Modern Japanese jiu jitsu vs traditional Japanese jiu jitsu

moonhill99

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Note may be some members here into Japanese jiu jitsu section of this forum and really into jiu jitsu can explain this better.


I'm looking for a Japanese jiu jitsu school in Florida and some members where saying most schools in the US are modern Japanese jiu jitsu also known modern eclectic Western jujutsu system. Saying it not that it is bad, it just really not really true jiu jitsu. Saying a person takes bit of karate,Judo and jiu jitsu and slaps together system and call it Japanese jiu jitsu .

What is more scary is it a McDojo school or how much do they understand jiu jitsu. If such a school is only teaching some of the jiu jitsu moves?

Some members where saying I should take Aikido and Judo to get better feel of the art. But Aikido and Judo came from jiu jitsu.


It is really confusing understanding the different traditional Japanese jiu jitsu styles than the modern Japanese jiu jitsu.

Some of the Japanese jiu jitsu schools in Florida just seem to come of like McDojo schools to me or have no idea how to teach.
 

Shai Hulud

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Modern Japanese Jiu-Jitsu? You could be looking at either Aikido or Judo, or even Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or Sambo if you consider the cousin arts that the Brazilians and the Russians have formulated themselves.

I highly recommend Judo if you can find a good dojo around your area. Ask if they're a member of the national federation, or at least certified by the IJF.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I think you may have misunderstood what was being said in the other thread. Modern forms of jujutsu are not any less valid or "real" than older forms. They're just ... different. An art created according to the cultural norms and practical requirements of 17th century Japan is going to be different from an art created according to the cultural norms and practical requirements of mid-20th century England.

I think of it something like an extended family. Yoshin Ryu (a very old traditional Japanese form of jujutsu) is a distant relation to BJJ (a modern, western form of jujutsu) in the way that your great-great grand-uncle is a relation to you. You're related and probably share some DNA, but you are very different people.

In the other thread, you stated that you wanted to find an art that was somewhat aggressive and included strikes, throws, locks, and hold-downs. You can find that in many forms of jujutsu (as well as other arts which are not jujutsu related).

As far as the possibility of schools being 'McDojos", it's always a possibility in any art. I'm not sure how you're making that judgment though. What do you mean by 'McDojo" and why do you suspect the schools near you might qualify?

As far as their ability to teach, you'll have to visit them and judge for yourself. Everyone learns differently. What works for someone else to learn might not work for you.
 

Tony Dismukes

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Modern Japanese Jiu-Jitsu? You could be looking at either Aikido or Judo, or even Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or Sambo if you consider the cousin arts that the Brazilians and the Russians have formulated themselves.
If the OP is open to modern members of the jujutsu family from outside Japan, he might also consider Hapkido.
 
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moonhill99

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Modern forms of jujutsu are not any less valid or "real" than older forms.

What I mean by real is how much jujutsu are you getting example.

Some schools leave out some moves or some schools work on rear attack or 2 or 3 people coming at you to attack. Other schools leave these out.

They're just different.

Some of the modern schools seem more closer to Judo like to me.

An art created according to the cultural norms and practical requirements of 17th century Japan is going to be different from an art created according to the cultural norms and practical requirements of mid-20th century England.

If they add in boxing strikes or MMA strikes they should not call them self jujutsu. I looked at some of older styles like Yoshin Ryu and the video the other person posted it looks a lot more similar too Aikido moves.

Where modern forms of jujutsu seem less Aikido moves and more Judo to me.


As far as the possibility of schools being 'McDojos", it's always a possibility in any art. I'm not sure how you're making that judgment though. What do you mean by 'McDojo" and why do you suspect the schools near you might qualify?

There is no jujutsu school in Miami or Fort Lauderdale. There is one in Haileah it looks strange.

Very disorganized,overcrowding on mat, people very close to one other, no belts, many uniforms some that look like street work out clothes like army pants and such.

Don't see to many moves.

Other one close to Miami called Bushido Florida at 9357 SW 56th. Street.

You said.

Quote Don't see anything particularly McDojo-ish about this one. The jujutsu system in question is a modern eclectic system. It supposedly has a Japanese founder, but it still probably has more in common with modern eclectic Western jujutsu systems than it does with classical Japanese jujutsu. The instructor's 6th dan in the Kodokan is a good sign. My biggest objection is that they only have two classes per week. Quote


School seems kinda of empty like they may close down soon. If there is less than 10 people in class that does not sound good. Even 10 people is low.

I don't see any video or any work he has done.




bushidoknights school.

Quote Whatever that is, it's definitely not Japanese jujutsu. From the video, it looks like the instructor may be drawing more as much from FMA as anything else. Quote

I agree it does not look jujutsu at all. It looks very odd.
 
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moonhill99

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If this is traditional Japanese jiu jitsu it looks way different and more similar to Aikido than Japanese jiu jitsu today that looks more similar to Judo.


‪Jujutsu‬



‪Jujutsu‬

‪jujutsu‬


‪Jujutsu‬




What a lot of ‪Ju-Jutsu‬ look like today than looks more closer to Judo like

‪Ju-Jutsu 1. DAN Test‬




-------------
Types of Jujutsu Systems
Types of Jujutsu Systems


Traditional: A brief list of some representative ryuha would be Hontai Yoshin-ryu, Takenouchi-ryu, Saigo-ryu Aiki-jujutsu, Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu, and Sosuishitsu-ryu, to name just a few.

Gendai (Modern): Example systems would be many of the modern systems that go by the name "jujutsu," but which do not have links to the traditional jujutsu systems (such as Miyama-ryu Jujutsu, Danzan-ryu Jujitsu, Senshin-ryu Goshin-jutsu, Budoshin Jujitsu, and Ketsugo-ryu Jujitsu).

Modern Jujutsu systems, frequently called Goshin-jutsu, are based on the older traditional Jujutsu systems, but they were founded after 1867, and have a primary focus on self-defense tactics that are appropriate for modern civilian use. These include defenses for grabs, chokes, defenses against knife, club, gun attacks to name a few.


------------------


So it gets confusing for me. All this new and old and different types.
 

Tony Dismukes

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What I mean by real is how much jujutsu are you getting example.

Some schools leave out some moves or some schools work on rear attack or 2 or 3 people coming at you to attack. Other schools leave these out.

I'm not sure what you mean by "leave out". There's not a master list anywhere of all the moves in "real" jujutsu that you can say a given school is "leaving out." No two systems (old or new) have the exact same curriculum.

Regardless, almost any decent jujutsu school will give you plenty of material to work on for a very long time.

Some of the modern schools seem more closer to Judo like to me.

Not surprising. Judo is a form of jujutsu, perhaps the first truly modern form. The majority of modern jujutsu systems are descended at least partially from judo.

If they add in boxing strikes or MMA strikes they should not call them self jujutsu.

Eh, some historical purists might agree with you. On the other hand, stealing from other arts is one of the main ways that martial arts evolve and new ones are created. The real question is whether the techniques that have been adopted from other sources are properly integrated into the system so they work harmoniously with the existing material.

There is one in Haileah it looks strange.

Very disorganized,overcrowding on mat, people very close to one other, no belts, many uniforms some that look like street work out clothes like army pants and such.

Don't see to many moves.

None of that would be markers of what is normally referred to as a McDojo or even necessarily a bad school. It might not be what you are looking for. Did you actually visit it or are you just looking at pictures?

School seems kinda of empty like they may close down soon. If there is less than 10 people in class that does not sound good. Even 10 people is low.

I certainly wouldn't assume any of that. Smaller classes are actually better for learning. You can get a lot more individual attention from the instructor.
 
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moonhill99

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I'm not sure what you mean by "leave out". There's not a master list anywhere of all the moves in "real" jujutsu that you can say a given school is "leaving out." No two systems (old or new) have the exact same curriculum.

Regardless, almost any decent jujutsu school will give you plenty of material to work on for a very long time.


I don't mean that. My concern is McDojo schools where the curriculum will be half of her going for her Ju-Jutsu 1. DAN Test‬. Why? Because the curriculum is short list what school teaches.


Or this Ju-Jutsu school in Jacksonville Florid that looks so McDojo. I have seen white belts do better and faster moves than these higher belts students!!!



School web site.

Kodenkan Jiu-Jitsu Jacksonville Florida home

There promote videos and web site don't look too impressive.


Yawn, I think I watch WWF and boxing, do better in street fight than these guys that move like snails and don't seem to do many moves.

Eh, some historical purists might agree with you. On the other hand, stealing from other arts is one of the main ways that martial arts evolve and new ones are created. The real question is whether the techniques that have been adopted from other sources are properly integrated into the system so they work harmoniously with the existing material.

What concerns me is school that say it is Ju-Jutsu but in reality you lucky to get 30% Ju-Jutsu and other percent some thing else.


Where if you go to Judo school, Brazilian jiujitsu, MMA or boxing school you get more solid foundation curriculum because that is fad these days, Where Japanese jiu jitsu does not seem popular in US so it is hard to find schools that alone good schools

There is one in Haileah it looks strange.

Very disorganized,overcrowding on mat, people very close to one other, no belts, many uniforms some that look like street work out clothes like army pants and such.


None of that would be markers of what is normally referred to as a McDojo or even necessarily a bad school. It might not be what you are looking for. Did you actually visit it or are you just looking at pictures?


I don't feel comfortable going to school that is disorganized:(:( I cannot put faith in people that are disorganized. If your car and office is disorganized than your teaching may be disorganized.

And overcrowding on mat is safety corners for me.

no belts, many uniform just seems odd like it is a underground school. Well sure some schools may have white ,red or blue gi but this looks like a Halloween slide show.
 

pgsmith

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I wasn't going to comment, but I just can't stand it any more. :)

First, you keep going on about ju jutsu, both modern and traditional, and saying this looks like this and that doesn't look like you expect. Ju jutsu is a catch-all phrase for what you did in old Japan when your primary weapon (bow or spear) and secondary weapon (sword) were broken or unavailable. In a great many cases, it involved using your tertiary weapon (wakizashi or tanto, more often tanto) to poke the fellow once you got him down. They didn't generally have a lot of striking in the arts because they were meant to be used when your opponent was likely to be wearing armor on a battlefield (why would you be without your sword otherwise?) and striking him wasn't the best idea. For this reason, most incorporate throws and/or joint locks to momentarily immobilize the opponent before sticking him with your shoto. They can look tremendously different from one to another, so you cannot say this one looks like ju jutsu and this other one doesn't, it just doesn't work that way. In the modern world, ju jutsu has come to refer to any modern invented system which incorporates joint locks and/or throws in their curriculum. It may or may not come with a whole bunch of other stuff, and is only as good as whoever created the new art in the first place.

I think you should be more concerned with the dojo atmosphere and whether it's some place you enjoy going to regularly. The only way to know that is to go there and see for yourself. Unless you are planning on a career in law enforcement or security (which have their own quirky requirements) then the odds of you actually using anything you learn is really very small. I personally know a great many people that have been doing martial arts for decades, and can count the number that have had to use what they learned on one hand (excluding the aforementioned LEOs and security folks).

As I was told many years back ... "The hardest part about learning any martial art is going to the dojo regularly. If you can master that part, everything else will just happen".
 

Chris Parker

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Note may be some members here into Japanese jiu jitsu section of this forum and really into jiu jitsu can explain this better.


I'm looking for a Japanese jiu jitsu school in Florida and some members where saying most schools in the US are modern Japanese jiu jitsu also known modern eclectic Western jujutsu system. Saying it not that it is bad, it just really not really true jiu jitsu. Saying a person takes bit of karate,Judo and jiu jitsu and slaps together system and call it Japanese jiu jitsu .

What is more scary is it a McDojo school or how much do they understand jiu jitsu. If such a school is only teaching some of the jiu jitsu moves?

Some members where saying I should take Aikido and Judo to get better feel of the art. But Aikido and Judo came from jiu jitsu.


It is really confusing understanding the different traditional Japanese jiu jitsu styles than the modern Japanese jiu jitsu.

Some of the Japanese jiu jitsu schools in Florida just seem to come of like McDojo schools to me or have no idea how to teach.

What?

Just read what Paul wrote.
 
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moonhill99

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I wasn't going to comment, but I just can't stand it any more. :)

First, you keep going on about ju jutsu, both modern and traditional, and saying this looks like this and that doesn't look like you expect.

Paul I don't think it matters if it is modern Japanese jiu jitsu or traditional Japanese jiu jitsu .

I was under idea from many members and Cris pasts posts here of what is making Japanese jiu jitsu bad.

1.Is instructor calling it a Japanese jiu jitsu school when it is not really a Japanese jiu jitsu, but 30% boxing ,40% Japanese jiu jitsu and some thing else.

So called modern eclectic western jujutsu


2. Or instructor not educated enough of on the history of Japanese jiu jitsu.

So called modern eclectic western jujutsu


Ju jutsu is a catch-all phrase for what you did in old Japan when your primary weapon (bow or spear) and secondary weapon (sword) were broken or unavailable. In a great many cases, it involved using your tertiary weapon (wakizashi or tanto, more often tanto) to poke the fellow once you got him down. They didn't generally have a lot of striking in the arts


Than in that case modern eclectic western jujutsu with military combative rough style mix Japanese jiu jitsu may be more my thing.

But anyways, I can't be picking just fighting good Japanese jiu jitsu school being new or old or modern eclectic western jujutsu seems hard to find in Florida.


because they were meant to be used when your opponent was likely to be wearing armor on a battlefield (why would you be without your sword otherwise?) and striking him wasn't the best idea. For this reason, most incorporate throws and/or joint locks to momentarily immobilize the opponent before sticking him with your shoto.

Okay that explains why there is not much striking.



They can look tremendously different from one to another, so you cannot say this one looks like ju jutsu and this other one doesn't, it just doesn't work that way. In the modern world, ju jutsu has come to refer to any modern invented system which incorporates joint locks and/or throws in their curriculum. It may or may not come with a whole bunch of other stuff, and is only as good as whoever created the new art in the first place.

There are many different Japanese jiu jitsu but that was not reason members where saying modern eclectic western jujutsu.

So called modern eclectic western jujutsu

1.Is instructor calling it a Japanese jiu jitsu school when it is not really a Japanese jiu jitsu but 30% boxing ,40% Japanese jiu jitsu and some thing else.

So called modern eclectic western jujutsu

2. Or instructor not educated enough of on the history of Japanese jiu jitsu.

Was this why it is bad.



I think you should be more concerned with the dojo atmosphere and whether it's some place you enjoy going to regularly. The only way to know that is to go there and see for yourself. Unless you are planning on a career in law enforcement or security (which have their own quirky requirements) then the odds of you actually using anything you learn is really very small. I personally know a great many people that have been doing martial arts for decades, and can count the number that have had to use what they learned on one hand (excluding the aforementioned LEOs and security folks).

As I was told many years back ... "The hardest part about learning any martial art is going to the dojo regularly. If you can master that part, everything else will just happen".

The school in Jacksonville Florid just screams McDojo to me.

 

pgsmith

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The school in Jacksonville Florid just screams McDojo to me.
It may be, or it may not. I don't see enough BS on their pages to peg them as such myself. However, my point is that you have nothing to base your opinion on except internet reading and your own imaginings. Even if it was a genuine McDojo, going to training there would still be much better than just talking about it on the internet. :)

Good luck in your hunt!
 

Hanzou

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Brazilian: Representative systems would be Gracie Jiujitsu, and Machado Jiujitsu.

Brazilian Jiujitsu is not a traditional or even a modern Jujutsu system. Its foundation are based on Kodokan Judo, not traditional Jujutsu, and it primary focus is on no-holds-barred tournaments, not self-defense.

Yeah, just about all of that is wrong.
 

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Yeah, just about all of that is wrong.

Whats standing out to you as wrong? Aside from the self-defense bit, which has always been a point of contention and many schools only feed that stereotype.

I dont know the full history of BJJ, but Maeda did traing in Kodokan Judo and held documented rank in Judo

Briefly looking into various biographies online, Maeda defeated Jujustu champs, but his training was in judo. So far i havent found anything linking his personal training to jujustu. I could be wrong but i thought at that time, judo was frequently called jujustu. You could make the connection that he learned JJ because Kano was his instructor though

are you debating the claim that BJJ isnt a traditional or modern JJ system?

I've got no dogs in this fight or anything, but now my interest is sparked on the "is BJJ traditional JJ? Or is it not even Jujustu at all?" debate thats brewing and am curious to hear both sides.

Could be interesting
 

Hanzou

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Whats standing out to you as wrong? Aside from the self-defense bit, which has always been a point of contention and many schools only feed that stereotype.

I dont know the full history of BJJ, but Maeda did traing in Kodokan Judo and held documented rank in Judo

Briefly looking into various biographies online, Maeda defeated Jujustu champs, but his training was in judo. So far i havent found anything linking his personal training to jujustu. I could be wrong but i thought at that time, judo was frequently called jujustu. You could make the connection that he learned JJ because Kano was his instructor though

are you debating the claim that BJJ isnt a traditional or modern JJ system?

I've got no dogs in this fight or anything, but now my interest is sparked on the "is BJJ traditional JJ? Or is it not even Jujustu at all?" debate thats brewing and am curious to hear both sides.

Could be interesting

Bjj is a modern form of jujutsu because it comes from jujutsu by way of Judo. Judo itself is considered a form of modern jujutsu. Heck, in Maeda's time Judo was called Kano Jiu-jitsu;

The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu Judo H. Irving Hancock Katsukuma Higashi 9780486443430 Amazon.com Books

So it's a bit odd to claim that Bjj isn't a form of jujutsu.

And yes, the self defense bit is completely laughable, but it's not surprising considering the source.
 

Drose427

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Bjj is a modern form of jujutsu because it comes from jujutsu by way of Judo. Judo itself is considered a form of modern jujutsu. Heck, in Maeda's time Judo was called Kano Jiu-jitsu;

The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu Judo H. Irving Hancock Katsukuma Higashi 9780486443430 Amazon.com Books

So it's a bit odd to claim that Bjj isn't a form of jujutsu.

And yes, the self defense bit is completely laughable, but it's not surprising considering the source.

While i understand exactly what youre saying and mostly agree, to play the devils advocate.

Judo is very distinct from jiujitsu. Correlating BJJ as JJ because of its ties to a style that was changed a decent bit from JJ could be considered odd.

Better example would be TKD.

TKD comes from Karate, which comes from chinese Martial Arts. But we dont consider TKD\TSD modern CMA's do we?

About the SD part, yeah but some folks will always say that as long as many schools neglect SD in lieu of sport....it happens to any style that has both.

Like we cant still set up a kick, break a rib or jaw with a punch , or run an armbar.
 

Hanzou

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While i understand exactly what youre saying and mostly agree, to play the devils advocate.

Judo is very distinct from jiujitsu. Correlating BJJ as JJ because of its ties to a style that was changed a decent bit from JJ could be considered odd.

While Judo is distinct from Jujutsu, it's still considered a modern form of Jujutsu. Further, Judo was mainly called Kano Jiu-Jitsu until the term "Judo" became popularized in Japan in 1925. Maeda left Japan long before that happened. So if the Japanese considered what they were doing a form of jujutsu, and Maeda believed he was doing a form of jujutsu, who are we to argue?

Better example would be TKD.

TKD comes from Karate, which comes from chinese Martial Arts. But we dont consider TKD\TSD modern CMA's do we?

A fairly terrible comparison, because we have no idea what particular styles of CMA were the forerunners of Karate, or who the people were that transferred and transformed Kung Fu into Karate, and when they did it. All of it is murky and mysterious.

With Jujutsu, Judo, and Bjj, we know exactly who transferred and transformed classical jujutsu into Judo, and what styles were mainly used in that transformation. Further, the father of Bjj was a direct student of the individual who did it.

About the SD part, yeah but some folks will always say that as long as many schools neglect SD in lieu of sport....it happens to any style that has both.

Except that's a pretty large assumption. There's plenty of Bjj schools that are competition heavy, but still provide very good to excellent self defense training.

It's also pretty silly to assume that a martial athlete wouldn't have the tools to defend themselves if things go bad.
 

Drose427

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While Judo is distinct from Jujutsu, it's still considered a modern form of Jujutsu. Further, Judo was mainly called Kano Jiu-Jitsu until the term "Judo" became popularized in Japan in 1925. Maeda left Japan long before that happened. So if the Japanese considered what they were doing a form of jujutsu, and Maeda believed he was doing a form of jujutsu, who are we to argue?



A fairly terrible comparison, because we have no idea what particular styles of CMA were the forerunners of Karate, or who the people were that transferred and transformed Kung Fu into Karate, and when they did it. All of it is murky and mysterious.

With Jujutsu, Judo, and Bjj, we know exactly who transferred and transformed classical jujutsu into Judo, and what styles were mainly used in that transformation. Further, the father of Bjj was a direct student of the individual who did it.



Except that's a pretty large assumption. There's plenty of Bjj schools that are competition heavy, but still provide very good to excellent self defense training.

It's also pretty silly to assume that a martial athlete wouldn't have the tools to defend themselves if things go bad.


Those are some good points.

To me, BJJ is like the sport TKD of the grappling world.

We can still fairly easily trace it back to Karate, buts its now its own distinct descendant discipline.

I wonder how OP will respond. hes had some odd opinions on JJ in general
 

Hanzou

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Those are some good points.

To me, BJJ is like the sport TKD of the grappling world.

We can still fairly easily trace it back to Karate, buts its now its own distinct descendant discipline.

I wonder how OP will respond. hes had some odd opinions on JJ in general


Actually, Judo would be the TKD of the grappling world. Bjj isn't heavily influenced by its sport side, or a large governing body. A lot of Judo has been removed in order to facilitate its competitive side. There was actually a video showing all the techniques no longer taught in Judo because they were banned by the IJF. For example, you would rarely if ever go into a Bjj school and not be allowed to do a double leg takedown while rolling. However, that's the case in quite a few Judo dojos.

Also Judo and TKD are both Olympic sports.
 
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