Need more advice in cane fight practice

Oily Dragon

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I finally get to your post. Interesting, sliding the hand along the stick. I really do not get use to it, seems like the cane is too short to do that
How many directions do you see?

Is it 8? Why not?
 
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Alan0354

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Alan,

The Casting is great technique to learn and works.
For me, I have found that it works best against an object - e.g. Heavy Bag.

The arms is where all your work is coming from so it will be tiring and seem slow and may not look correctly to you in your videos.

Getting the body (Shoulders and Hips) into the equation is the next step. Yes, this is a process and sometimes you learn something to help with a concept and body motion and then have to move past the rest to move to the next step. That is not the case here, just pointing it out for the future.

Take the advice a slight larger distance start with about an inch more between the hands.
This next will be slow training until you get it and then it can be sped up.

Start in the air, keep your primary hand at about 90 degreed from forearm to cane.
pick your target, - Door or corner - pick something you don't want to hit and damage, and then slowly try to hit the object but stop about 5 inches (~13 cm) short and later 3 (~8 cm) and then maybe even 1 inch (2 to 3 cm).

Now to get the target (tip of the cane) close to the target, you will need to move your body. So try not to move your shoulders. Stick an empty glass case (soft) or deck of cars under your primary arm pit and this will help you keep your elbows in and not rely upon shoulders.
This will then get you to move your torso. The easiest way to begin this, is to place your weight on the side where the stick is coming from. The weight can be 51-99 % what ever is comfortable and makes sense for distance to target and how far you have to rotate.
The weight bearing knee will be bent.
The hips will rotate into / with the strike.
Yes it will seem like one is chopping with an axe.

Why is this a good next step?
Simple Force equals Mass times Acceleration. Once you get your torso and hips into the moving equation the force is increase.
example: 75 kg man swings with just their arms at 5 kg (Easy math not real) and they accelerate at factor 2 then force would be 10
If one then adds in their torso and get say 25 kg of movement with the same factor of 2 for acceleration this provides a value of 50 .
That means one would have to move at the acceleration rate of 10 to get the same results for force.

*** To Math/Physics/Engineers/PT/Doctors et al: Yes, I know there are lots of partial losses and vectors and the absolute is not as great as this example, yet the point is made clear I hope.

Once you get your control down slowly, move to the bag and go slowly there as well.
After the new target is comfortable then change the stopping point to be an inch or two (2 - 6 cm) inside the bag.
Yes the cane will "Stick" to the target. This is part of the training to make sure your weight is moving.

Then shift your weight to the other side and try again from the other side.

Now that this is comfortable, break the 90 degree angle and cast at the end of the strike with the bag.
When practicing without a bag as the target, keep the 90 Degrees to help with the body absorbing the force as it stops versus the wrist and shoulders.

Good Luck :)
Hi Rick Parsons

I don't know how I missed you post at the very beginning!! Sorry I did not reply until now. I finally finished reading page 4 and start on page 5 of this thread!!!

This is very interesting, holding something in the armpit of the major hand and swing. I definitely will try that. This reminds me of my teacher of TKD told us to do hook punch to the body as if we are holding something in our arm pit to make sure we engage our body.

We learned to punch using the foot. Like when we do Jab and reverse punch. when doing the reverse punch(in orthodox stance with left foot forward, when punching with right hand) we turn the body until the right heel lifts off the ground. Same as when we punch with the left hand, the body weight shift and the left heel lifts up.

I can definitely relate to what you are talking. One thing, I do take a lot of what I learn in TKD and put it to use in cane exercise. This is the kind of advice I really need, learn a lot from this thread, so many new things to practice.

I also trying to pay attention to put some space between the two hands. I already have like 1" between them, I guess it's still too close.

Thanks




EDIT: I tried two sets of holding both elbows in against my body as if I am holding something in the armpits. That immobilized both upper arms. I do flex the elbow when hitting to give me a more realistic hit. But still the swing is mainly from the body, waist, legs. I use the technique of lifting the heels when I turn the body like I learned before. Hope that will improve my body engagement. It's kind of strange so far!!!
 
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Alan0354

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What's the goal of your cane training? Do you intend to fight against people with:

1. open hand?
2. cane?
3. another kind of weapon (such as sword, long staff, ...)?
I expect more open hand. This is self defense on the street, don't think that many people carry a cane or a stick or sword etc.


Finally, I am catching up in this thread.
 
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Alan0354

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Speaking as one who has needed a cane for a few months now.... it is difficult, especially if you base it on the stuff I see out there as cane SD. However there are ways to make it work, just as long as you are not planning on horse stances, quick back steps, front kicks, swinging it like a baseball bat and the like...as I see in a lot of the videos of it. And those videos are made for the exact thing you are talking about. And they are fine for the average martial artist. But not people who actually need it who may want to have some sort of SD. There are ways to use it if you need....believe me, I'm working on it, have been for a while.
You need a cane to walk? Is it injury or age? How do you use your cane for SD? It seems to be very hard if you have to depend on the cane.

There are canes that have stun gun built in.

Amazon.com : ZAP Walking Cane 1 Million Volt Stun Device with LED Flashlight. : Sports & Outdoors

There are a lot of options selling on Amazon:

Amazon.com : cane with stun gun

That seems to be more effective.
 

dvcochran

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Thanks

I notice that now. I thought I am supposed to have a horse stand as footwork!!! THAT's what really messed up for me on the videos in post #1. The last few weeks, I was actually practicing very deep horse stance to swing the cane, that really ruined the use of the shoulder and I actually forgot to use shoulder, waist and legs on the videos of the first post. Tony Dismukes pointed that out so I redo the video in post #21.

So the stance is still too wide? Yes, it's a whole lot more comfortable to have a higher stance that I can move more natural like when I do kick boxing.

I thought in post #5, you said I am too forward biased, I read your post and I make sure I stand straight.

Thanks



Side note: I am being accused I don't listen to the advice. I read VERY CAREFULLY. It was holidays, I was too busy. I actually have not read pass page 2 yet, I am still going back to read now, so I never got to most of the posts!!! I am not going to say I will agree on all the suggestions, but I definitely will try it out. Like I do not practice using the hook of the cane to try to hook the person's neck and do all the fancy work. For one, I can lose my cane if the person jerks back. Also, I don't practice blocking if the opponent strike with cane that much at all because in self defense, I don't expect the young attacker have a cane or stick. I do spend a lot of time just on Casting. It looks simple, believe me, it's hard. But I can speak from experience, I can strike hard using Casting without swinging a big arc. Those swing from shoulder to the other shoulder in an arc or figure 8 are child's play. I did it in the first two months already and made the videos. It's the accidentally hitting furniture and lose the cane that really got me thinking and thanks to Lamont Glass introducing the Casting, I have not lost my cane for months. I am surprised some people here never think of losing the stick/cane in a fight. It happens all the time. The difference is in a competition, you lose the match. In real life, you can lose your life when you lose the cane.

Also, I try to keep the strike very simple, 4 strikes, two high, two low. Now I add the poking into the mix. I work very hard on cane fight the last few months, but mainly on what to me is important. Like what you said about the stance is VERY IMPORTANT and I will definitely try it out.

I always going by Less Is More even in MA. Like in bare knuckles, I mainly practice jab and reverse punch, I don't do fancy moves. Occasionally a circle punch(same as Ridge Hands in TKD), that's it. I use this principle in practicing cane fight. 4 strikes and poke. I also add kicks with the cane also, BUT no fancy twirling, figure 8 and all that fancy moves. I might be new in stick fight, but I do have a few years of TKD/kick boxing under my belt. I truly believe in less is more. I hate katas and all the fancy moves. I only want stuffs that works.
Well done.
I think my 'too far forward' comment early on was when you were in a horse stance. Since one foot was not forward, you were leaned far away from your base. But in front stance that is not much of an issue.
 

Xue Sheng

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You need a cane to walk? Is it injury or age? How do you use your cane for SD? It seems to be very hard if you have to depend on the cane.

There are canes that have stun gun built in.

Amazon.com : ZAP Walking Cane 1 Million Volt Stun Device with LED Flashlight. : Sports & Outdoors

There are a lot of options selling on Amazon:

Amazon.com : cane with stun gun

That seems to be more effective.

Knee replacement. I've been in martial arts since 1972, Chinese martial arts since 1991, and it is a work in progress. That is also why I like Tom Bisio's stuff on cane SD. More realistic. The cane is temporary, but I have had to use one to walk, several times, since 2019 due to various knee surgeries.
 
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Alan0354

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Knee replacement. I've been in martial arts since 1972, Chinese martial arts since 1991, and it is a work in progress. That is also why I like Tom Bisio's stuff on cane SD. More realistic. The cane is temporary, but I have had to use one to walk, several times, since 2019 due to various knee surgeries.
Good to hear, keep at it, you'll recover.
 
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Alan0354

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Alan,
If you have not read my reply, please do so. If you have could you let me know how it went for you?
I really think what I suggested would be a place to step back and get some good body mechanics.
As to footwork, I recommend an Oblique Front walking. Oblique - Non Parallel - Non Perpendicular
Take a standard step forward. You feet won't be as wide as the class front walking and your feet may not be parallel as well.
Concentrate on weight and not casting to get the hips and body rotation in, and then go back and add the casting back in.
Not ready to make another video yet, BUT I am having a BALL doing the exercise as if I am holding something in my armpit!!! I did FIVE sets yesterday. It's getting faster.

I don't do any horse stance anymore, My footwork is going back to the roots of what I learn in kick boxing( I don't want to say TKD as my teacher was nothing traditional, we don't do katas until a week before belt test, we fought standing almost straight and use boxing hands. We called the fighting stance). Fighting stance allow us to turn the hip much easier, I think it's like what you described here, left foot forward, feet only a little over 1ft apart (more like 1 1/2) knee slightly bend. We can move a lot faster like that.

I was watching videos on FMA escrima, they kept using wider stance, I thought that's how I should do. I am going back to my old fighting stance now.

I even practicing poking(thrusting) with my right arm like holding something in the armpit. This forces me to use more body to poke. For the longest time, I kept thinking I only use both arms to thrust the tip of the cane forward, it's not strong enough, now I am using my body.

Thanks, this is very useful. Hopefully this is as big a game changer as learning Casting. Funny it doesn't feel as tiring as before. Must be that I tried too hard swinging only with arms before.
 
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Alan0354

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Knee replacement. I've been in martial arts since 1972, Chinese martial arts since 1991, and it is a work in progress. That is also why I like Tom Bisio's stuff on cane SD. More realistic. The cane is temporary, but I have had to use one to walk, several times, since 2019 due to various knee surgeries.
I am not a doctor and I have no experience specifically on knees. BUT, I truly believe in weight training for rehab and recovery. Let me be very specific, using heavier weight weapons or punching with weights to train in your MA is NOT the way, it has to be weight training in the gym. You need to find a doctor that believes in rehab with weights and give you the prescription to get the training. Then you can be on your own.

Let me give you a little bit of my history. I was training very hard in TKD and kick boxing in the early to mid 80s. I injured my back from all the high kicks and I had to quit. I tried all the different doctors including Chinese stuffs short of surgery, nothing worked. For almost two years, I could not stand for 2 minutes without tingling going down my legs all the way to the toe. I was disabled.

Finally the doctor in St. Mary's Spine Center( the place that operated on Joe Montana) put me onto a rehab with weights. They made me do so weight exercise and monitor my posture to make sure I don't injure myself( you have to be careful doing weights). It was a MIRACLE. I slowly recovered, I slowly got back into kick boxing at home with heavy bags and all. I have been doing it since for the last 30 years.

I never stop weight training. I joined a gym and workout 3 times a week until two years ago when the gym closed down due to the Covid. I started buying equipment and do it at home since. Never slack off because it's the ONLY thing that keep me healthy.

I put a lot more time in MA particular the cane fight. I workout over 6 hours a week ( like over an hour a day, 5 days a week). Half the time is on weight training.

I have all sort of injuries, the shoulders, knees, elbows, back and neck. I ALWAYS find one particular weight exercise to fix the injuries so far. The worst I have is a Cortisone injection to the knee. Knock on wood, I have been fixing myself all these years.

Like I said, I am NOT a doctor, I cannot tell you what to do, talk to a doctor and see. Keep having surgery is not the answer. recovery is very long.
 
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Alan0354

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I am still here, not slacking off at all. I have been practicing everyday. Just nothing to show. Here is how I practice. I hold both arms close to body to swing and I try not to use the forearm to swing. Here is the video of my practice. Please comment if you see something:


I do at least one set of this to start before doing with casting. Still not comfortable doing casting. BUT, I swear, the cane feels lighter. I start putting on the rubber foot(adding some weight at the tip), and I cut the new cane 1" longer. It still feels comfortable. I even play with turning the cane around and swing with the crook handle at the front. Seems like using the body, that take stress off the arms.

Thanks
 

Oily Dragon

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I am still here, not slacking off at all. I have been practicing everyday. Just nothing to show. Here is how I practice. I hold both arms close to body to swing and I try not to use the forearm to swing. Here is the video of my practice. Please comment if you see something:


I do at least one set of this to start before doing with casting. Still not comfortable doing casting. BUT, I swear, the cane feels lighter. I start putting on the rubber foot(adding some weight at the tip), and I cut the new cane 1" longer. It still feels comfortable. I even play with turning the cane around and swing with the crook handle at the front. Seems like using the body, that take stress off the arms.

Thanks
You hurt your toe?
 
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Alan0354

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You hurt your toe?
From kicking the heavy bag!!! Two cracks!! :( Winter dry and cold don't help either. Using more body to swing the cane doesn't help also, the feet keep turning on the floor. I don't kick front kick with the toe(of cause, kicking with the ball of the foot) but just the stress of kicking crack the skin next to the toe nail. It actually gets bloody!!!
 
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Tony Dismukes

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I am still here, not slacking off at all. I have been practicing everyday. Just nothing to show. Here is how I practice. I hold both arms close to body to swing and I try not to use the forearm to swing. Here is the video of my practice. Please comment if you see something:


I do at least one set of this to start before doing with casting. Still not comfortable doing casting. BUT, I swear, the cane feels lighter. I start putting on the rubber foot(adding some weight at the tip), and I cut the new cane 1" longer. It still feels comfortable. I even play with turning the cane around and swing with the crook handle at the front. Seems like using the body, that take stress off the arms.

Thanks
Looking good. When you hit for real, you will want to let your arms fly a bit more, but what you are doing in that video is a good exercise for reminding yourself that most of your power should come from your hips. And yes, it will make the cane feel lighter.
 
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Alan0354

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Looking good. When you hit for real, you will want to let your arms fly a bit more, but what you are doing in that video is a good exercise for reminding yourself that most of your power should come from your hips. And yes, it will make the cane feel lighter.
I just want show I practice with arm close to body as if I am holding something in the armpit. I make sure this is my first set every morning to start. I still not comfortable with casting, I have to keep reminding myself to use the body to drive the swing. Give me more time before I make a video on casting.

Thanks for your post, it really helps. Funny that most of my sticks are too short now because I can swing a longer stick!! Or putting the rubber foot on to add weight at the tip. the only victim is my toe, because of the turning of the feet on the floor, the skin cracks and it's bleeding. I have to tape it up for practice.

Thanks
 

wab25

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I had a couple of thoughts. I read the first few pages... then got tied up at work... by the time I got back, there were quite a few pages to catch up on... I skimmed, so if someone beat me to these... sorry ;)

First thought is the legal question. You do not need a cane. Watching these videos, and seeing how you move, you do not need one. You are in fact carrying the cane to be used as a weapon. In the event that you need to defend yourself, if it is caught on camera, it will be apparent that you do not need a cane, the way you are moving and striking with it. I would highly suggest, that you read and understand the law, where you are, about carrying and using weapons. If you travel, you should also know the laws for the places you go to. I am not trying to talk you out of the training, or the cane... just suggesting that there is more to prepare for than just taking out the bad guy. If you get attacked, and severely injure the other guy you could be looking at both criminal and civil trials. I would also bet that these threads here, with the videos of you training will be found and used. Understanding the law is very important, any time you carry any weapon at all.

Second thought... many people have suggested some form of grappling to add in, in case the distance gets closed or the cane gets grabbed. I am not a fan of tying the weapon to my wrist... the cane now becomes a great big handle for the bad guy to use to control me. What I would suggest, is to find a school that can teach you Hanbo. There are lots of grappling moves with the Hanbo, that will translate directly to your cane. Many are designed for the specific situation, where the bad guy grabs your stick or closes distance. The other point about Hanbo training, is that many of the techniques translate into many different weapons of opportunity: canes, sticks, clubs, rules, wrenches, pens, rolled up magazines, and cloth. Now you would not need to always have your cane, but just always know where the Hanbo'ish weapons are that are around you. This training will also give you a way to choke out, put down the bad guy, with out injury... which will help with the legal aspect.

Just some thoughts.
 
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Alan0354

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I had a couple of thoughts. I read the first few pages... then got tied up at work... by the time I got back, there were quite a few pages to catch up on... I skimmed, so if someone beat me to these... sorry ;)

First thought is the legal question. You do not need a cane. Watching these videos, and seeing how you move, you do not need one. You are in fact carrying the cane to be used as a weapon. In the event that you need to defend yourself, if it is caught on camera, it will be apparent that you do not need a cane, the way you are moving and striking with it. I would highly suggest, that you read and understand the law, where you are, about carrying and using weapons. If you travel, you should also know the laws for the places you go to. I am not trying to talk you out of the training, or the cane... just suggesting that there is more to prepare for than just taking out the bad guy. If you get attacked, and severely injure the other guy you could be looking at both criminal and civil trials. I would also bet that these threads here, with the videos of you training will be found and used. Understanding the law is very important, any time you carry any weapon at all.

Second thought... many people have suggested some form of grappling to add in, in case the distance gets closed or the cane gets grabbed. I am not a fan of tying the weapon to my wrist... the cane now becomes a great big handle for the bad guy to use to control me. What I would suggest, is to find a school that can teach you Hanbo. There are lots of grappling moves with the Hanbo, that will translate directly to your cane. Many are designed for the specific situation, where the bad guy grabs your stick or closes distance. The other point about Hanbo training, is that many of the techniques translate into many different weapons of opportunity: canes, sticks, clubs, rules, wrenches, pens, rolled up magazines, and cloth. Now you would not need to always have your cane, but just always know where the Hanbo'ish weapons are that are around you. This training will also give you a way to choke out, put down the bad guy, with out injury... which will help with the legal aspect.

Just some thoughts.
Same can be said for other weapons. Even for bare knuckles, the logic still applies. If I follow your logic, I might as well not defending myself.

Idea is not to start a fight, but when it comes knocking at your door, you don't have a choice AND it's better than bare knuckles. I have a few years of training in TKD and kick boxing but I don't think it is good enough to fight a younger and much bigger person, even if I learn other things, so what?

You are going to be in trouble regardless how you defend yourself, might as well try not be be beaten up first.
 
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drop bear

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I think the difficulty here is that he's trying to do all of this without the basics. Not one of us, to my knowledge, have introduced any basics that he should train. We pretty much try to answer the questions he has and he's not understanding a lot of it, because he doesn't have that foundation.

All of our statements have been based on our knowledge of other weapons and how we understand the basics can be applied to the cane. We have just experienced the text book example of "There's no short path to learn this stuff."

Yeah. But not exactly the highest bar either. I mean ultimately he just needs to belt fools with the thing.
 

drop bear

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I had a couple of thoughts. I read the first few pages... then got tied up at work... by the time I got back, there were quite a few pages to catch up on... I skimmed, so if someone beat me to these... sorry ;)

First thought is the legal question. You do not need a cane. Watching these videos, and seeing how you move, you do not need one. You are in fact carrying the cane to be used as a weapon. In the event that you need to defend yourself, if it is caught on camera, it will be apparent that you do not need a cane, the way you are moving and striking with it. I would highly suggest, that you read and understand the law, where you are, about carrying and using weapons. If you travel, you should also know the laws for the places you go to. I am not trying to talk you out of the training, or the cane... just suggesting that there is more to prepare for than just taking out the bad guy. If you get attacked, and severely injure the other guy you could be looking at both criminal and civil trials. I would also bet that these threads here, with the videos of you training will be found and used. Understanding the law is very important, any time you carry any weapon at all.

Second thought... many people have suggested some form of grappling to add in, in case the distance gets closed or the cane gets grabbed. I am not a fan of tying the weapon to my wrist... the cane now becomes a great big handle for the bad guy to use to control me. What I would suggest, is to find a school that can teach you Hanbo. There are lots of grappling moves with the Hanbo, that will translate directly to your cane. Many are designed for the specific situation, where the bad guy grabs your stick or closes distance. The other point about Hanbo training, is that many of the techniques translate into many different weapons of opportunity: canes, sticks, clubs, rules, wrenches, pens, rolled up magazines, and cloth. Now you would not need to always have your cane, but just always know where the Hanbo'ish weapons are that are around you. This training will also give you a way to choke out, put down the bad guy, with out injury... which will help with the legal aspect.

Just some thoughts.

Every time I have tried to grapple with a stick I have wound up having to fight it off the guy.

Hitting is simpler.

And I think choke holds would be seen as worse than hitting someone.

Of course a counter measure if they grab the stick is a good idea.
 
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Alan0354

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Yeah. But not exactly the highest bar either. I mean ultimately he just needs to belt fools with the thing.
The following is NOT talking against you, just responding to some that kept saying I never even learn the basics.

Funny that I don't think that many people even know CASTING that I am practicing and no body talked about body motion until Tony. Not to sound ungrateful, I saw a lot of video that provided are so basic like how to swing a stick and all the fancy moves. I absolutely NOT interested. If you call those basic, No thank you.

You are right, I am learning self defense in real life, not a stick competition, performance. My concentration is how to strike fast, how to strike hard, NOT how to block people with stick, weapon, fighting in competition or anything. It is laughable to see some video shown that the person swing, then turn around a full circle before continue striking. It is pretty, I have to give it to those. I stop watching the video the moment I saw that already. I am not interested in performing on stage.

No offense, compare Casting that Lamont Glass and body motion what Tony Dismukes talked about, to me, those are HIGHER bar than those fancy stuffs that was shown in those videos. Same reason I spent MONTHS practicing just jab and reverse punch, concentrating on using legs, hips, shoulder to add force together. BUT at the same time, I laugh at those fancy katas. I never practice katas with all those unrealistic move that is absolutely useless. I looked for long time before I found a TKD school that was like kick boxing those days, no katas, no stupid things, just how to hit fast and how to hit hard.

Casting and body motion are ones I will spend months practicing them. These and smoother footwork is all I need at this point. My whole point of even practice with cane is because of all the attacks on older Chinese on the street. Not to go start a fight.


EDIT:
The only thing fancy that I do practice is moving around in deep horse stand with one leg forward bent and the back leg straight. Not that it is practical or useful, but it reduces pain on my knees and I find it help my balance with a stronger foundation. Actually that's what screwed me up on my first two videos in post #1 of this thread. I cannot use body motion with those deep stance and I messed up my body motion. Did not realize until I made those two videos. I since deleted those two videos from youtube already. I still practice the deep stance, but not swinging the stick, just walking around the room.
 
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drop bear

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The following is NOT talking against you, just responding to some that kept saying I never even learn the basics.

Funny that I don't think that many people even know CASTING that I am practicing and no body talked about body motion until Tony. Not to sound ungrateful, I saw a lot of video that provided are so basic like how to swing a stick and all the fancy moves. I absolutely NOT interested. If you call those basic, No thank you.

You are right, I am learning self defense in real life, not a stick competition, performance. My concentration is how to strike fast, how to strike hard, NOT how to block people with stick, weapon, fighting in competition or anything. It is laughable to see some video shown that the person swing, then turn around a full circle before continue striking. It is pretty, I have to give it to those. I stop watching the video the moment I saw that already. I am not interested in performing on stage.

No offense, compare Casting that Lamont Glass and body motion what Tony Dismukes talked about, to me, those are HIGHER bar than those fancy stuffs that was shown in those videos. Same reason I spent MONTHS practicing just jab and reverse punch, concentrating on using legs, hips, shoulder to add force together. BUT at the same time, I laugh at those fancy katas. I never practice katas with all those unrealistic move that is absolutely useless. I looked for long time before I found a TKD school that was like kick boxing those days, no katas, no stupid things, just how to hit fast and how to hit hard.

Casting and body motion are ones I will spend months practicing them. These and smoother footwork is all I need at this point. My whole point of even practice with cane is because of all the attacks on older Chinese on the street. Not to go start a fight.


EDIT:
The only thing fancy that I do practice is moving around in deep horse stand with one leg forward bent and the back leg straight. Not that it is practical or useful, but it reduces pain on my knees and I find it help my balance with a stronger foundation. Actually that's what screwed me up on my first two videos in post #1 of this thread. I cannot use body motion with those deep stance and I messed up my body motion. Did not realize until I made those two videos. I since deleted those two videos from youtube already. I still practice the deep stance, but not swinging the stick, just walking around the room.

I was on line looking through stick sparring and they really only do about 2 or three things. And proficiency seems to be how well you can time them and game the other guy.
 
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