Japanese Jiu Jitsu vs BJJ?

kingofjong

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Hello

I was wondering what are the differences between Japanese Jiu jitsu and bjj? I know bjj got its roots in Judo but does it also have roots in Japanese jiu jitsu? I found these two videos online of old match one of the Gracie's had
. In these matches they spend lot of time rolling around on the mat which they don't do in modern jiu jitsu. In modern bjj they pull guard and just lay there. Are those videos of Japanese Jiu Jitsu before the Gracies built jiu jitsu. I have also found videos of Gracies doing jiu jitsu from 1951 that looks similar to what you see in the video.

Thank you
Kingofjong
 
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Mider

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From what i remember, judo was jiu jitsu but with many things removed
 

frank raud

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Hello

I was wondering what are the differences between Japanese Jiu jitsu and bjj? I know bjj got its roots in Judo but does it also have roots in Japanese jiu jitsu? I found these two videos online of old match one of the Gracie's had
. In these matches they spend lot of time rolling around on the mat which they don't do in modern jiu jitsu. In modern bjj they pull guard and just lay there. Are those videos of Japanese Jiu Jitsu before the Gracies built jiu jitsu. I have also found videos of Gracies doing jiu jitsu from 1951 that looks similar to what you see in the video.

Thank you
Kingofjong
"Japanese Jiu Jitsu" is many things. I know of modern "Japanese jiu jitsu" schools that are almost exclusively based on ground fighting. I know of others that avoid the ground altogether.
 

drop bear

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From what i remember, judo was jiu jitsu but with many things removed
Sort of. A lot of traditional jujitsu can look more like aikido. The judo based versions being not as historically accurate. And frowned upon buy traditionalists.

Which is funny as the judo versions are generally better.

Tritac which no longer calles itself Japanese jujitsu is an example.

 

Oily Dragon

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In these matches they spend lot of time rolling around on the mat which they don't do in modern jiu jitsu. In modern bjj they pull guard and just lay there.
Well that's just not true. BJJ is an advanced martial art involving dozens of throws, holds, submissions, and fighting at different levels.

The idea that BJJ is just "fall into my guard" is one of those lies that other martial arts like to claim when they think they are superior (which most of the time is quickly proven wrong the moment they roll in BJJ). Not to mention, being in guard is almost always a disadvantage.

As far as jujutsu, that's a vast array of different arts each with their own history. Judo happens to be mostly drawn from just a couple of those, with things like strikes moved to theory side, and sparring (randori) and shiai (competing) taking precedence. Which many people believe is why arts like judo (and BJJ, and their cousins like Chinese Shuai Jiao) remain some of the most useful and powerful.
 

screamingskull

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Well that's just not true. BJJ is an advanced martial art involving dozens of throws, holds, submissions, and fighting at different levels.

The idea that BJJ is just "fall into my guard" is one of those lies that other martial arts like to claim when they think they are superior (which most of the time is quickly proven wrong the moment they roll in BJJ). Not to mention, being in guard is almost always a disadvantage.

As far as jujutsu, that's a vast array of different arts each with their own history. Judo happens to be mostly drawn from just a couple of those, with things like strikes moved to theory side, and sparring (randori) and shiai (competing) taking precedence. Which many people believe is why arts like judo (and BJJ, and their cousins like Chinese Shuai Jiao) remain some of the most useful and powerful.
"everyones got a plan until they get a punch in the teeth" or something like that from Mike Tyson.
He織s right though all that rolling on the floor won織t help you outside against more than one.
I stay on my feet not on the floor.
 

dunc

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BJJ is essentially a style that looks to take down and submit a single opponent
The focus is to do this without strikes, but most academies also do MMA and BJJ is a core part of MMA
BJJ includes takedowns, throws etc from judo and wrestling, but continues the match beyond that to the point of submission which requires a fair amount of controlling the opponent on the floor
Under certain rule sets competitions can absolutely descend into folk sitting down and looking for leg attacks which is very far removed from self defence. BUT that is not an accurate reflection of the style as a whole

Japanese ju-jitsu is less well defined. There are literally hundreds of styles out there all with their own flavour and strengths / weaknesses
They range from western styles that, realising the limitations of judo, added in strikes and other elements to try and create a more wholistic style which they called Japanese ju-jitsu
To very traditional styles that trace their roots back hundreds of years and attempt to preserve the lessons from medieval times. These include strikes, weapons etc and place very little emphasis on fighting on the ground

Within that spectrum there are folks who train very formally, who spar, who never spar, who have never been to Japan, who are predominantly Japanese etc etc
 

Oily Dragon

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"everyones got a plan until they get a punch in the teeth" or something like that from Mike Tyson.
He織s right though all that rolling on the floor won織t help you outside against more than one.
I stay on my feet not on the floor.
Again, standing combat is fundamental to BJJ. Because it's always been fundamental to Japanese jujutsu, too.

So if you are against more than one person, BJJ works just fine. I can think of few arts better than BJJ at controlling a whole crowd.

And a major skill in BJJ is getting up off the ground. So there's that too. Technical stand-ups. I practice these climbing out of the pool.
 
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Oily Dragon

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BJJ is essentially a style that looks to take down and submit a single opponent
The way it is often trained, sure.

But there are plenty of ways to use many vs. one tactics in BJJ.

One of the best submissions is to throw someone on their butt. You can see the defeat in their eyes. And you can rinse and repeat that in a group fight, a lot easier than throwing fists. Although a well trained MMA fighter is going to know how to do all of that (we just saw a video of that here).

No matter what anyone says, especially off the mats, getting thrown (hard) is going to end things for most assailants, especially if they have no ukemi training. Even Aikidoka fall better than the average thug. That was a light hearted joke to my Aikido brethren.
 
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Buka

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Ive been fortunate to have trained a lot of styles under a lot of really good/great instructors of those styles.

I put BJJ right up there with anything Ive experienced. Or even seen.
 

screamingskull

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Why do you say that?
from real life experiences in bar brawls. These things spill over out onto the streets & it織s rare that only 2 people are fighting.
& yes i know the "Bruce Lee" martial arts dojo heroes on here will argue...but....
 

dunc

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Yes if there are more than one aggressor then its probably best to avoid the controlling them on the ground part of BJJ - being able to stay on your feet, to grapple on your feet and ideally do the odd take down are all useful in that situation, but BJJ is not an art that is optimised for self defence

Having said that Id advise googling BJJ in a street fight or self defence etc because there are a lot of videos out there showing just how useful it is outside of the dojo/academy
 

Oily Dragon

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from real life experiences in bar brawls. These things spill over out onto the streets & it織s rare that only 2 people are fighting.
& yes i know the "Bruce Lee" martial arts dojo heroes on here will argue...but....
Why is it always the self-described "bar fighters" who always try to claim the intellectual high ground on hand to hand combat discussions?

"Rare that only two people" according to who?

If anyone sounds like a Bruce Lee martial arts dojo hero dude, it's the guys who claim they are bar fighting masters who always fight on their feet.
 
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Oily Dragon

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Yes if there are more than one aggressor then its probably best to avoid the controlling them on the ground part of BJJ - being able to stay on your feet, to grapple on your feet and ideally do the odd take down are all useful in that situation, but BJJ is not an art that is optimised for self defence

Having said that Id advise googling BJJ in a street fight or self defence etc because there are a lot of videos out there showing just how useful it is outside of the dojo/academy
I'd save your time trying to reason with the obvious, casual sport vs street dude.

He's got more bar fight experience than both of us. That just makes him superior to all comers when it comes to combat science.
 

screamingskull

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Why is it always the self-described "bar fighters" who always try to claim the intellectual high ground on hand to hand combat discussions?

"Rare that only two people" according to who?

If anyone sounds like a Bruce Lee martial arts dojo here dude, it's the guys who claim they are bar fighting masters who always fight on their feet.
i know you obviously don織t
 

Oily Dragon

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i know you obviously don織t
Don't what? Please try harder to make sense to the people here who are actually trained in non-pub full contact *** kicking.

So far we've only established that you drink and watch people fight. I like soccer as much as the next guy but bar fights are a pretty narrow anecdote.

Like your comment "most fights are more than 2 people" sounds like something a drunk would claim, because that tends to be the source of a lot of large scale brawls: people who are high.
 

screamingskull

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Don't what? Please try harder to make sense to the people here who are actually trained in non-pub full contact *** kicking.

So far we've only established that you drink and watch people fight. I like soccer as much as the next guy but bar fights are a pretty narrow anecdote.
again your post shows you don織t know ..otherwise you would know & not ask such a foolish question.
 
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