Neo-Ninja Training Camp

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Bujingodai

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Your good at this Don, and you know what as far I knew we had buried our hatchet. I also did not set up my own style. I have a teacher....and also have a Bujinkan teacher.
I would state that thought I am not an authority, my opinion would hopefully be better than the average laman. I had stated that Kim looked pretty bad. But you are right it is my opinion, and I said that much.
My arguement was more that not all Indies or Neos whatever are movie Ninja, that most of us are not interested in that.
Just not to lump as all in the same boat.
I'm not attacking the kan, just going tit for tat. If being a Bujinkan makes you legit than great, I have seen some pretty pathetic excuses for legit people then. So being a fake is OK for me, I will live with it. I have found less backstabbing and politics and more training in the indie world.
I have sought out some good instruction. So I am one then Don. Both indie and Kan.
I'm not here to argue, I am hardly the offender of outrageous claims.
As for the Juko Kai, well you are right that they are not pushed by the most of the Kan, but it is the same arguement, say I was a member of that dojo...in the Kan by a liscenced by hatsumi teacher, a high ranking quality legit school I'd still be an outcast so it means little to me anymore.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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Unless you at one time or another experienced a training session that was suddenly interrupted by the instructor ordering you all to sit down in a little ring and discuss politics, I find that to be a very poor excuse for not being able to train.
 

Cryozombie

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Bujingodai said:
. If being a Bujinkan makes you legit than great, I have seen some pretty pathetic excuses for legit people then.
Here is my Challenge for you.

Find me a style of martial arts. I don't particularly care which style. Any style.

That does not have some "less than skilled" practitioners.

Why? Because that is a STUPID argument to use against the 'Kan... yet its the #1 thing I have seen brought up, that, and the politics.

Oh yeah. The Politics. Theres challenge #2. Find me an art, with an organization behind it, that has NO politics.

And Bujingaodi, here is MY only beef with the "indies"... I do believe there are Legit indies. Ive said it before... I cited some earlier. My beef comes when you have guys who learn, I dunno, we'll say anything, maybe Karate and Jui Jitsu, and then go, "I am a Ninja master of Karajui jutsu ninjutsu, my secret dream of meeting a Demon on a waterfall imparted the ancient ninja wisdom that was taught to me by my secret uncle whom no record of exsits and he died so do not ask about him" The guy could the TOP fighter on the planet, and I could learn to be a total bad *** from him, but why did he choose to make up a lame *** story and call himself "ninja"?

Why not just teach what he knows, is good at, and leave it at that? You can bake an apple pie, Call it a Chocolate cake, but people who know chocolate cake will know its nothing more than an apple pie... even if its the best damn pie on the planet, and even if their chocolate cake isnt as good as someone elses.
 

Bujingodai

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Techno I agree with you. If you study Karate and Kung Fu and hybrid it don't call it Ninjutsu. There are many schools I have come across that do just that, and I have no relation to them after the fact.

My arguement was just for an arguement. Legitamacy gets argued I am just saying that OK so you are more legit with a longer paper trail...sometimes that doesn't mean everything. Though it is a major point.

Now Nimravus the words
I find that to be a very poor excuse for not being able to train.

I am sorry that I have not justified, nor have some others...However I think personally at the end of the day I have to answer to me....so I am fine with it. I tried my best and still do train thank you. I also still train with legit instructors as well. But I won't lose any sleep knowing that you think I am not justified. If you are happy with what you have, good for you.

Techno, agreed also there are politics everywhere I just found that at least in my fairly large geographic neck of the woods........which includes some of the brotherhood politics and backstabbing a tad more than the average.
 

Don Roley

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Bujingodai said:
My arguement was just for an arguement. Legitamacy gets argued I am just saying that OK so you are more legit with a longer paper trail...sometimes that doesn't mean everything. Though it is a major point.

You are trying to sweep under the rug the fact that there are bald faced liars and con men who are members of the same "neo ninja" groups you are. It is not about who has the better paper trail. It is about people lying through their teeth. I would never train with or be a member of an orginization that allowed people like "Yo Sato", David D'antonio, Konigun, Nindo-ryu, etc because THEY LIE ABOUT IMPORTANT THINGS. You go to the head of any of those arts I mentioned and ask him for proof of all his claims. You won't get it. And you have associated yourself with these and more despite knowing that they made claims and can't back them up.

And as for your claim, "I also did not set up my own style." What is "Bujin Godai"? You have students training under you and you are not a member of the Bujinkan shidoshikai the last time I checked. You were just barely into being a black belt the last time I noticed, and you seem to have set up your Bujin Godai system before even that.

Maybe not all neo ninja groups are the same, but I have yet to see anyone who associates themself as a neo ninjutsu type that does not fall into the two catagories I have listed. They are either a liar, or they set themselves up as a grandmaster way before they know what he hell they are doing.

And the worst always try to attack other orginizations like the Bujinkan when their probelms are center stage.
 

Bujingodai

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OK I do not assosiate with any of the groups you mentioned save for the Nindo, whom I may not agree with technique wise. I like them.

We have discussed the bujingodai before. And for many facts you are right. I am also not resgisted under the Shidoshi Kai, I am not a liscenced Kan teacher. Yes I have people that train under me but I also have a teacher. 3 of them actually. The org as it is I did start, because I am a businessman and thats what I am good at. However I have quite a bit left to learn.
 

Bujingodai

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Regardless I am not the one playing up what I am. I don't ask for your support for it, nor do I need it. My dojo is open to anyone to come show me, show me up or whatever. But I enjoy what I am doing, so I will go back to that focus on what is important to me. I didn't come here to justify what I do just state that not all neo are movie martial artists.
And maybe one day Don I will open my eyes and have you to thank for it. If I ever come to Japan, a likelyhood by years end or early 2006, are you up for an honest chat? Personally I respect where you are coming from even if we don't agree on it all.
 

Don Roley

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Bujingodai said:
I didn't come here to justify what I do just state that not all neo are movie martial artists.

You keep repeating that, but can you name even one that does not either lie and/or spent less than ten years going to a qualified teacher on a weekly basis before setting himself up to teach his own thing? You belong to a group that has Yo Sato as a member. I do not see how you can associate yourself with that type of person and try to defend them.
 
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Bester

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*Sigh*

I started this thread to poke some fun as a small but consistantly annoying group of people. The fools that think movies is real. I didn't start it to bash the Bujikan, or any other Kan group. I didn't start it to create a flame-fest.

Just to needle the fools, and have a little fun.

Thinkg are way off base at this point, and I request that the moderators please, lock, throw or bury this as it's become an embarrasment for many of those involved, and a blemish on their respective organizations. It is this sort of behavior which sadly has made the ninja and his arts a continuous joke in the martial arts community, and allowed fakirs to abuse them.

Such a pity. What started out as humor, turns to hatred.
 

Bujingodai

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Well Don respctively I have no idea how many years they had teachers. I still continue to have one, did for some years prior to going indie, and still have a Kan teacher so I guess I qualify in a way.
As for Yo Sato, we departed ways some time ago actually.

I agree with the last poster, the reason for the thread has gone way off base. I was only trying to set somewhat of a record straight not start a debate that will never be won/accepted. So Ok.
 

Don Roley

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Bujingodai said:
I still continue to have one, did for some years prior to going indie, and still have a Kan teacher so I guess I qualify in a way.
As for Yo Sato, we departed ways some time ago actually.

So you go to this teacher every week? Or is it just a seminar or two from time to time? And let us show just how easy it show proof of training by having you give the names of your teacher and then others can verify it for themselves.

Otherwise this whole attack on the Bujinkan you started serves no purpose.
 

Bujingodai

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Sadly right now it is time to time. I train under Shidoshi Pierre Benoit out of Montreal. I will not name my Indie teacher as Iwouldn't give him the hassle I face. I do also train under Jackson Wagner and David Falcaro 2 people whom I wish people here have actually met and trained with. It is laughable when people talk of their lack of skill, then you see it.

What attack did I start? I defended people that didn't fit the movie thing. Don you are picking things out of everything that I say and using it.
I guess I am pretty much finished with the conversation, yes Don I am a fake and you are right.
Ok on to other things.
 

Jeff Boler

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Bester said:
*Sigh*

I started this thread to poke some fun as a small but consistantly annoying group of people. The fools that think movies is real. I didn't start it to bash the Bujikan, or any other Kan group. I didn't start it to create a flame-fest.

Just to needle the fools, and have a little fun.

Thinkg are way off base at this point, and I request that the moderators please, lock, throw or bury this as it's become an embarrasment for many of those involved, and a blemish on their respective organizations. It is this sort of behavior which sadly has made the ninja and his arts a continuous joke in the martial arts community, and allowed fakirs to abuse them.

Such a pity. What started out as humor, turns to hatred.


First off, my apologies to Bujinkan members, as I was under the assumption that mr. BESTER, was a Bujinkan member himself. Had I known otherwise, I would not have brought it up.

However, Mr. Bester's attitude toward anyone that doesn't toe the Takamatsu line, is not all that different from the vast majority of Takamatsuden students that I have come in contact with.

The whole "we're better than you" arguement is getting old. While it's true that Bujinkan / Genbukan has legitimate ties to Japan, I can point out several Koryu scholars who would be able to argue that there ties do not fall in the Koryu lines.

A long with this, there have long been "rumors" about various relationships that the Bujinkan has had with several questionable groups, from Juko Kai, to Aum Shinrikyo, etc. Quite frankly, I believe both to be bogus. Seems to me that the one single organization that has hurt the Bujinkan more than any of these is the Brotherhood, and they are supposed to be legit.

Point is this. The X-Kans have a similar amount of turmoil, as any independent organization has. So why must the "I'm better than you are" comments continue to pop up? It's pointless, and there's no way to resolve it.

As for Mr. Bester, if you have no legitimate ties to any Ninjutsu organization yourself, I don't see that you have any right to "poke fun" with annoying posts that do nothing more than be-little others. I suggest that the easiest way to stop these type of posts, is to not start them in the first place.
 

Don Roley

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Bujingodai said:
I do also train under Jackson Wagner and David Falcaro 2 people whom I wish people here have actually met and trained with. It is laughable when people talk of their lack of skill, then you see it..

I do not know the latter fellow, but I have seen Jackson Wagner's supposed certificate that he claims he got from his Japanese teacher. It is so funny I would have had milk coming out of my nose had I been drinking any. Among other things, it was supposably issued by the "Heavenly Dog Association." It is an obvious fake and so Wagner is a liar and a fraud. I do not see how anyone would want to train under a liar and a fraud. And I am sure that Dave Gibb may think that he is skilled, but considering just how little experience he has, it is not surprising. I have seen pictures from Wagner's site and they did not impress me. Years ago I probably would not have seen the holes in his techniques I do now.

These are the "indies" you try to defend and claim to be worthy of learning from? A guy who uses a fake certificate? And Dave, you have not trained on a regular basis under a qualified instructor long enough to get to a point where you can teach Bujinkan- and yet you teach "Bujin Godai?" Just in the examples shown so far I have not seen a person who has put in the time or has been honest about what they do in any "indie" practicioner.
 

Don Roley

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Jeff Boler said:
Point is this. The X-Kans have a similar amount of turmoil, as any independent organization has. So why must the "I'm better than you are" comments continue to pop up? It's pointless, and there's no way to resolve it.

Better than who?

We do not like to be lumped together with Ashida Kim, Frank Dux or any person making fraudulant claims out there. And yes, I do believe that Hatsumi is 100 times better on his worst day than anyone trying to use a certificate issued by the "Heavenly Dog Association" as proof that he had a teacher.
 

Bujingodai

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I know that Wagner was taught thru Obata and Kimeda.
Forget the damn paper, have you seen him move? Has anyone that you know of trained with him.
As for me. I don't teach Bujinkan. Never said I did, don't issue grade in it either. However I was 4 or 5 years regularly in a Kan school before going out so to speak. I have seen people that were kyus along side of me are now 5 dan plus, so being in it long enough to teach it. There are many schools there with inexperienced teachers. I for one was willing to admit to you long time ago that the Bujingodai was an accident. I never asked to teach, at all. It just happened this way. Have admitted that to pretty much anybody that asks.
This is getting pathetic. I am not attacking the Booj, Nor do I care. I am again hardly the one you need to throw blame at.
Sorry your not impressed but at the end of the day, I have to be happy with myself
if anyone wishes to come to my dojo and teach or if you feel you need to come and school me to show how little my skill is there please do.
email me at bujingodai@yahoo.ca
I am not issueing a challenge but merely to show I am willing to show what I know, or what I do not yet know. I have nothing to hide, I am not the one making claims.
But I am sure your next post will do more to damage what I am. What would your end product be Don?

Go piss on Dux or Kim.
 

Don Roley

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Bujingodai said:
I know that Wagner was taught thru Obata and Kimeda.

Prove it. Are you talking about Toshiro Obata? I can imagine Wagner showing up to a seminar or two by Obata. But he lied about being taught that style he claims on his web site. So he is a liar and no matter how many other seminars he goes to or tickets he gets punched by doing so he is still a person who lies about his experience. And as much as you think he moves skillfully, there are people who believe just as strongly about Kim or Dux or any other fraud.

But now you seem to be trying to justify setting yourself up as a teacher, even though you were never at the skill level to teach Bujinkan. If you are a typical independent, what does that say about the general skill level? "My teaching was just an accident"- yeah I have heard things like that before. If you are truely happy with what you do and feel no need to justify it, why are you posting here again and again after saying that you are finished with the matter to try to justify what you do? Tearing down others to justify your setting up your own Bujin Godai system is not something that would fill me with confidence if I wanted to train with you.

Again, nothing I have seen from the independents strikes me as being honest or very skilled. Here is a list I found that has one of your teachers (David Falcaro) on it. You may note that at the top you will find Ashida Kim as an honored member.

http://www.btins.us/shidoshis.htm
 

Kizaru

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Jeff Boler said:
While it's true that Bujinkan / Genbukan has legitimate ties to Japan, I can point out several Koryu scholars who would be able to argue that there ties do not fall in the Koryu lines.
Exactly! They're just that, scholars, not martial artists. I could find just as many "Koryu Scholars" here in Japan that would argue that the 9 ryu and the way they're taught ARE legitimate koryu. I could find just as many martial artists here involved with koryu that would vouch for the legitamcy of the 9 ryu. I've actually been told by one Soke here that he and other Shihan/Shihanke/Soke/Soshi feel that Hatsumi Soke teaches too traditionally.

Sadly, I've also come in contact with a lot of people who come to Japan, train for a little while, go back to their own home countries and then (verbally) bash other people doing Japanese martial arts when they get back. This a) makes them feel special b) makes others who haven't yet been to Japan think they are "the real deal" or that they are "Koryu Scholars" and c) helps win them a corner of the market share.
 

Dale Seago

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Kizaru said:
I've actually been told by one Soke here that he and other Shihan/Shihanke/Soke/Soshi feel that Hatsumi Soke teaches too traditionally.

That's rather fascinating. I wouldn't want you to violate confidentiality and possibly create problems for whatever Soke said this by asking for his name and ryu, but can you give a clearer picture of the sense in which the remark was meant?
 

althaur

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Jeff Boler said:
A long with this, there have long been "rumors" about various relationships that the Bujinkan has had with several questionable groups, from Juko Kai, to Aum Shinrikyo, etc. Quite frankly, I believe both to be bogus. Seems to me that the one single organization that has hurt the Bujinkan more than any of these is the Brotherhood, and they are supposed to be legit.
Easy there, bub. The ONLY time that accusation was made was by Don Cunningham. He pulled it out of his *** and got a verbal thrashing for it. He made that accusation not too long after 9/11. That was the point where even the slightest accusation of association to a terrorist group could cause a lot of harm. The ONLY questionable group to "latch on" to the Bujinkan was the Juko Kai. I guess Rod wanted to be taken seriously. :rolleyes:
 
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