Multiple attackers in a parking lot...

[padre]

I've had the displeasure of being in these situations too many times, and never had any particular training in dealing with them "properly" but just learned through hundreds of fights about some of what simply doesn't work.

The last time I was in such a situation, a gang of teenagers was assaulting a few girls who were trying to get into their car.

I was wearing shower shoes, as I'd just stepped outside to have a smoke. I had to ditch those and go barefoot early on in the conflict in which I found myself engaged.

I have a deep, booming voice, and used it to 1) have someone call the police and 2) draw the thugs' attention away from the girls and onto me.

Although I *hoped* they would simply abandon their purposes, they simply came at me from six sides with an assortment of weapons. I could see chains and similar items in most hands, but one of them acted like he was reaching for a gun, so I went ahead and dashed him. Fortunately, it was a stone cold bluff.

The next kid caught me in the face with a chain, which was then mine, and I used to chase them down the road away from the girls while police closed in from all directions.

Final verdict: I got lucky.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I've had the displeasure of being in these situations too many times, and never had any particular training in dealing with them "properly" but just learned through hundreds of fights about some of what simply doesn't work.

The last time I was in such a situation, a gang of teenagers was assaulting a few girls who were trying to get into their car.

I was wearing shower shoes, as I'd just stepped outside to have a smoke. I had to ditch those and go barefoot early on in the conflict in which I found myself engaged.

I have a deep, booming voice, and used it to 1) have someone call the police and 2) draw the thugs' attention away from the girls and onto me.

Although I *hoped* they would simply abandon their purposes, they simply came at me from six sides with an assortment of weapons. I could see chains and similar items in most hands, but one of them acted like he was reaching for a gun, so I went ahead and dashed him. Fortunately, it was a stone cold bluff.

The next kid caught me in the face with a chain, which was then mine, and I used to chase them down the road away from the girls while police closed in from all directions.

Final verdict: I got lucky.

Hell, that's okay, sometimes "lucky" is more important than "good".

 

[Carol]

Use anything and everything to your advantage, including the environment and the element of surprise.

Once on a day off, I drove out to my instructor's place to sit in with his regular class. At the end of class everyone paired up for a step-sparring drill...I got paired with my instructor.

I didn't do very well, and go to the point where I was on the ground, kind of on my side. My instructor was straddling my upper body It was my turn to move but I felt one move away from being done for.

Until I heard the creak of the door, and saw a glimpse of a brown uniform - it was the UPS guy. Using him as a distraction, I cupped my hand drove a heelpalm in to my instructor's groin area. He immediately yelped and backed away, saying I won the match.

 

[bowser666]

geezer raises a very good point. Gang attacks do seem to be on the rise. I didn't used to think that much about it but in view of the trend it seems like I need to adjust my thinking. I was in a situation just a couple of weeks ago where I thought I might end up needing these skills. I was at a convenience store when 3 belligerent (and big) teenagers came into the store and started terrorizing the place. They were completely out of control and clearly looking for trouble. For some reason they kept looking at me. Maybe it's because I was the biggest guy in the place. The manager kicked them out of the store and called the police. I made sure they were gone before I went back to my car but what if they had decided to start a melee in the parking lot? I know they were harassing one of the female customers in the parking lot before they entered the store and I was already thinking about the possibility that I might have to intervene if they ganged up on someone. Thankfully nothing happened but I've been thinking about it ever since. Sadly, it seems there's a real bankruptcy of parenting skills in the US and the problem is getting worse all the time. There are a lot of really great teenagers in this country but there are also a lot of them that have basically been left alone to raise themselves. It's kind of like wild dogs. Few things are more dangerous than a pack of wild dogs. They're vicious and they have no fear of humans. Same with teenagers that have no home training. I'd hate to have to use my skills on somebody's kid but what choice would I have if I was surrounded by a pack of wild teenagers closing in for the kill?

Sadly every society has predators like that, its up to the nice guys to stand up for the people who can't do it for themselves. Its a tough spot to be in , since predator's have a tendency to have weapons. So if you help you can get hurt or killed, if you dont and something happens to the victim, you will feel just a bad for not helping. How these people become predators is where we need to attack !!! Prevention will save alot of lives.

I now will get off my soapbox

 

[Empty Hands]

I've had the displeasure of being in these situations too many times, and never had any particular training in dealing with them "properly" but just learned through hundreds of fights about some of what simply doesn't work.

Hundreds?

 

[padre]

Hundreds?

Yup, literally hundreds. Where I grew up, if you made it through a day without at least one solid beating, it was a very good day.

I had the crap beaten out of me routinely by individuals and groups until my late teens.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Hundreds?

I do not see anything so hard to believe with that..depending on the person and the environment.
I have been in hundreds of non structured "street", for lack of a better word, fights as well... not counting any before the age of 18.
11 seperate fights in one afternoon actually...on the most extreme day.
Some of us grew up with fighting being a way of life, not necessarily a way of survival, in my case more a case of adrenaline addiction...in other words...it was just too much fun!

 

[Deaf Smith]

What strategies do you apply in dealing with multiple attackers.

If they are big'uns, way bigger than me, then Glockdo is what they get. Disparency of force applies. And being Texas, you can stand your ground.

If no Glock is available, then pepper spray can really help even the odds. Spray as you back up and let them run into the pepper spray.

And if you were Mr. Phillips in that parking lot, how would you have handled the situation?

I'd tell them I'm a Republican.

Actually, it depends on how and when they attacked. Was there any cars about with antenne? Any bottles? Garbage can lids? Rocks? Did they get to surround you first? Can you stack them up? Is one of them stupid enough to get in front of the rest?

If all I had was my fist and feet and had to duke it out with some weenie would-be-toughs I'd have a go at it. If, though, they were big and strong, well I'd try the 'I'm a Republican' thing again as I attacked first.

Still, I prefer the Glock for such situations. You will find that if you present a gun when such criminals aproach, they tend to get rubber feet and run.

Deaf

 

[MA-Caver]

While unlike Padre I haven't been in hundreds of fights, I've seen my share of unwanted confrontations.
I do like Celtic Crippler's list and agree with it on a lot of points, just not in the original order given this (below) is my prioritized list of the same points.

(1) Take the first opportunity to escape to safety
(2) Make note of your environment..
(3) Use your environment.
(4) Remain calm and focused.
(5) Move. Don't remain static; be mobile. Use your footwork
(6) Strike the closest attacker first and make it count..

I would however place RUN at the top, and I challenge ANYONE here to say it's cowardice. Taking note of the environment HAS to be before using it... how can you use it if you don't know what's there?
Staying calm and focused best as you can on all the attackers, narrowing the field of focus to the nearest yet being aware of where the others are.
Keeping yourself moving prevents them from getting a "target lock" on you, also keeping moving doesn't mean in a circle but for me it means getting closer and closer to an avenue of escape or into a place of (relative) safety (building or car -- so to blow the horn constantly to draw attention to it...thwarting the attackers plan to hit you hard and run without witnesses to ident them later)
Striking the closest attacker first and making it count. I also agree with the statement paraphrasing Ed Parker to do as much damage as possible for the "shock value" more than anything else. Yet that in of by itself CAN backfire as the attackers were just bent on just harassing you for kicks without really wanting to make contact (some still do) yet the sight/smell of blood would be like a cut finger in a pool of sharks.
I'll paraphrase Bruce Lee who (Enter The Dragon) talked about how a "fight is like a small play, when my opponent expands I contract when they contract I expand and when the opportunity to hit comes, I do not for it does it all by itself..."

Several other statements MJS and Black Lion had good points, and someone said that MA isn't always about the physical and I agree with that... sometimes the winner of a fight is the one who wants it the most and sometimes it's the guy who keeps a cool head and thinks his way through it (mind-no-mind). Lee (again) said that the mind is the strongest weapon any MA-ist has.
Granted while Lee mentioned that it's a lot easier to "take a .45 and BANG!..." I have to disagree with the "gun is a lot easier... maybe it stops the fight for sure a lot faster... but it lands YOU in a lot more hot-water and a LOT harder to convince that you were defending yourself to a jury even if you were out-numbered. The video HELPED Mr Phillips avoid any mis-direction on who started who and proved the self-defense angle, but if there were NO video and a gun was used... how would ANYONE know that it wasn't something else that spurred it? Bad drug-deal? Drunken altercation? Etc. etc.
Mr Phillips was lucky that no firearm was involved and that there was a video for LEOs to examine and determine the self-defense angle in Mr Phillips' favor.
I also do not subscribe to the "kill or be killed" attitude unless it is without a doubt that it is life threatening. That is based on judgement and that is based on experience. Now if those guys are saying "...gonna kill you *expletitve/racial slur* then yeah it's life threatening -- in the eyes of the LAW. That is something that should always be considered. CYA even in a life threatening encounter.

Sadly every society has predators like that, its up to the nice guys to stand up for the people who can't do it for themselves. Its a tough spot to be in , since predator's have a tendency to have weapons. So if you help you can get hurt or killed, if you dont and something happens to the victim, you will feel just a bad for not helping. How these people become predators is where we need to attack !!! Prevention will save alot of lives.

I now will get off my soapbox

No, you stay right on that soap-box there bub... that sounded right on. Attacking the predators before they become predators. So many misspent youths out there needing the RIGHT kind of guidance and role models instead of Neo-Nazi wanna-bes and old timer gang-bangas fresh outta prison telling kids to be hard-core mo-fo's.
Being an example that kids can admire and being a better example over the ones that the kids would admire if there aren't enough good people to assume the mantle of being good role-models.

 

[padre]

I will say that I learned a few important things in the difficult youth to which I referred.

1) I learned how to take a beating and get on with my day.
2) I developed a lot of experience in preventing many of those beatings from happening in the future.
3) I learned respect for life and an unwavering resolve not to let this happen to people around me.
4) Over the years I've learned that most of the people who used to torment me wound up dead or in Parchman (state penitentiary) rather early on. Pattern violence does tend to catch up with people.
5) I learned that almost anything can be used as a weapon.
6) I learned that people's big brothers will often go beat the crap out of them for giving you a beating if you ask them to.
7) I also learned that most acts of violence do not turn grisly. Attackers usually do not set out to break your arm, stick a knife in you, or shoot you. When attacked, statistics are actually in your favor.
8) Oh, and I learned that if you whip out a knife (not in a gun fight) and say, "Well, all of you will get me, but one of you has to be first," the odds of actual violence dramatically reduce instantaneously.

I haven't been in an actual fight in well over a decade. When I reached adulthood and had some choice over where I was living, I made a point of living and working away from all that. And on those rare cases in which I've felt vulnerable since then, I've displayed readiness in a variety of ways.

I didn't decide to take up taekwondo for self-defense, but because I accepted a free lesson and found the instructors, school, and all the kicking to be very agreeable. heh

 

[youngboot]

I just fisnhing posting Thread called worse case scenario I di't see this before i post. lol Very good info.

 

[geezer]

I would however place RUN at the top, and I challenge ANYONE here to say it's cowardice.

I agree. Maybe it's greater cowardice not to recognize the reality of of facing a gang attack and not being able to face up to your own physical limitations.

I remember being in a situation like that. I could have stood my ground and fought. I was armed with a concealed pair of nunchakus (this was in the 70's, OK?). Instead I high-tailed it across the parking lot and into a Pizza Hut. The guys that were after me had no intention of starting a brawl inside a restaurant with video surveillance and full of people. I hung out till a couple of my friends showed up. Then the three guys who were after me disappeared, seeing that the odds were more even. Result? Conflict avoided.

Now what would have happened if I had stood my ground and fought? I would have had to resort to using my illegal weapon. Either I would have seriously hurt a couple of the guys threatening me, and "won", got arrested, expelled from school a couple of weeks before graduation, and had to face charges and possible lawsuits, probably as an adult. Or, I would have got the crap beat out of me, and still probably gotten expelled from school for fighting... and, did I mention, for ditching classes that afternoon!

Or, to respond to Deaf's signature line, "e tan e epi tas". We don't live in Sparta, dude!

 

[celtic_crippler]

I once read an article in Black Belt Mag on Ed Parker (a god among men, one of the true pioneers) and to add to what the Kenpo guys have always mentioned Ed stated that in a group attack the first person you take out must be done in as bloody and brutal a fashion possible to dissuade the other attackers. Funny part is, in the picture that went with the article he was throwing a straight punch to the side of the attackers nose and the caption was somethign to the effect of "Won't put him down but the blood spray will scare the whole group."

The more I see of street fights the more disgusted I get. It's not the wild west anymore boys, it's not about a man standing tall, it's about who's got the largest pack of wolves.

Us kenpo folks have been accused of being dirty on more than one occasion. We're definately a sick bunch. LOL

There's never been anything pretty about a street fight.

Remember: multiple attacker situations are DEADLY FORCE situations...treat them as such.

Abso-freaking-lutely! Never forget that.

 

[Omar B]

Crippler - I've got no problem with fighting dirty man, Kenpo always intrigued me for that reason. My mantra is "Every day in every way be more like Frank Castle."

As for this thread. It's so odd that I've got a story to connect with it now. My brother in law got attacked and beaten pretty badly this morning on his way to work. Broke his nose, busted up his face, kicked him in the gut and back when he was down (as they are wont to do).

He's a construction worker so he leaves for work early and he stayed over his mother's house last night because they had people over he wanted to visit with. Walking to the train station at 4:00 AM he was attacked by these 5 guys, they musta thought he had money. Dude, only had his back with his tools and his Metrocard to get on the train. Those are all the details I've gotten thus far from my sister.

 

[searcher]

I have not read the entire thread, so if my "strategy" is mentioned I appologize.

For myself, if it is risk of death or permenent bodily harm, I use my firearm. Plain and not very simple. There are reasons I carry and this is one of them. I know many will have remarks and such, but I am not going to maimed or killed. End of story.

I will not be happy about having to do it, but I will do it.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Crippler - I've got no problem with fighting dirty man, Kenpo always intrigued me for that reason. My mantra is "Every day in every way be more like Frank Castle."

As for this thread. It's so odd that I've got a story to connect with it now. My brother in law got attacked and beaten pretty badly this morning on his way to work. Broke his nose, busted up his face, kicked him in the gut and back when he was down (as they are wont to do).

He's a construction worker so he leaves for work early and he stayed over his mother's house last night because they had people over he wanted to visit with. Walking to the train station at 4:00 AM he was attacked by these 5 guys, they musta thought he had money. Dude, only had his back with his tools and his Metrocard to get on the train. Those are all the details I've gotten thus far from my sister.

Love the Punisher.

Sorry to hear about your brother in law. I hope he has no major injuries and recovers well.

I have not read the entire thread, so if my "strategy" is mentioned I appologize.

For myself, if it is risk of death or permenent bodily harm, I use my firearm. Plain and not very simple. There are reasons I carry and this is one of them. I know many will have remarks and such, but I am not going to maimed or killed. End of story.

I will not be happy about having to do it, but I will do it.

If I'm carrying then no doubt, I'll draw down on multiple attackers in a heart beat. I think we're speaking more to some simple rules or things you can do when you don't have a firearm handy.

 

[Omar B]

Love the Punisher.
Sorry to hear about your brother in law. I hope he has no major injuries and recovers well.

Thanks man. Thing with Larry is, even when He and my sister shared the house with me he would never want to go out and train. He's got no MA training at all, while I've got 2 BBs and my sister has 1. Even in my whole year of Bujinkan obsession he wouldn't even come into the back yard.

 

[Empty Hands]

Thanks man. Thing with Larry is, even when He and my sister shared the house with me he would never want to go out and train. He's got no MA training at all, while I've got 2 BBs and my sister has 1. Even in my whole year of Bujinkan obsession he wouldn't even come into the back yard.

That might change now...

 

[MA-Caver]

I will say that I learned a few important things in the difficult youth to which I referred.

I haven't been in an actual fight in well over a decade. When I reached adulthood and had some choice over where I was living, I made a point of living and working away from all that. And on those rare cases in which I've felt vulnerable since then, I've displayed readiness in a variety of ways.

I didn't decide to take up taekwondo for self-defense, but because I accepted a free lesson and found the instructors, school, and all the kicking to be very agreeable. heh

1) I learned how to take a beating and get on with my day.

I learned how to take a beating and give it back in spades or at least have those limp away from me or holding a limb. This later translated to my not taking any crap off of nobody... probably why I haven't kept a job for long periods of time... but I'm getting better.

2) I developed a lot of experience in preventing many of those beatings from happening in the future.

Aye, that I have too. Most of the fights that I COULD'VE been in I've managed to "bugs bunny" my outta them (fast double talking). Then beating a hasty.

3) I learned respect for life and an unwavering resolve not to let this happen to people around me.

I too despise anyone standing around watching someone else get theirs when they didn't deserve it. I haven't gotten to play Knight or Saint in a long time but I've still the resolve to step in where I see things not fair or manly.

4) Over the years I've learned that most of the people who used to torment me wound up dead or in Parchman (state penitentiary) rather early on. Pattern violence does tend to catch up with people.

I've grown up with my own tormentors and to this date I've no idea whats happened to them. I got on with my own life and forgotten (or rather) left behind all those days getting the crap beaten out of me between classes in the halls or bathrooms or wherever I got caught. I've learned to let it go... but took the lessons learned with me.

5) I learned that almost anything can be used as a weapon.

This is true, but I've had to learn from a fellow MA-ist.

6) I learned that people's big brothers will often go beat the crap out of them for giving you a beating if you ask them to.

I've never had to ask my older brother, who never lost a fight to exact vengeance in my name, but he did... usually waiting once for two years before the guy that beaten me made the mistake of messing with my brother and got his clocks cleaned ... well. The last few punches and kicks were for me, as in "hey remember my brother??"

7) I also learned that most acts of violence do not turn grisly. Attackers usually do not set out to break your arm, stick a knife in you, or shoot you. When attacked, statistics are actually in your favor.

This is also true in my experience, yet still do you want to take that 1% chance?

8) Oh, and I learned that if you whip out a knife (not in a gun fight) and say, "Well, all of you will get me, but one of you has to be first," the odds of actual violence dramatically reduce instantaneously.

Sometimes and maybe back in the day. Now-a-days they're more... violence escalation proned than before. Whipping out a knife may get you in worse when all they wanted to do was just whup your *** but over the last few years it's "OH! NOW you go and pull a knife on me huh boah? Welllll c'mon then! " and there's a scary smile on their faces.
So you'd better be ready to face manslaughter charges.

 

[MA-Caver]

Us kenpo folks have been accused of being dirty on more than one occasion. We're definitely a sick bunch. LOL

I've been a uke for a EPAK-ist for a couple of years and I don't see any thing sick about the techs used... I see them as effective.

There's never been anything pretty about a street fight.

Amen.