but you've kick your right leg which is in the empty stance backwards thereby creating more distance between your body and the opponent's punch. You do this about 45 degrees from their line to increase the chances of them missing. You also convert your punch into a rolling down arm with deflects the punch. I didn't think I had to go through and explain the process to you step by step.

Quote:"What are you talking about? Its illogical to say you should never wait for an opening. You must wait sometimes to find the right time to attack, or steal their attack, or throw, sweep, etc. I'm not saying dont try to open up points of attack, but forcing something that doesn't belong can get you killed. Literally. Passive? Ever heard of Passive-Aggressive behavior? Why do you believe the aggressor will likely come out on top? Also, why couldn't you avoid all their attacks? Your taking away viable options because you just dont believe you can do it. I'm not saying you could enter a fight and not get hit, but I'm not saying its impossible either. Whats more practical is avoiding hits and finding the opening you need to attack. I think you meant to use another word other than Paradox. Your disagreeing with me, correct? Your assuming that avoiding a hit means your open to attack, thats not always the case."

I don't see a good strategy as waiting around. You are trying to find opportunities to attack the opponent and a sweep might present itself, as opposed to waiting around until you can sweep. Not easy to avoid continuous hits consistently becase the oponent is trying to hit you. Should be trying to stop them from attacking as soon as possible.

Quote: "Oh now your talking about only the first few moves? Maybe you should have said that. I omit nothing from bung bo, I simply do not add invisible technique to bung bo. The first two moves flow smoothly from one to the next without the insertion of failed or otherwise imaginary, basic or otherwise, techniques."

So far in bung bu we only covered the opening moves.

Quote:"May I ask a question? How do you know it doesn't detract form your ability to listen? I'm not saying your wrong, just curious as to what you base your belief on. We addressed this already; you are changing what you said. You were talking about going from front straight punch into a backwards hop, not a deflection or redirection. Oh, and we covered the amazing defensive prowess of your school, I wish I was that way, oh wait, thats not possible you HAVE to train and practice defensive techniques."

Because you do the move with not much force and do with with much force. You're not using the same muscles for listening as for delivering power - they are independent. We defend when our attacks get interrupted. That's how we practice our defensive techniques having to attack a target full force many times and randomly the training partner will throw in something in which we'll have to deal with - sometimes before we attack, somethimes duing the attack sometimes after we'd hit the target.
 
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7starmantis

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Fumanchu said:
There are many different angles and situations where sweeps and throw can arise. Small force moving heavy object, there is leverage involved -it is a matter of defining where the "traingles" are as opposed to arguing their possible existance.
I dont even know what to say to this. I allways thought mantis and even kung fu was circular in principle, not triangular. I can't begin to make you understand what I'm talking about, its just not happening.

Fumanchu said:
No what I'm saying is we're not having to deal with superhuman powers so there is a chance of finding your comparative advantage. But again that is not certain. Likewise if someone has an absolute advantage you lose.
You just keep watering down your kung fu with "advantages" and "chance" and "failure" and "zones" and aggressiveness". Your idea of kung fu is just very different from mine, thats all. Oh, and someone having an advantage over you regardless of how much doesn't mean you will loose.

Fumanchu said:
If we're taking about performing the routine in a sequence then yes, it moves smoothly from one move to another. In application bung bu is not done as a continuous sequence but its broken down into the various options and inserted into basic techniques. We put on protective gear and spar as part of our training.
Your not even staying consistant in your own statements. Now its performed as a form in one conintuous movement? I thought you had to insert failed attacks? The set very well could be used as the form in a true application situation, dont rule out parts of your training. I dont see why you feel the need to break down this more advanced form and apply it to you "more basic" techniques. So you guys never really "fight", but just sparr. I understand now more of how your training is.

Fumanchu said:
Why is continuous punching not kung fu? Its strange that you limit yourself as to what you can and cannot do.
Um, its not. Who said continuous punching isn't kung fu? Man, you really have to start reading my posts! While we are on the subject of reading, it seems your ideas of kung fu are warped. You should pick up a copy of Adam Hsu's book, "The Sword Polisher's Record: The Way of Kung Fu". He can explain it much better than I can.

Fumanchu said:
You don't have to be amazingly skilled having to think only about attack and defence is the natural fall back. This is what mantis is teaching you from bung bu level. That's how we train right from the beginning. If you don't have this skill how can you apply laan dzeet?
I dont even know what this is saying. :idunno: What skill? I can't understand what you wrote, it doesn't make sense to me.

Fumanchu said:
Your arm's going forward but you've kick your right leg which is in the empty stance backwards thereby creating more distance between your body and the opponent's punch. You do this about 45 degrees from their line to increase the chances of them missing. You also convert your punch into a rolling down arm with deflects the punch. I didn't think I had to go through and explain the process to you step by step.
I know nothing of "empty stance" but I do know something about generating power in a punch, and "kicking" your back leg backwards while trying to deliver a powerful punch is sucking energy and power from your attack. Also, I'd love to see your amazingly fast skills, because thats alot to do in the piece of a second before their allready launched attack hits you. Yes you have to go by step by step for me, because that is so completely wrong and opposite of kung fu principles. Here you go again with "chances" and such. I choose to train very different from you I guess.

Fumanchu said:
I don't see a good strategy as waiting around. You are trying to find opportunities to attack the opponent and a sweep might present itself, as opposed to waiting around until you can sweep. Not easy to avoid continuous hits consistently becase the oponent is trying to hit you. Should be trying to stop them from attacking as soon as possible.
Thats fine, maybe you should ask your teacher, or someone more skilled than yourself. It seems you only use or accept things that you yourself understand, and without know ing the mantis system completely, how is it you judge so many things by yourself? Nevermind. An attack or "seep" may present itself and it may not, you can't make the sweep work, it has to be at the right time...thus making you wait for it. Nevermind, I'm done, I can't make you understand.

Fumanchu said:
Quote:"May I ask a question? How do you know it doesn't detract form your ability to listen? I'm not saying your wrong, just curious as to what you base your belief on. We addressed this already; you are changing what you said. You were talking about going from front straight punch into a backwards hop, not a deflection or redirection. Oh, and we covered the amazing defensive prowess of your school, I wish I was that way, oh wait, thats not possible you HAVE to train and practice defensive techniques."

Because you do the move with not much force and do with with much force. You're not using the same muscles for listening as for delivering power - they are independent. We defend when our attacks get interrupted. That's how we practice our defensive techniques having to attack a target full force many times and randomly the training partner will throw in something in which we'll have to deal with - sometimes before we attack, somethimes duing the attack sometimes after we'd hit the target.
What? Again, total nonsense to me, that makes no sense even as a sentance. I'm sorry, there is nothing else I can say here. We practice and train very different things. I guess I can see now why you were reluctant to mention your sifu's name. Good luck in your training, I wish you well, there isn't much else I can say.

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-Okay, I have been following this thread since the beginning, and I think perhaps its time to call it quits. For one thing, it feels like its going around in circles. Another is that it seems to have diverged greatly from the original intent of the thread itself, and that is of Praying Mantis being the complete package. Not that I have any say in how things should be run here on MartialTalk.com, but as a wannabe mediator and student of Praying Mantis, I do think maybe this line of discussion, at least for now, has come to an end. Though if anybody has anything useful to contribute, hey go for it. Though this thread has provided much to think about, which I thank both 7* and Fumanchu.


A---)
 
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Fumanchu

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Quote:"I dont even know what to say to this. I allways thought mantis and even kung fu was circular in principle, not triangular. I can't begin to make you understand what I'm talking about, its just not happening."

The movements are actually sperical because you're covering a 3 dimensions as opposed to be a circle which is 2D. That's the path your moves should trace - but an any instant you can break the vectors down into triangles.

Quote:"You just keep watering down your kung fu with "advantages" and "chance" and "failure" and "zones" and aggressiveness". Your idea of kung fu is just very different from mine, thats all. Oh, and someone having an advantage over you regardless of how much doesn't mean you will loose."

I didn't say advantage..... I said absolute advantage. There's a differnence.

Quote:"Your not even staying consistant in your own statements. Now its performed as a form in one conintuous movement? I thought you had to insert failed attacks? The set very well could be used as the form in a true application situation, dont rule out parts of your training. I dont see why you feel the need to break down this more advanced form and apply it to you "more basic" techniques. So you guys never really "fight", but just sparr. I understand now more of how your training is."

I haven't been inconsistent. There's a difference between performing the form as a solo exercise compared to using the form as a principal for fighting.

Quote:"Um, its not. Who said continuous punching isn't kung fu? Man, you really have to start reading my posts! While we are on the subject of reading, it seems your ideas of kung fu are warped. You should pick up a copy of Adam Hsu's book, "The Sword Polisher's Record: The Way of Kung Fu". He can explain it much better than I can."

Well I didn't say this. It is you who said that - "No, mantis does not teach doing10 continuous straight punches, and NO I do not do that in real life. That is simply not kung fu." Yes I'm aware of the book.

Quote:"I know nothing of "empty stance" but I do know something about generating power in a punch, and "kicking" your back leg backwards while trying to deliver a powerful punch is sucking energy and power from your attack. Also, I'd love to see your amazingly fast skills, because thats alot to do in the piece of a second before their allready launched attack hits you. Yes you have to go by step by step for me, because that is so completely wrong and opposite of kung fu principles. Here you go again with "chances" and such. I choose to train very different from you I guess."

Yes, it's alot to do in an instant isn't it come to think of it. Actually it's not that much - as it is only in Bung Bu level. later on we do even more in an instant. Even so, we acknowledge that we are not 100% protected - there is always an element of chance.

Quote:"Thats fine, maybe you should ask your teacher, or someone more skilled than yourself. It seems you only use or accept things that you yourself understand, and without know ing the mantis system completely, how is it you judge so many things by yourself? Nevermind. An attack or "seep" may present itself and it may not, you can't make the sweep work, it has to be at the right time...thus making you wait for it. Nevermind, I'm done, I can't make you understand."

So are you going to wait around for the oppoerunity to sweep if and when it presents itself or do what is necessary at that point in time? We do the latter instead of waiting around.

Quote:"What? Again, total nonsense to me, that makes no sense even as a sentance. I'm sorry, there is nothing else I can say here. We practice and train very different things. I guess I can see now why you were reluctant to mention your sifu's name. Good luck in your training, I wish you well, there isn't much else I can say."

Which part is nonesense? Could you tell me how you train your defenses?
 
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7starmantis

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Fumanchu, we have run out of discussion. There isn't anything left to discuss, we are simply disagreeing over the same things now. I enjoy discussing mantis principles, but we have nothing in common to discuss. Our principles are as different as night and day. I'm having a hard time even following your posts now, so I think its a good time to just agree to disagree. If you are ever in east texas, I leave you an open invitation to look me up and do some training.

Good luck in your training.

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The fact that we disagree alot about many things would make the discussion worthwhile. At least you can see how someone else trains. But if you don't want to discuss anymore that's also fine by me.
 
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7starmantis

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Its not that I dont want to discuss anymore, its that we have discussed all that we can. What else can we discuss that isn't something allready said, or just arguing "my point" over "your point" ? Its like your trying to hide things about your training, and I dont feel that makes it an equal dicussion.

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Fumanchu

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We can pick a technique or a move and take it from there or we xan carry on from where we'd left off - no doubt we'll stumble across other things. I haven't planned this conversation in advance rather i've been going with the flow.

Quote:"Its like your trying to hide things about your training, and I dont feel that makes it an equal dicussion."

I haven't been hiding things about my training, why would you think that? This is what I said earlier - You're not using the same muscles for listening as for delivering power - they are independent. We defend when our attacks get interrupted. That's how we practice our defensive techniques having to attack a target full force many times and randomly the training partner will throw in something in which we'll have to deal with - sometimes before we attack, sometimes duing the attack sometimes after we'd hit the target.

.... to which you said it was nonesense. Not that I mind that you disagree totally, but that's different from saying that I'm hiding things from you.

Then I saked you how you practice your defences to which you didn't reply.
 
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There are simply many questions I have asked that you ignore, or refuse to answer. With that going on, we cant have an honest and intelligent debate. First and foremost is your refusal to give any information regarding your teacher, school, or lineage. That is important now because Im to the point where Im thinking I should just write you off. Youve expressed ideas and principles so different and even in some cases opposite from established mantis principles that it sounds like your just making them up. If you could show your lineage or who your teacher is, that may validate your beliefs or opinions. Of course it might not validate them, but it would at least validate your training, which is something in question here. As to the other unanswered questions.



Why do you believe the aggressor will likely come out on top? Also, why couldn't you avoid all their attacks?



Many people believe that forms were the "catalog" of a system's technique and moves. If thats true how in the world could bung bo have been passed down if it contains imaginary punches and techniques that aren't done in the form?



Are you saying one of the principles in mantis is to throw the first punch?



What is strategy then? Why is waiting a bad thing? Waiting for a precise moment is wrong, why?



You said, "If they are better than you, they will beat you". You said that was a mantis principle. Is that one of you guys principles?



Those are just some of the questions I have asked that I didnt get a response to at all, let alone an answer to. If you can answer some of those questions, we will have something to discuss, but without those answers, we have nothing left to discuss.



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Fumanchu

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Quote:" Why do you believe the aggressor will likely come out on top? Also, why couldn't you avoid all their attacks?"

Because the aggressor is attacking and unless you can stop or slow down his momentum by being aggressive yourself, there isn’t much that can slow him down unless of course he runs out of steam. There are a few cases in history - Battle of Waterloo and the fight between Mohammad Ali and I can’t remember his name where the defensive team / person won. But these are exceptions rather than the rule. Why can’t I avoid every single attack. At least I don’t think I can because if I were that good, I wouldn’t have to be the one having to defend. If they’re at the skill level as you are, quite a few attacks will get through.

Quote: "Many people believe that forms were the "catalog" of a system's technique and moves. If that’s true how in the world could bung bo have been passed down if it contains imaginary punches and techniques that aren't done in the form?"

They aren’t imaginary punches and techniques. The form puts you in a position to do those basic techniques. Bung Bu is not taught at a beginners level, hence it doesn’t have many punch and kicks. It contains strategy to put you in a better position to do basic techniques. Yes, it is a catalog of the system’s technique for that particular level of training.

Quote: "Are you saying one of the principles in mantis is to throw the first punch?"

You move when you sense your opponent starting to move. You try to reach your opponent before he reaches you. It may end up to becoming a punch or some other movement that stops his movement as early as possible.

Quote: "What is strategy then? Why is waiting a bad thing? Waiting for a precise moment is wrong, why?"

Strategy means a way of doing things. Waiting is a bad thing, because in a fight the possible paths over time is quite chaotic. What I mean by that is, small changes in angle / force etc. can lead to large changes in the following sequence of moves. Hence it is quite unpredictable what moves you’re going to use next. So I don’t see a way of waiting to use a move. Let’s take the leg sweep for example, I don’t know that I’m doing a leg sweep until the moment arrives - hence I haven’t waited for that moment, it is spontaneous.

Quote: "You said, "If they are better than you, they will beat you". You said that was a mantis principle. Is that one of you guy’s principles?"

I said if your opponent is better than you in an absolute sense you’ll lose if the objectives are the same (eg last man standing). However, you might only have to slow him down or stay alive long enough till help arrives or get to an escape route or make yourself a difficult enough target that he loses interest. In these cases, your kung fu could still be useful. In this case the stronger opponent wants to play "last man standing", but you refuse to play his game. I see that as gaining a comparative edge by not playing his game, but by playing a game that is to your strength. That's how we train. It is from bung bu strategy of how we insert and retreat if necessary.

Quote: "Those are just some of the questions I have asked that I didn’t get a response to at all, let alone an answer to. If you can answer some of those questions, we will have something to discuss, but without those answers, we have nothing left to discuss."

I thought I had already answered your questions earlier. Hopefully this time you’ll find the answers clearer.


 
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7starmantis said:
There are simply many questions I have asked that you ignore, or refuse to answer. With that going on, we cant have an honest and intelligent debate. First and foremost is your refusal to give any information regarding your teacher, school, or lineage. That is important now because Im to the point where Im thinking I should just write you off. Youve expressed ideas and principles so different and even in some cases opposite from established mantis principles that it sounds like your just making them up. If you could show your lineage or who your teacher is, that may validate your beliefs or opinions. Of course it might not validate them, but it would at least validate your training, which is something in question here.
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-I'm only going to ask one question of Fumanchu: what is the style of your school? I don't expect an answer, cause all I have seen from you so far is a lot of beating around the bush. 7Star has done more than meet the challenge of this "discussion" thread, and, personally, I think its a little disrespectful to carry on as you have. There is so much beauty to Praying Mantis, it is just wasteful to have a discussion about it that leads nowhere. I would love to know more about what you study, perhaps you could talk about other forms, perhaps from other styles? Or maybe you could post a new topic for the CMA section, something else that could be discussed? Anything on Kung-Fu in general you want to talk about?


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Darksoul

That's 4 questions I've counted plus a couple of comments you made about me. I'll answer the first one.

The style we train is 7 star praying mantis but I would like to ask you one question, what aspect of what I said do you consider beating around the bush?

As for 7starmantis's comments, he's free to make the comments and input he has, neither any of us nor you are oblidged to do more. I have been critical of some of his comments on the system and he has of mine. It hasn't been a question of respect. I see the opportunity of getting an idea of how someone else from the otherside of the world trains is a gain in my books.

I think mantis is beautiful in its efficiency in dealing with hostile opponents as it was the design of the style. 7starmantis and I were just discussing our apporaches to training and how we use the mantis system. On the contrary, we have not set out any goals as to where we intend to take this discussion. If there was an intended direction - it was not something that was communicated to me.
 
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So I guess I can just stop expecting an answer or even notice of my last question?

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I have not got any feed back to the answers I provided to your questions so I take it that you understand what i'm saying.

I do have one question for you. Describe the ways in which you practice your defensive techniques?
 
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You can't really be that daft? Or really believe that I'm just that stupid can you?

Your really going to play the ignore my question completely game?

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Are u blind?

Post 12-13-2004 10:39 AM: your questions.

Post 12-13-2004 09:34 PM: My answers.
 
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