More reasons to fund stem cell research

[Cryozombie]

I've always been curious about this reasoning, although it is extremely common. You are essentially creating identical twins separated in time. Your own twin. We don't consider identical twins as "profoundly wrong." Why then do we consider the process of cloning wrong?

Ideas?

Mind you I am all for cloning, and clone research, especially if it can lead us down a path like "Altered Carbon" where we can switch our conciousness into a new body to prevent death, woo hoo!

But one of the arguments I have heard bandied about a lot, is that cloning technology will lead to cloning whole humans to harvest healthy organs for the orignatior with minimal risk of rejection since it would be in essence "original tissue", and it raises ethical questions about doing that, and the definition of a person.

Not saying I'm for that argument, just that its one I have heard bandied about. Personally, I could use a new liver.

:cheers:

 

[Twin Fist]

wrong again

it can be and IS funded through private donations.

again, I guess there is no reason why TAX dollars should be used, I have been asking for a reason for 3 days, and nothing......

Uh, actually, denying funding is a restriction. Especially when it hinged upon an arbitrary date.

http://www.bioethics.net/articles.php?viewCat=2&articleId=38

 

[Marginal]

wrong again

it can be and IS funded through private donations.

again, I guess there is no reason why TAX dollars should be used, I have been asking for a reason for 3 days, and nothing......

Thing is, the federal funding was kept in place, but they restricted the research to the pre existing lines.

You provided proof in your first post why tax dollars should be used. Private funding hasn't accomplished much.

 

[Twin Fist]

more money isnt always the answer

it might just not work, and since it doesnt work currently, and there is no reason to think it will since no one else, anywhere in the world has accomplished anything, seems like a waste of money.

particuarly NOW when 1/3 of all american wealth is gone.....

private donations? sure

tax dollars? nope

 

[crushing]

wrong again

it can be and IS funded through private donations.

again, I guess there is no reason why TAX dollars should be used, I have been asking for a reason for 3 days, and nothing......

Actually TF, in addition to public organization, private donations, and corporate interests; billions of federal and state level tax dollars are already being used (or at least set aside) to fund embryonic stem cell research.

There are always strings (aka restrictions and requirements) attached to government funding. Google 'goverment funding strings'. As pointed out previously, President Obama stated outright that restrictions on research will continue.

I hope that the research does find cures. Maybe our great-grandchildren or great-great-grandchildren that will be paying for todays federally funded research will get some benefit from it?

 

[Twin Fist]

true enough

henry ford didnt get tax money
Alexander bell didnt either


i dont know

 

[Empty Hands]

again, I guess there is no reason why TAX dollars should be used, I have been asking for a reason for 3 days, and nothing......

I alone have given you several.

Stop being deliberately obtuse.

 

[cdunn]

true enough

henry ford didnt get tax money
Alexander bell didnt either


i dont know

Unfortunately, it is not so simple as 'not taking tax money'. A great deal of the level of research that needs to be done is generally accomplished at the university level. which have, since their foundation, relied upon grants and patronages of the local authority. In the US, many of these institutions are specifically public schools, established by state legislatures, and funded in part through money given the states by the Federal government.

Yes, there are private universities. The only difference is that the student walks out of a private university roughly $100,000 deeper in debt than the public school student. Any research still requires outside funding resources, typically both governmental and private.

Now, with the way the rules are written, when one is forbidden to use tax money for a particular purpose, anything whatsoever purchased with even one penny of money from the government cannot be used in that purpose, no matter what else I am using it for... including things like rooms, electricity, microscopes, etc. Every jot and tittle paid for by the government must be accounted for, and it still belongs to the government. It gets used wherever permitted, but not for the research that you can't spend federal money on.

Asking a public university, which is likely already cash-strapped, to go out, solicit tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars, in order to build and staff duplicate labs is a ridiculous waste of resources. Therefore, it is simply not spent. The restriction of spending becomes an effective ban on research at these facilities.

Even if not one single further federal dollar is spent, allowing those private institutions who desire to do work with the universities to do so is a major furthering of the art. Just letting the extant biopharmaceticals and research foundations actually use the existing infrastructure is huge.

Goverment Money, however, is generally requested and spent by the agency, and there are going to be two agencies lining up at the universities - Health and Human Services.. and the Pentagon, through the branch research labs. The price of 1 F-22 can pay for dozens, if not hundreds of research projects dedicated to putting wounded soldiers back together. They want it, and the military is nothing if not forwards looking when it comes to research.

PS: Much of Bell's work rested on research coming out of German universities - funded traditionally by nobility, and later, the government. He also spent at least some time working on the predecessor to the telephone while employed as a professor at a publically chartered university.

 

[Twin Fist]

all of which amount to nothing and have convinced me of nothing. Boil them all down and it all amounts to "because I say so and because I want it"

Mind you, i dont think the government should be funding much research at all, in any field.

alternative energy

and

thats about it

everything else, IMO should be funded by those that stand to make a profit from it.

provide for the common defense
promote the general walfare
secure the blessings of liberty
to ourselves and our prosperity

now, where in there is funding for research (that can only come from the destruction of embryos, which many find objectionable) that has YET to show ANY viability, during a recession when we are already running the largest deficit in history?

 

[Twin Fist]

quit being an unsufferable, and insulting, then you can think about throwing stones, Mr Glass house

I alone have given you several.

Stop being deliberately obtuse.

 

[Cryozombie]

promote the general walfare

So research into feilds which have the potential for saving lives, curing afflictions, saving the paralyzed etc... doesnt promote the general welfare for US citizens.

OOOOOOHHHHHKAYYY then.

 

[Twin Fist]

can you say with 100% honesty that the only problem is not enough money?

can you promise that it WOULD work if they just had more research money?

seriously, can you say with 100% certainty that it will work?

 

[Cryozombie]

can you say with 100% honesty that the only problem is not enough money?

can you promise that it WOULD work if they just had more research money?

seriously, can you say with 100% certainty that it will work?

Ok, Ill be an obstanant *** too.

Yes. I guarantee that with ENOUGH Money and 100 years worth of Time it WILL work, or in 100 years I personally will refund what you paid to you.

 

[Cryozombie]

can you say with 100% honesty that the only problem is not enough money?

can you promise that it WOULD work if they just had more research money?

seriously, can you say with 100% certainty that it will work?

And while we are playing the Obstanance game:

can you say with 100% honesty that your only problem with it is FEDERAL money?

can you promise that it WON'T work EVEN if they had more research money?

seriously, can you say with 100% certainty that it will NOT work?

 

[Twin Fist]

yes, my ONLY problem with it is that I dont think TAX dollars should go to it, or to most of the things we spend tax dollars on.

I agree that it needs to be researched, but not paid for by the public.

I have said that all along.

and I will even go further towards meeting you in the middle, IF the economy wasnt in such bad shape, i might even agree to tax dollars being spent.

but not NOW, not with what we have going on NOW.

 

[Twin Fist]

sorry, this is above and beyond the call. Outright personal attacks are agaisnt the rules.

Ok, Ill be an obstanant *** too.

Yes. I guarantee that with ENOUGH Money and 100 years worth of Time it WILL work, or in 100 years I personally will refund what you paid to you.

 

[blindsage]

Two Fist, were you against stem cell research before the economy went bad?

And in response to you saying no one has answered your questions, you've been responded to clearly by Empty Hand and others.

The research has shown results.

The reason for public funding is because the basic research needed to get to new medicines and other advancements won't get done otherwise. The expense of basic research is prohibitively high for private industry, they don't see enough return on investment to make it worth their while. It's the profit motive, if they don't see a profit, they have no motive.

 

[Twin Fist]

blind, in general terms, I am against MOST federally fnded research, i do not think it is a function of government

embryonic stem celss have accomplished nothing, adult stem cells have shown results, and that is already funded.

and EH ansswers dont really answer anything, or amount to anything other than "well,,,,we just SHOULD"

that isnt good enough to convince me. Sorry.

hell i am all for stem cell research, hell, I am all for cloning, I would like to be able to buy a new set of lungs one day.

but private business, not the government should fund it.

 

[Cryozombie]

sorry, this is above and beyond the call. Outright personal attacks are agaisnt the rules.

Says the man who called Empty Hands Empty head. Cant take what you dish out???? Or do the rules only apply when they work in your favor?

 

[Cryozombie]

Double post