Nerves / adrenaline? Psychological? Advice please

[Chris Parker]

I think the only part we really don't agree is on the "slower" part. An adrenaline dump will make someone "dumber", in the sense that the higher brain functions (conscious decision making, ability to form sentences etc) will be severly limited, and make someone "less capable" in that the fine motor abilities that many arts have in their teachings will also be unavailable under an large adrenaline dump.

All of this is because adrenaline and it's associated effects are based around essential survival skills/abilities, where (biologically, when escaping from the allegorical sabre-tooth tiger for example) what is required is speed, strength, and focus. In order to give focus, distracting aspects (the conscious mind "chatter" amongst other things) are taken away, as well as other aspects being heightened (such as a great focus on movement in your vision, although your vision also tunnels to focus on the immediate percieved danger in front).

When it comes to "slower", though, that kind of defeats the purpose of what the adrenaline is there for. It is a survival mechanism, and we wouldn't have survived very long if, as soon as we were in danger, we slowed down, couldn't reason or think, and lost the ability to perform actions.

 

[Thesemindz]

I think the only part we really don't agree is on the "slower" part. An adrenaline dump will make someone "dumber", in the sense that the higher brain functions (conscious decision making, ability to form sentences etc) will be severly limited, and make someone "less capable" in that the fine motor abilities that many arts have in their teachings will also be unavailable under an large adrenaline dump.

...

When it comes to "slower", though, that kind of defeats the purpose of what the adrenaline is there for. It is a survival mechanism, and we wouldn't have survived very long if, as soon as we were in danger, we slowed down, couldn't reason or think, and lost the ability to perform actions.

When I've experienced this effect in the past, it did make me faster. But if I didn't use that energy quickly, then I began to get lightheaded and clumsy, and my actions became sloppy and more difficult to control.

The adrenaline dump is not an isolated event. It takes place within a delicate chemical system which is constantly being re-regulated to account for changes in environment and intake. And while it may initially give you a burst of speed, or heighten your senses, or decrease your ability to feel pain, those chemicals will also cause you to crash within a matter of minutes, or even seconds, depending on how the situation evolves.

My point isn't so much that adrenaline dump isn't a powerful evolutionary tool, only that it has a variety of secondary effects which can even be detrimental to your ability to fight, which is what I teach my students. Many things which helped the human animal survive long enough to build cities are detrimental, and even dangerous, to the human in his modern habitat.

I'd rather train myself to maintain calm as long as possible in a situation, and be experienced enough to handle the drugs when they kick in, then rely on them to save me. I'm not saying that's what you're teaching, only describing what I teach.

I don't think we're really in that much disagreement here, I just thought it was intereting phrasing.


-Rob

 

[Chris Parker]

No, you're pretty much describing what we teach as well. We teach that the initial "dump" will have the "faster, stronger, feel less pain (for the attacker as well, by the way...)" effect, but we also talk about the endorphin release afterwards, the groggy effect that that can have (I typically use a famous story about Tokugawa Ieyasu there, which gives rise to the Japanese proverb "After the battle, tighten your helmet-strings"), and so on. And our training is geared towards being aware of these things, and then striving to supress the effects to remain calm (a mushin attitude, in Japanese systems) so that you can stay in control during the situation. So I think we are both simply describing different stages in the event. Cool.

One of the main reasons we emphasise the early aspect (the initial dump, resulting in the "faster, stronger" aspect) is that the adrenaline and it's associated chemical releases go to the fast-twitch fibres, getting you ready for immediate action. This results in the "nervous" feeling many get, the trembling hands that many associate with fear, and so on, so to alleviate the belief that it is actually fear when it is just the natural effects of adrenaline on the body, we explain what is actually going on.

 

[Vulcan]

A lot of responses further illustrate the problems and effects of the adrenal gland.


But none state the obvious, natural and direct way of controlling adrenaline:


zazen meditation.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm, not so sure that I agree with you there... for one thing, control has been mentioned a few times, as well as education on what the effects of adrenaline really are, by myself and others (the mushin state refered to in the post directly above).

As well as that, zazen mediation? Not really ideal in the event of an adrenal surge.... "Za" refers to seated, for one thing, "zen" simply refers to meditation itself, and these are methods of gaining mental discipline, control, and more. But if you feel an adrenal surge when someone starts getting violent, sitting down and closing your eyes isn't exactly what I would advise....

Oh, and I rarely do this, especially with someone new, but you are just trolling, aren't you? I mean, you list your "primary art and experience" as 8th Level Vulcan Logic...

 

[Vulcan]

Hmm, not so sure that I agree with you there... for one thing, control has been mentioned a few times, as well as education on what the effects of adrenaline really are, by myself and others (the mushin state refered to in the post directly above).

As well as that, zazen mediation? Not really ideal in the event of an adrenal surge.... "Za" refers to seated, for one thing, "zen" simply refers to meditation itself, and these are methods of gaining mental discipline, control, and more. But if you feel an adrenal surge when someone starts getting violent, sitting down and closing your eyes isn't exactly what I would advise....

Oh, and I rarely do this, especially with someone new, but you are just trolling, aren't you? I mean, you list your "primary art and experience" as 8th Level Vulcan Logic...

1. I specifically mean that constant meditation will help you control yourself in other situations. It's much easier to master the mind at rest, so yes...by sitting.

2. No, I'm not trolling at all. I just express my primary art (temperance of the mind through objective reasoning and logic) through a well known fictional symbol, that of the Vulcan adept. I don't take myself so seriously as to feel the need to impress anyone on the internet. If you take me as a troll, you will be disappointed as I do have a lot to offer.

But let's not focus on me and derail the thread. My apologies to the OP. Carry on...

 

[Chris Parker]

Frankly, I wait to be convinced. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Zazen is seated mediation, done at a calm time, in a calm place, with no adrenal aspect whatsoever. So it is hardly the "obvious, natural, and direct way of controlling adrenline". The obvious, natural, and direct way is to experience an adrenal dump, and practice supressing it. And that is not zazen. Again, while zazen has many benefits (we use it a lot ourselves), it is not designed to control adrenaline. A mushin mindset, on the other hand, is.

As for your "not needing to impress anyone on the internet", this isn't anything to do with impressing anyone, but this is a martial arts forum. By letting people know what you actually train in, and how experienced you are, will let us know where you are coming from. Basically, saying that your system is "7th level Vulcan logic" would get you laughed off most other forums, and I see little reason it should be simply accepted here. If you have so much to offer, how are we to know that if you treat marital arts as such a joke there?

Oh, and martial arts have little to do with "objective reasoning and logic", as common sense and logic have little relation to combative systems. After all, if you are dealing with techniques dealing with the expunction of human life, we have gone beyond logic and reasoning, not to mention common sense. So, to get this out of the way, might I suggest a trip to the Meet and Greet forum so you can let us know what background you actually have, and any other information that can help us get to know you better? But mention of Vulcan logic as a martial art probably won't get much of a good reaction.

 

[Vulcan]

Frankly, I wait to be convinced. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Zazen is seated mediation, done at a calm time, in a calm place, with no adrenal aspect whatsoever. So it is hardly the "obvious, natural, and direct way of controlling adrenline". The obvious, natural, and direct way is to experience an adrenal dump, and practice supressing it. And that is not zazen. Again, while zazen has many benefits (we use it a lot ourselves), it is not designed to control adrenaline. A mushin mindset, on the other hand, is.

As for your "not needing to impress anyone on the internet", this isn't anything to do with impressing anyone, but this is a martial arts forum. By letting people know what you actually train in, and how experienced you are, will let us know where you are coming from. Basically, saying that your system is "7th level Vulcan logic" would get you laughed off most other forums, and I see little reason it should be simply accepted here. If you have so much to offer, how are we to know that if you treat marital arts as such a joke there?

Oh, and martial arts have little to do with "objective reasoning and logic", as common sense and logic have little relation to combative systems. After all, if you are dealing with techniques dealing with the expunction of human life, we have gone beyond logic and reasoning, not to mention common sense. So, to get this out of the way, might I suggest a trip to the Meet and Greet forum so you can let us know what background you actually have, and any other information that can help us get to know you better? But mention of Vulcan logic as a martial art probably won't get much of a good reaction.

Chris,


Please don't spend so much time focusing on me or arguing semantics. This is supposed to be the "friendly" martial arts forum, welcoming everyone from new firearms enthusiasts to third generation Hachidans. While your encyclopedic knowledge of (dead) Japanese art, language and lore is impressive, your people skills leave a lot to be desired (in this instance, I've seen you be polite to others...perhaps they were "qualified" enough for you?). I respect you, and I would wish you to give me the benefit of the doubt, as you said you would. On your honour.

If I am not acting like a troll, then do not treat me as such. If I don't fit your expectations, then say that. But why browbeat me and derail the thread? From this point forward, if you wish to discuss the etymology of logic and how it relates to fighting, then start a new thread or send me a private message, and I'll be happy to discuss it or debate it with you. As of now, it is you are being disruptive and rude, which defines a troll...not an individual's personal philosophy of the martial arts. I believe what I believe and I told you why. Your disagree. Fine. Let's leave it at that. Don't assume that your budo is valid and my vulcan is not, when they, in this day and age, are both products of a personal expression and not part of any current practical martial warfare. If you can imagine the methods are a 15th century Japanese then I can imagine the methods of a 25th century Vulcan. We can learn a lot from the imagination and be inspired by it. Am I really a Vulcan logician? No. Are you really a Japanese warrior? No. Can we learn from each other and be inspired by the experience? Yes.

I am brand new here, and some have already welcomed me in the respectful way and engaged in fruitful dialog with me. If you choose not to, fine. But do try and keep such sentiments to yourself, as they are not befitting of such a forum.

At some point, someone had to create something. All established arts were not based on ancient traditions.

Thank you.


Sincerely,


-James

 

[mook jong man]

:spock: - FASCINATING

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi James (good to know your name here),

Without getting too much into it, your first post here struck me as rather trollish in that you inferred that experienced martial artists were ignorant of what you called "the obvious, natural, and direct" answer, when multiple people here (myself included) had mentioned a much more natural, obvious, and direct answer (scenario training based around handling an adrenal surge) a number of times. Your wording left no space for other answers, and that, combined with a frankly non-martial art are hallmarks of a troll. I will be very happy for you to prove me wrong, and hope that you do indeed become a valued member of this forum.

But when it comes to "dead" Japanese arts, well, no they're not. The very act of continuing them is a way to keep them "alive", so I'd disagree with that phrasing rather vehemently. Each and every koryu system I have encountered reference keeping the spirit of their system alive, denying anything that would relegate them to "dead" arts (such as Izumo Ryu, a truly dead system).

The established arts are based on hard-earned experience, bought in blood and sweat, death and pain. Not the creation of Gene Rodenbury (nothing against him, quite enjoy Trek myself, just that this is nothing to do with martial arts). I really have no problem with interesting discourse, in fact I quite enjoy it, but I find it difficult to reconcile any understanding of martial arts if your only experience is your "Vulcan logic".

 

[Vulcan]

I find it difficult to reconcile any understanding of martial arts if your only experience is your "Vulcan logic".

I would too. But it is not. "Vulcan Logic" is not my "experience". It's my jovial self expression.



Damn it. I knew I should have put "Jedi Knight". Everyone love Star Wars martial arts so much better. I think because the are so flashy and not internal?:jediduel:



My the way, I apologize for the "dead" adjective. I figured that would be taken wrong, hence the parenthesis. When I say dead, I mean archaic. I love some of the old styles too, as I am a longtime student of Japanese history, and also speak Japanese. I am a Soto Zen Buddist (why I propose zazen).My Japanese friends sometimes ask why I act like their grandpa.

A recent article in Black Belt magazine echos my sentiment in an article comparing the Western approach to martial arts with the Eastern approach to gunfighting...dress up like a cowboy from the late 1800's and use weapons long since outdated. It is considered...um...a bit different when a white guy walks around as a venerated master of grandpa's art. I actually study a lot of living (current) traditions from Japan as well, such as Grabaka and Shooto, to name two. Both approaches have there place.

Now back to the adrenaline problem. I did some more study and thinking about this last night, and what I failed to mention was the importance of visualizing the event that causes an elevation in adrenaline levels, and observe yourself and how you react in those situations while doing zazen. This may help.

I said that it was "obvious" because I thought you all already knew about this technique. My apologies if I assumed too much of everyone's knowledge of internal practice.

 

[Vulcan]

I just found "The Locker Room", and introduced myself there. Sorry for the thread derail, again. It takes me a while to get oriented.

Carry on...

 

[Vulcan]

:spock: - FASCINATING

:high5:

Good one!

 

[shaolin-warrior]

Adrenal Stress is one of those tricky topics, because everyone experiences it uniquely. For me, any attempt at complex motor skills is out of the question. I am sure that that is why so many pro fighters take a round or so to settle down, to find their groove, if you will. I do know that for me, training adrenal stress is far different than being in the thick of things. In the dojo I am both confident and competent, the risks are minimal, mistake carry a less harsh penalty, one the streets, where mistakes can cost you your life, I am not so quick to engage.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi James,

I would too. But it is not. "Vulcan Logic" is not my "experience". It's my jovial self expression.

That I understand. However I am sure you can understand how it is rather unusual (to say the least!) to claim it as your martial art, as it exists only in the realm of science fiction. Cool?

Damn it. I knew I should have put "Jedi Knight". Everyone love Star Wars martial arts so much better. I think because the are so flashy and not internal?:jediduel:

Ha, yeah, although to be fair I would have had the same reaction if you claimed to actually be a Jedi, or to train in Jedi arts. And my Star Wars geek status is, sad to say, pretty well represented here. For your amusement: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84977
Enjoy.

My the way, I apologize for the "dead" adjective. I figured that would be taken wrong, hence the parenthesis. When I say dead, I mean archaic. I love some of the old styles too, as I am a longtime student of Japanese history, and also speak Japanese. I am a Soto Zen Buddist (why I propose zazen).My Japanese friends sometimes ask why I act like their grandpa.

Thank you for that. "Dead" when describing the older systems is not really a good term for them.

A recent article in Black Belt magazine echos my sentiment in an article comparing the Western approach to martial arts with the Eastern approach to gunfighting...dress up like a cowboy from the late 1800's and use weapons long since outdated. It is considered...um...a bit different when a white guy walks around as a venerated master of grandpa's art. I actually study a lot of living (current) traditions from Japan as well, such as Grabaka and Shooto, to name two. Both approaches have there place.

Well, I would say yes and no. It depends on why such a course of action is undertaken. If you do it because you really want to be a ninja or samurai, or a shaolin monk, because you think it's cool, then yes. But that denies a lot of the reasons that such training (in classical systems, koryu in particular) are engaged in. If you get a chance, check out some footage of Donn Draeger training in Shinto Muso Ryu or Katori Shinto Ryu. Donn was a Marine, and a former Judo champion, quite an impressive person (physically) by all accounts. The way he trained, and the reasons, had nothing to do with dressing up as a long-passed samurai warrior.

Then again, if the Japanese person is dressing up as a cowboy in order to gain experience in the Rodeo scene, such a comment doesn't really apply to them, either, I feel.

Now back to the adrenaline problem. I did some more study and thinking about this last night, and what I failed to mention was the importance of visualizing the event that causes an elevation in adrenaline levels, and observe yourself and how you react in those situations while doing zazen. This may help.

This is closer to the adrenal training I (and others) mentioned earlier. But this is an adaptation of the regular practice of zazen, not it's norm.

I said that it was "obvious" because I thought you all already knew about this technique. My apologies if I assumed too much of everyone's knowledge of internal practice.

Oh, we know about it. We'd mentioned what you're now describing a few times, actually. But my point remains that it (zazen - seated meditation) is not obvious (as it is fairly removed from the situation of adrenal surges and adrenal training), natural (in terms of handling adrenaline, as again that is removed from the environment of zazen) or direct (due to it's removal from adrenal situations) in terms of handling it. What is obvious, natural, and direct is what we have all described, scenario training, getting used to the adrenaline, and getting practice at controlling it under safe conditions.

As I have said a few times now, zazen has many benefits, however you are stretching it to apply it to adrenal situations. I am very happy that it seems to have had such a great benefit in your life, but that doesn't make it anything like a be-all end-all here.

 

[sgtmac_46]

That's interesting. I always teach my students that the adrenal dump will make them dumber, slower, and less capable.

I'm not saying you're wrong, it will make them more dangerous in other ways, which is of course the evolutionary purpose of the complex chemical reactions we're discussing, and you touch on some of that later in your post, I just think it's an interesting contrast of positions.


-Rob

And adrenal dump will make them dumber, as Parker stated, in the sense that they lose higher functions. Adrenaline, however, makes one much quicker. Trained responses work much faster under adrenaline.