47MartialMan
Master of Arts
Yeah, Vader-define father. Where have you been to raise a son?
more than one sensei at a dojo?
- Thread starter Sin
- Start date
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
Adept,
What I am talking about is the traditional Korean Tae Kwon Do Way. If you practice a traditional martial art, you practice the manners, philosophy, etiquette and culture of the native country as imparted into that art.
That does NOT mean that you become Korean. Far from it. However, there are values and ways of thinking in traditional Tae Kwon Do that are there because of where it came from. Namely, Korean thought. One of these is the concept of following your Instructor as you would your father. Now, if you do NOT subscribe to the traditional concept, as I am well aware you do not, it would be meaningless to you. Bruce Lee said "absorb what is useful." That worked for Bruce Lee, who seemed only to be interested in fighting. It probably also helped contribute to the fact that he died when he was 33. He was not a very peaceful person.
Also, don't assume that traditionalists are slaves. We are not. A slave cannot leave his Master under penalty of death or severe injury. My students can leave anytime. I've never said "You must stay under me." They stay under me because they choose to. If they go to another instructor without permission, I will no longer consider them my student, but they can still leave. Some of them have also seen how other instructors operate. They've never come back and said "Why don't you do this?" In fact, the ones who have witnessed other instructors from different organizations have told me how lucky they feel to be under me. So I must be doing something right.
What I am talking about is the traditional Korean Tae Kwon Do Way. If you practice a traditional martial art, you practice the manners, philosophy, etiquette and culture of the native country as imparted into that art.
That does NOT mean that you become Korean. Far from it. However, there are values and ways of thinking in traditional Tae Kwon Do that are there because of where it came from. Namely, Korean thought. One of these is the concept of following your Instructor as you would your father. Now, if you do NOT subscribe to the traditional concept, as I am well aware you do not, it would be meaningless to you. Bruce Lee said "absorb what is useful." That worked for Bruce Lee, who seemed only to be interested in fighting. It probably also helped contribute to the fact that he died when he was 33. He was not a very peaceful person.
Also, don't assume that traditionalists are slaves. We are not. A slave cannot leave his Master under penalty of death or severe injury. My students can leave anytime. I've never said "You must stay under me." They stay under me because they choose to. If they go to another instructor without permission, I will no longer consider them my student, but they can still leave. Some of them have also seen how other instructors operate. They've never come back and said "Why don't you do this?" In fact, the ones who have witnessed other instructors from different organizations have told me how lucky they feel to be under me. So I must be doing something right.
47MartialMan
Master of Arts
Somewhat agree.MichiganTKD said:
But the students that went to "look" at other instructors, were they under your tutelage first?
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
Yes.
And they didn't go to test the waters, so to speak, usually they just happened to be in the area when another intructor was teaching. Could be several ways of doing this. Recommendation from a friend (Is this guy any good?), being in a gymnasium that another instructor uses during a sports meet, vacation. Sometimes it is simple curiosity. I used to do the same thing myself. Didn't go to another Instructor to learn, but wanted to see who he was and what his deal was. Always came back grateful for where I practiced.
And they didn't go to test the waters, so to speak, usually they just happened to be in the area when another intructor was teaching. Could be several ways of doing this. Recommendation from a friend (Is this guy any good?), being in a gymnasium that another instructor uses during a sports meet, vacation. Sometimes it is simple curiosity. I used to do the same thing myself. Didn't go to another Instructor to learn, but wanted to see who he was and what his deal was. Always came back grateful for where I practiced.
47MartialMan
Master of Arts
But you teaching them first could have given them a subconcious degree of biased comparison?
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
Well I would hope so. Nobody wants a student with no sense of loyalty. True instructors (as opposed to coaches) put a great deal of work into ensuring that their students are taught well on many levels. I certainly hope they are biased toward me! I would consider myself a failure if my students didn't look at me any differently than the guy down the road.
47MartialMan
Master of Arts
It happens that students like their FIRST teacher and set out for comparisons. it can be confusing for them if the first one was bad. No offense directed to you, just a general statement
Adept
Master Black Belt
Again I ask, says who? Who insists that you must have only one instructor? When did they say that? Where were they when they said it? Why did they say it?MichiganTKD said:
Many civilisations around the globe have many examples of multiple fathers. Orphaned children in many areas of the world became children of the village as a whole, children who lose their father at an early age or whose mothers have re-married, etc. It is possible to have multiple father figures.
Genetics does not the father make, but I'm certain that wasn't your position.
Having said that, I once again ask, who? when? where? why?
Lets not fall into the trap of the ham...
A woman is cooking a christmas ham. Before she puts it in the oven, she slices an inches thickness of each end. Her daughter sees this and asks why.
Her mother says she isn't sure, she does it because her mother and her grandmother did it.
A few days later, the daughter is speaking to the grandmother and asks here about it.
"I dont know why your mother and grandmother do it, but I always did it because the ham was too big to fit in the pan!"
If there really is some ancient text describing a ban against mutliple instructors, then fair enough. Thats how you want to train, and I wont hold it against you.
Despite my current training ethos and methods, I started my martial arts career in traditional TKD. So I do know where you are coming from, and I can appreciate TMA for what it is.
Without trying to drag the thread off topic, I think that is a gross over-simplification.
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
Matt Stone said:
First of all I respect my teachers opinion for several reasons. Mainly because he is on in years and has gained a lot of knowledge. On things pertaining to MA I trust his judgement on personal matters it depends on what it is. I would not substitute him for a trained, licensed counselor.
Matt,
You hit the nail right on the head.
The whole thing about someones MA teacher qualifying as some sort of life councilor has always struck me a bit as being chop sockey at best.
Does that attitude come from too many bad kung fu movies??? Could be.
I have always trained by the adage too many cooks spoil the pot or if you chase 2 rabbits you wont catch either and just go hungry.
Here is an example:
If someone wants to learn stuff for tippy-tap tournaments their self-defense skills will suffer. This is not my opinion but a fact .the fact is you will fight the way you train and if you train for tournaments where most self-defense techniques are not allowed your self-defense skills will not be used and therefore suffer because of it. It would take pages to go into the idiosyncrasies of why the two are different and why they are not compatible so I will not.
So if you have one teacher teaching tournament style techniques and one teacher teaching serious self-defense skills they have a different agenda.
This thread has reinforced my conclusion that a majority of the practicing MA people dont understand what it takes to be a serious student and to train diligently. I am sure someone will claim that they do train seriously and diligently but judging from the majority of posts here I would strongly disagree since most of what I have read seems to focus on what they can receive on a platter from teachers instead of what they can earn and learn.
Far better a dedicated grappling instructor than your sensei going to a seminar and then proclaiming himself a 'grappling expert'.
This shows openess and good judgement on your teacher's part. Traditional (not sport) karate is designed to prevent grappling - that's what all the low stances, punches from the hips and rising blocks are actually about. A little grappling will confirm this.
If your sensei can make things work with this instructor then your training can only improve.
This shows openess and good judgement on your teacher's part. Traditional (not sport) karate is designed to prevent grappling - that's what all the low stances, punches from the hips and rising blocks are actually about. A little grappling will confirm this.
If your sensei can make things work with this instructor then your training can only improve.
OP
Sin
2nd Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #51
RRouuselot said:
I haven't posted in a wile, hence the late post, also i sometimes do not read all of the posts. but all post are appresiated none the less.
Honestly, what i learn is a mixed martial art. based on several arts....RyuKyu, Akido, and Karate-do.
And you, Robert, know who my instructor is. although I will repeat his name only for there sake. Sensei Livingston.
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
Bod said:
Uuhhh....not really.
I think you need to investigate why karate uses low stances, punches from the hips and rising blocks.......
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
Lots of quotes from lots of folks. Please pardon the lack of references to who said what; I prepped my response in MS Word so I could go back to it during breaks at work...
There is nothing wrong with that statement at all... While I dont believe in obsequious displays of respect just because so and so is a black belt (a black belt really doesn't qualify you for anything, much less more respect than any bum on the street), being courteous toward a visiting instructor, recognizing that individual for their accomplishments, is fine.
The only thing that an instructor is responsible for is the training of his/her students in the techniques and standards of that style. Providing life counseling, advice on personal situations, etc., are beyond his/her concerns. Perhaps once a lifelong relationship has been established the student may want to prevail on the teachers longer well of experience, thats one thing. For a teacher to assume that, because he or she is a martial arts teacher, he/she necessarily has an inbuilt calling toward moral and ethical instruction and supervision, is another expression of the Mr. Miyagi and Daniel-san fantasy. Dave Lowry wrote an excellent column about this in Black Belt ragazine a few years back...
Case in point... Ive known my teacher for nearly 20 years. Over that time, Ive gotten to know him and I trust his insight in certain areas. If I have a question, I know I can go to him as a resource, like I could go to my parents, an uncle, etc. He doesnt, however, make a show of getting involved in my life, offering unsolicited advice, passing judgment on the actions of students, etc. It isnt his place to do that.
The teacher that assumes it is his/her place to do so, assumes too much...
In whose culture? This is the Miyagi fantasy, and the out-Asianing the Asians behavior, rearing their ugly heads again. Your students (and mine as well) pay for their instruction. We provide a service in a service oriented economy. We cannot dictate who they go to for what service. In American culture, we go to the person that will give us what we need. You are expecting your students (with the above cited behavior) to adopt the cultural norms and mores from an alien culture on no other authority than yours... an authority that does not carry any real weight. It really is akin to the Jiffy Lube guy saying that you should never go to another mechanic unless you ask his permission first. Who is he to place that restriction on you? We might not like a promising student "going over to the competition," but it really isn't our choice...
If you have a long standing relationship with someone, a friend lets say, and that friend offers you something, perhaps help in moving your house, are you honor bound to accept it? No. By our culture, we can choose how to do things ourselves. If a doctor gives you a certain prognosis, we get a second opinion. If we dont like the advice an attorney gives us, we release him and obtain the services of another. There isnt much in our culture that supports your version of assumed responsibility.
Thats hilarious!!! Im not a MMAist!!! Ive studied a traditional Chinese style since 1985! I have lived in Asia (Korea from 1989 1990, Japan from 1999 2002, and Im going back to Korea in May), and I think Im at least a little aware of Asian cultural etiquette. But the point of it all is that Im an American, living in America, and as such, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Okinawan, etc., cultural patterns of behavior are affectations by martial arts students. They are not part of our societal upbringing, and are 95% of the time misunderstood by those people who force them on their students! For that matter, check the title of this thread! Two sensei in one dojo? Nope. If you want to get traditional, there can only be one, and it is his/her dojo, period. "Traditionally" speaking, there'd never be a second instructor brought in, especially if it were from another style! More on that later...
Unless that person opens their mind fully and realizes what things are beyond their place, knowledge and training. Heck, if your students are content with your mucking about in their lives, fine. I prefer not to burden my students with my advice and I stay out of their lives unless they ask me for something they have enough to worry about on their own without deciding whether they are hurting my feelings for not obeying foreign patterns of etiquette.
Instructors have agendas, especially when their art clashes with the stated objectives, methods, and theories of another art. Not all MAists, as we can see readily via the internet, are the banner bearers for ethical conduct, nor do they necessarily accept other arts as equals. In those instances when two or more instructors of significantly different traditions partner up, often there will be at least one whose genuine intentions are hidden... Thats just the way real life is.
Adept has said it well. The student is responsible for his/her own behavior. Sure, if the instructor is attempting to pass on some of the cultural identity that may go along with his/her art, more power to him/her. But the student does not have to behave as if he/she were from that country/culture/tradition, nor does the instructor need to monitor that students behavior to ensure that the student conducts him/herself responsibly. Not the teachers job, plain and simple, and it isn't part of our culture as Americans.
Michigan TKDs approach is admirable, but I think he errs when he makes the assumption that his students want to behave as Koreans. Pass on the info, fine. Help the students understand the cultural background against which TKD developed. But remember they are Americans, not Koreans, and expect them to behave as such. The follow your instructor as you would your father bit is a real stretch, and I think is one of the contributing factors to the close-mindedness of many TKDists. They believe, hook, line and sinker, what Sabumnim tells them, never questioning whether Sabumnim might not know it all, or whether he might have his own agenda in keeping his students insulated from other thoughts. Further, he said:
Since when does your student need your permission to go someplace else? As an American businessman, you reserve the right to refuse service to potential customers, but would I need to ask my cable provider, or my internet service provider, to go someplace else for service? What about my long distance plan? You assume too much of the burdens from the culture your art originated in, and try too hard to enforce that behavior on people who do not live within that culture. Again, trying to out-Asian the Asians. Understand that to a great degree, the traditional notion of not going to other teachers was a mechanism by which the teacher preserved his secrets intact, and prevented others from learning what he knew. It kept his students subservient to him, prevented their learning anything to challenge his power base, and all in all did more to isolate and undermine the Way than it did to enforce it. Please, contradict this and cite your proof
M TKD, please qualify this comment:
Why is this loyalty important? I think youll find in short order, your answer(s) will support what I said above, while they will fall short of qualifying any high-minded ideals.
Remember, folks, we don't live in feudal Asia. We live in the 21st century, an age where cultural identity is what we make of it, an age where "traditional" means only what it is taken to mean. Heck, music from the 80s is termed "nostalgic" now, Kyokushin is considered a "traditional" style (though it isn't much more than 50 years old yet), and there are folks who argue that even JKD is developing its own "traditions."
Do what you want with your training, learn what you want, and learn it from whomever you choose. But as teachers we have to know when to draw the line, stop playing make-believe, and stick to doing what we are qualified to do...
Enjoy.
There is nothing wrong with that statement at all... While I dont believe in obsequious displays of respect just because so and so is a black belt (a black belt really doesn't qualify you for anything, much less more respect than any bum on the street), being courteous toward a visiting instructor, recognizing that individual for their accomplishments, is fine.
The only thing that an instructor is responsible for is the training of his/her students in the techniques and standards of that style. Providing life counseling, advice on personal situations, etc., are beyond his/her concerns. Perhaps once a lifelong relationship has been established the student may want to prevail on the teachers longer well of experience, thats one thing. For a teacher to assume that, because he or she is a martial arts teacher, he/she necessarily has an inbuilt calling toward moral and ethical instruction and supervision, is another expression of the Mr. Miyagi and Daniel-san fantasy. Dave Lowry wrote an excellent column about this in Black Belt ragazine a few years back...
Case in point... Ive known my teacher for nearly 20 years. Over that time, Ive gotten to know him and I trust his insight in certain areas. If I have a question, I know I can go to him as a resource, like I could go to my parents, an uncle, etc. He doesnt, however, make a show of getting involved in my life, offering unsolicited advice, passing judgment on the actions of students, etc. It isnt his place to do that.
The teacher that assumes it is his/her place to do so, assumes too much...
In whose culture? This is the Miyagi fantasy, and the out-Asianing the Asians behavior, rearing their ugly heads again. Your students (and mine as well) pay for their instruction. We provide a service in a service oriented economy. We cannot dictate who they go to for what service. In American culture, we go to the person that will give us what we need. You are expecting your students (with the above cited behavior) to adopt the cultural norms and mores from an alien culture on no other authority than yours... an authority that does not carry any real weight. It really is akin to the Jiffy Lube guy saying that you should never go to another mechanic unless you ask his permission first. Who is he to place that restriction on you? We might not like a promising student "going over to the competition," but it really isn't our choice...
If you have a long standing relationship with someone, a friend lets say, and that friend offers you something, perhaps help in moving your house, are you honor bound to accept it? No. By our culture, we can choose how to do things ourselves. If a doctor gives you a certain prognosis, we get a second opinion. If we dont like the advice an attorney gives us, we release him and obtain the services of another. There isnt much in our culture that supports your version of assumed responsibility.
Thats hilarious!!! Im not a MMAist!!! Ive studied a traditional Chinese style since 1985! I have lived in Asia (Korea from 1989 1990, Japan from 1999 2002, and Im going back to Korea in May), and I think Im at least a little aware of Asian cultural etiquette. But the point of it all is that Im an American, living in America, and as such, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Okinawan, etc., cultural patterns of behavior are affectations by martial arts students. They are not part of our societal upbringing, and are 95% of the time misunderstood by those people who force them on their students! For that matter, check the title of this thread! Two sensei in one dojo? Nope. If you want to get traditional, there can only be one, and it is his/her dojo, period. "Traditionally" speaking, there'd never be a second instructor brought in, especially if it were from another style! More on that later...
Unless that person opens their mind fully and realizes what things are beyond their place, knowledge and training. Heck, if your students are content with your mucking about in their lives, fine. I prefer not to burden my students with my advice and I stay out of their lives unless they ask me for something they have enough to worry about on their own without deciding whether they are hurting my feelings for not obeying foreign patterns of etiquette.
Instructors have agendas, especially when their art clashes with the stated objectives, methods, and theories of another art. Not all MAists, as we can see readily via the internet, are the banner bearers for ethical conduct, nor do they necessarily accept other arts as equals. In those instances when two or more instructors of significantly different traditions partner up, often there will be at least one whose genuine intentions are hidden... Thats just the way real life is.
Adept has said it well. The student is responsible for his/her own behavior. Sure, if the instructor is attempting to pass on some of the cultural identity that may go along with his/her art, more power to him/her. But the student does not have to behave as if he/she were from that country/culture/tradition, nor does the instructor need to monitor that students behavior to ensure that the student conducts him/herself responsibly. Not the teachers job, plain and simple, and it isn't part of our culture as Americans.
Michigan TKDs approach is admirable, but I think he errs when he makes the assumption that his students want to behave as Koreans. Pass on the info, fine. Help the students understand the cultural background against which TKD developed. But remember they are Americans, not Koreans, and expect them to behave as such. The follow your instructor as you would your father bit is a real stretch, and I think is one of the contributing factors to the close-mindedness of many TKDists. They believe, hook, line and sinker, what Sabumnim tells them, never questioning whether Sabumnim might not know it all, or whether he might have his own agenda in keeping his students insulated from other thoughts. Further, he said:
Since when does your student need your permission to go someplace else? As an American businessman, you reserve the right to refuse service to potential customers, but would I need to ask my cable provider, or my internet service provider, to go someplace else for service? What about my long distance plan? You assume too much of the burdens from the culture your art originated in, and try too hard to enforce that behavior on people who do not live within that culture. Again, trying to out-Asian the Asians. Understand that to a great degree, the traditional notion of not going to other teachers was a mechanism by which the teacher preserved his secrets intact, and prevented others from learning what he knew. It kept his students subservient to him, prevented their learning anything to challenge his power base, and all in all did more to isolate and undermine the Way than it did to enforce it. Please, contradict this and cite your proof
M TKD, please qualify this comment:
Why is this loyalty important? I think youll find in short order, your answer(s) will support what I said above, while they will fall short of qualifying any high-minded ideals.
Remember, folks, we don't live in feudal Asia. We live in the 21st century, an age where cultural identity is what we make of it, an age where "traditional" means only what it is taken to mean. Heck, music from the 80s is termed "nostalgic" now, Kyokushin is considered a "traditional" style (though it isn't much more than 50 years old yet), and there are folks who argue that even JKD is developing its own "traditions."
Do what you want with your training, learn what you want, and learn it from whomever you choose. But as teachers we have to know when to draw the line, stop playing make-believe, and stick to doing what we are qualified to do...
Enjoy.
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
RRouuselot said:
[sarcasm]We do Naihanchi so we can fight on rice paddy dikes and up against walls, right?[/sarcasm]
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
OF course....because it was invented by peasants!!!Matt Stone said:
IMO, I feel that if a student is training under instructor "A", and he wants to also train under instructor "B" at another school, why not let him? I strongly encourage cross training or cross referencing, but only once they've had a good base in their first art.
Something along these same lines has happened to me in the past. One of my Kenpo instructors was also ranked in Arnis. I however, had an Arnis instructor that I liked, and I chose to train under him. My Kenpo inst. could not seem to understand why I'd want to go somewhere else, when he offered the same thing. My theory was...I was more than loyal to my Kenpo inst. I taught at the school many hours a week, I always spoke highly of the people there, always helped to promote events that the school was having, etc., but I should also be able to do things in my personal life outside of the school. I shouldn't have to 'clear' who I train Arnis with by my Kenpo inst. Again, I was loyal to that school, but I should be able to have a life outside of it too.
There are many different things out there. That being said, I think that if someone wants to go out and see what else is out there, they should be able to.
Mike
Something along these same lines has happened to me in the past. One of my Kenpo instructors was also ranked in Arnis. I however, had an Arnis instructor that I liked, and I chose to train under him. My Kenpo inst. could not seem to understand why I'd want to go somewhere else, when he offered the same thing. My theory was...I was more than loyal to my Kenpo inst. I taught at the school many hours a week, I always spoke highly of the people there, always helped to promote events that the school was having, etc., but I should also be able to do things in my personal life outside of the school. I shouldn't have to 'clear' who I train Arnis with by my Kenpo inst. Again, I was loyal to that school, but I should be able to have a life outside of it too.
There are many different things out there. That being said, I think that if someone wants to go out and see what else is out there, they should be able to.
Mike
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
RRouuselot said:
Yeah, I remember them... The ones that created karotty as a response to the invading samurai. They engaged the mounted, armed, and armored soldiers from the ground. They trained their hands and feet to break boards so they could break through the samurai's armor, and they trained to kick far higher than a person's head (including jumping kicks) so they could kick the horseman off his mount...
Fine example of getting info from one source and one source only. I know some folks (including a KATUSA I served with while in Korea the first time; he'd trained in TKD since he was a small child, and he spouted the jump kicky thing above to me... Whatever...) who genuinely believe this drivel.
There is a guy I've recently run into who claims that traditional martial arts, specifically TKD, was never taught with contact. He knows that because his Korean teacher told him so...
Just gotta love that teacher=father relationship.
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
Matt,
You sound just like the know-nothings I went to school with, the ones I would never dream of talking about martial arts with because it was obvious they considered traditional training laughable.
I am not saying that a traditional instructor needs to know all about life and be a life adviser to students. But you have this superficial attitude that the only thing an instructor is good for is teaching technique. That is not an instructor that is a coach. A coach's job is to bring student's technique to accomplish a mission-usually winning matches.
This is what DO means-a martial art as a Way of Life to better yourself as a student and as a person. You may think of it an outdated anachronism, and your posting suggest more than a little anti-Eastern bigotry. But the practice of traditional martial arts serves an important purpose-a solid foundation to help you through life. I wish there was no need for it. The fact is, for many students in our organization, mine as well as other instructors', this traditional guidance is often the ONLY guidance they have. We provide guidance that many times their parents don't give them. I wish it wasn't like that, but it is.
Now, I could say "My responsibility to you is only in class teaching technique. Whatever you do outside class is up to you." What happens if that kid gets into trouble with martial arts? Do I still say "He used TKD outside class and it isn't my responsibility?" Of course I don't. I trained him, I am responsible for him. Not just in class, but outside class as well.
Now adults, granted, are a little different. They are responsible for themselves outside class more. However, as my students, I am still responsible for their development and growth as martial arts students, both in and out of class. As far as work, school, family I can give advice if asked or if I know a particular area. But they can also make their own decisions and learn from them.But as far as martial artists, they answer to me.
You sound just like the know-nothings I went to school with, the ones I would never dream of talking about martial arts with because it was obvious they considered traditional training laughable.
I am not saying that a traditional instructor needs to know all about life and be a life adviser to students. But you have this superficial attitude that the only thing an instructor is good for is teaching technique. That is not an instructor that is a coach. A coach's job is to bring student's technique to accomplish a mission-usually winning matches.
This is what DO means-a martial art as a Way of Life to better yourself as a student and as a person. You may think of it an outdated anachronism, and your posting suggest more than a little anti-Eastern bigotry. But the practice of traditional martial arts serves an important purpose-a solid foundation to help you through life. I wish there was no need for it. The fact is, for many students in our organization, mine as well as other instructors', this traditional guidance is often the ONLY guidance they have. We provide guidance that many times their parents don't give them. I wish it wasn't like that, but it is.
Now, I could say "My responsibility to you is only in class teaching technique. Whatever you do outside class is up to you." What happens if that kid gets into trouble with martial arts? Do I still say "He used TKD outside class and it isn't my responsibility?" Of course I don't. I trained him, I am responsible for him. Not just in class, but outside class as well.
Now adults, granted, are a little different. They are responsible for themselves outside class more. However, as my students, I am still responsible for their development and growth as martial arts students, both in and out of class. As far as work, school, family I can give advice if asked or if I know a particular area. But they can also make their own decisions and learn from them.But as far as martial artists, they answer to me.
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
This thread is the funniest thing I've read in years!!!!
:bs1: :bs1: :bs1: :bs1: :bs1: :bs1: :bs1: :bs1: :bs1: :bs1: :bs1:
Matt Stone has the correct. The rest of you have watched Karate Kid a few too many time.
:bs1: :bs1: :bs1: :bs1: :bs1: :bs1: :bs1: :bs1: :bs1: :bs1: :bs1:
Matt Stone has the correct. The rest of you have watched Karate Kid a few too many time.
Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.
-MJS
-MT Moderator-
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.
-MJS
-MT Moderator-
