My TKD is not only kicks
- Thread starter Manny
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Manny
Senior Master
- Thread Starter
- #22
Well, no. You're making a very similar mistake that I think Manny might be making; taking your personal experience and generalizing it too much. WTF sport Taekwondo is basically kicking, period. When I trained at a WTF-style club in college the instructor, who was a Korean national and an international referee made the point of telling us more than once that in all his years of reffing (which included many international competitions) he'd only seen six punches scored for points.
But the fact of the matter is that WTF Taekwondo is geared to the Olympics and so many schools just do Olympic style sparring (even those who aren't sending elite atheletes to team trials or WC's which is odd but that's another topic entirely).
Other TKD orgs such as the ITF have international tournaments but their rule set actually encourages hand techniques, not just kicking. It's a matter of recognizing that there is a wider world out there besides the WTF. There are plenty of Kukkiwon certified instructors who would disagree with your statement, too, I think.
And yet, absolutely speaking, it's not necessary since TKD has many hand techniques, including many for close range fighting (and that doesn't include elbow strikes or kicking with the knee, I mean actual punches and strikes with the hand).
Crossing training can be good as long as one already has a firm foundation in their core style, of course, but what you are talking about only demonstrates a shortcoming in the training one receives, not in the style in which they train.
I agree with this sentiment whole heartedly. Conversely, however, it irritates me when people say Taekwon-Do is just kicks!
That's too bad as, from my personal experience, I'd definitely tell them yes. Very effective.
Pax,
Chris
Chris thank you and in some points you are rigth.
Basically in all the dojangs in my city area the TKD that is taugh is WTF, this means the training is mostly on kicks and kicks techs, leaving the SD besides. In the dojang I train SD is the minimun, that's why I am learning Kenpo cause it's more oriented to SD, this is my personal experience but I can affirm that if in my dojang SD was something equal to kicking or poomsae I will not have to take Kenpo lessons. My sambonim has his own way of teaching and he is not change it because of one student (me)., so instead of keep asking more SD I am having it at the kenpo dojo.
Yes TKD has a lot of hand techs,trows,take downs,etc but the fact is we use them barely inside dojang.
Why I just don't leave TKD? because I love it, yes I like to kick and to punch,and love the one step sparring,free sparring and the ho sisul techs (self defense), I want to do my second dan examn this july.
So I made the desicion to keep TKD and using the Kenpo to fullfill my need, in Kenpo Class I use some moves from TKD and when my sambonim give us a self defense class I use several Kenpo moves in TKD.
Kenpo has been very refreshing to me and has helping so much with my hands too, so that's why I take both classes.
TKD has so many things but sadly so much attention has given to the WTF/olimpic thing, I am not crazy if this is not true why so many posts about this?
Manny
KELLYG
2nd Black Belt
I think that TKD sometimes get a bad rap at having no self defense techniques. The popular misconception is that TKD especially WTF TKD is dedicated to all sport training, no self defense training at all. It depends on the school you go to, some teach mostly the sport side, some teach the full art, which includes self defense. I guess that I am lucky in the fact that our school has both and does both effectively. Manny I think that with your love of self defense that you will become a major asset to the school that you go to. I have heard you in several post say that in class you did so meting unexpected (like a kempo self defense move) and had students come to you later wanting to learn. Most excellent!!!
If TKD is all kicks then I better go home and learn more kicks, because at my age I tend to keep them low and hard and alot of hands techniques are coming. But than again I know nothing it is not like I have been doing a Martial Art for over forty years or maybe I have at my age we tend to forget.:rofl:
It started out as a sport; so, I would guess it would have to borrow from the already existing arts to be as well rounded as you say. Hwrang Do, and northern chinese Kung Fu come to mind. Not to mention a myriad a Japanese fighting concepts.
sean
dianhsuhe
Blue Belt
So do you think your Dojang is in the majority as far as "alot of hand techniques"?
TKD in GENERAL is not geared for self defense as much as most martial arts. < period
Do not take it as an insult but rather as an observation.
Maybe the TKD of today, but I have been involved in it got over 35 years and believe me it has S.D. all though it.
Just for the record you are right today dojammgs do not train the hands that much, but since hands are becoming part of the WTF now maybe it will start over again. Remember alot of us older guys remember what TKD was before the Olympics.
dianhsuhe
Blue Belt
A friend of mine invited me to his (TKD) black belt test years back and I was VERY impressed with the technical kicking display but could not get my head around the fact that during his entire test, that appeared to run from White belt all the way up, he never touched the other person, did not do even one takedown, sweep, throw, reap, hock, etc.
Also, his "uke" would execute the attack then stand there as still as a statue, no matter where the "strikes" were supposed to hit.
Maybe he was from a sport version of TKD, I think it was an ATA school but not positive.
James
Also, his "uke" would execute the attack then stand there as still as a statue, no matter where the "strikes" were supposed to hit.
Maybe he was from a sport version of TKD, I think it was an ATA school but not positive.
James
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ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I am lucky enough to train at a tkd school that emphasises self defence and has a really good mix of hand and kicking techniques and self defence. I have found that if you look around there are still plenty of schools out there like mine , they are not all wtf kicking schools. As far as range goes , when I first started in tkd I did have some concerns regarding close range attacks but since then I have realised that part of being really good at tkd (or any art for that matter) , is controlling the range of the fight. Anyone who gets beaten and uses the excuse that their art didnt allow for close range is missing the point that if they were any good they wouldnt have let their opponent get inside their desired range to begin with. I also agree with what someone else said on this thread regarding it being a myth that most confrontations start at close range. My experience has shown that most confrontations start with some yelling/talking etc and then escalates into something physical. As soon as any confrontation is on the cards you should be analysing exactly where the other person is and if they take a step forward you take one back unless you are going to attack. Basically , if you dont like someone being too close then dont let them get too close in the first place.
dianhsuhe
Blue Belt
Controlling the range? That is easier said than done. Have you tried it outside the Dojang? In my experience the majority of fights transcend kicking range in move quickly into striking, grappling range. By the time you realize you have the "gift of violence" on your hands, they are inside your kicks. It would be far easier to kiss your opponent than kick him effectively.
EVen if you decide to attack your opponent as he enters your kicking range (you are lawfully wrong) but on top of that, if you do not land that kick perfectly, you're toast.
This (fight ranges) is common knowledge I thought-
JWLuiza
Black Belt
I seem to remember a guy... I think his name was Royce.....
And I come from a kicking art and I agree 100% with your post.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
This is where most discussions break down regarding the "street". I would like to think that the average guy drunk in a bar picking a fight with you because you looked at his girlfriend does not have the skills of royce gracie. If you come up against an elite trained athlete who lives and breathes their art then you are screwed irrespective of what art you do and what ranges you like to fight in. I know there are guys on the "street" who are exceptional fighters , but they are the minority and most (not all) well trained martial artists do not go around starting fights. I was just trying to say, in my previous post, that if a conflict could start and you are not comfortable at close range then dont stand face to face yelling obscenities waiting for a fight to break out . Keep your distance , watch their eyes and legs and watch for sudden movements and be ready for when they attempt to get in your range and if you have experience and are well trained they will probably walk straight into your "zone" while attempting to get in closer.
JWLuiza
Black Belt
I just think it is suspect to think you can control distance 100% of the time. Altercations are variable, ugly, and whole bunch of other things than predictable. You'd also be surprised by the number of people who have learned at least a double leg takedown. Learning the sprawl is a good idea.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I totally agree , it is impossible to control distance 100% of the time. It is also impossible to control what weapons may get used, how many attackers there are , the skill level of the attackers etc etc. It will always be impossible to control distance at all times but there are a lot of things we can do and train to try and help the range suit us and I think the more experience someone has the more they are able to have some success with controlling distance.
Bruno@MT
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Kicking might also a bit harder when wearing actual clothes (I know I can't get past waist height when wearing jeans) or when there are people around you, limiting your maneuvering range. If you're standing in a crowd, you'll be hard pressed to kick properly without having your legs or feet catch on something.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
very true , I cant speak on behalf of every tkd practitioner but for me personally the highest kick I would throw on the "street" is a groin kick and even that would be rare , a kick to the top of the knee would be the most realistic I would think.
dianhsuhe
Blue Belt
I think this is the bone of contention if you will. One cannot choose these variables.
One must prepare for all ranges of combat, even my Aikido teacher says (and Aikido is generally a big area kind of art) if you cannot do your techniques in a small elevator or phone booth, they are not much good.
OP
Manny
Senior Master
- Thread Starter
- #39
I am not a grapler but the average guy i the street is not too, I am mainly a kicker. In the street I will try to keep the BG at bay with my kicks and even I can kick high with some kicks I would rather prefer use low kicks for some reasons, a kick to the groing can stop the fight for some precius time to reevaluta the confrontation and use any tech you want to finish the fight, a kick to the knee can incapacitate (if the BG can't walk he can not fight), a kick o several kickes are use to the legs the oponente will have numb (in pain) legs. However at short diatence I have elbows and knees, even head,fingers,punches arm locks,etc.
But even I go to the floor ( I don't like it I don't know how many friends the BG guy has and thus in the floor one or all can kick me badly) I know some moves to mount the BG to beat him.
All techs I have mentioned I learned in the TKD dojang, in the kenpo dojo I practiced them and much more in every week. In kenpo there is an old saying: "Distance is your best fried" and this tralstaes to me to create distance from kicks to keep the BG far enough to not harm me.
Mi fist post was to open some one eyes to not rely only in kicks, or pucnches or grapling only.
Manny
But even I go to the floor ( I don't like it I don't know how many friends the BG guy has and thus in the floor one or all can kick me badly) I know some moves to mount the BG to beat him.
All techs I have mentioned I learned in the TKD dojang, in the kenpo dojo I practiced them and much more in every week. In kenpo there is an old saying: "Distance is your best fried" and this tralstaes to me to create distance from kicks to keep the BG far enough to not harm me.
Mi fist post was to open some one eyes to not rely only in kicks, or pucnches or grapling only.
Manny
Perhaps it should be interpreted as understanding what range you need to be at to make your moves work. Rather than taking pot shots at eachother, close the distance and hurt this guy. Punches and kicks lose speed right around 70%; so get in there!%-}
Sean
