Modern Arnis/Balintawak/Relationships and other discussions

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Rocky
You can never truely understand an art unless you understand its liniage or roots, I know Anciong was taought differantly than the Canette's but I there still has to be some reminances of his early training. Just as Modern Arnis gets its upper body movement and block and lock from Moncols Balintawak and its liniar lower body movement from Original Balintawak.

Yup. I definitely see commonalities between what I've seen of Doce Pares (traditional and Eskrido) and what I've seen of Balintawak. There are plenty of differences, too, of course. The divergent developments are evident. But the common roots are evident. And also evident in the very small bit of Modern Arnis that I've been exposed to.

Mike

 

[DoxN4cer]

According to some research I did in the PI, there's a lot more to the the roots of Balintawak than the Savedras and the Doce Pares Society. Have any of you guys that train with Mr. Buot heard of Anciong Bacon's exploits with the natives in Suirgao?

Tim Kashino

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
According to some research I did in the PI, there's a lot more to the the roots of Balintawak than the Savedras and the Doce Pares Society. Have any of you guys that train with Mr. Buot heard of Anciong Bacon's exploits with the natives in Suirgao?

Tim Kashino

I don't think I have. Could you explain in greater detail?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
According to some research I did in the PI, there's a lot more to the the roots of Balintawak than the Savedras and the Doce Pares Society. Have any of you guys that train with Mr. Buot heard of Anciong Bacon's exploits with the natives in Suirgao?

Tim Kashino

The Questions was ask this evening. Manong Ted will ask his brother in law ElToro, who traveled much with GM Anciong Bacon.

:asian:


(* Toasty called me on this. Manong Arturo is the real name for the Brother in Law of Manong Ted Buot. I just called him El Toro, for that is what the name reminds me of. It was a slip and not meant in any other way then as Nice Nick Name. *)

 

[Cruentus]

Cool...Maybe I'll get the scoop from him this weekend!

 

[loki09789]

I think there is a lack of recognition for the western influence on filipino arts. I know that Filipinos have indiginous arts and such but most of the arts that we are generally exposed to in Balitawak/Modern Arnis have had some form of western influence/exchange. GM Bobby was a boxer, as are many of the FMA masters that we tend to know about. Some of them have also been involved in trad arts as well.

The western arts have had an influence at least because of circumstance. Spanish/American culture includes martial arts and have been present in the Philipines for a long time. The idea that Doce Pares may have been named in honor of a French fencer and his influence on one of the Saavrado (Sp?) members. And at the very least, the amount of banging that happens between PI natives and incoming cultures (Dutch, Spanish, American, Chinese...) must have forced some adaptations because of the body and movement differences.

I love FMA, but I don't have any doubt about the richness of Western Martial arts and their role on the global martial arts evolution. Sailors, Soldiers, Merchants... they have all influenced the cultures they touched for good or bad. As a dominate culture as well, western empirialism/colonialism hinted (none too subtley) that legitimacy and social progress depended on the locals becoming more "western" because it was superior in everyway (idea of the time, not my opinion).

I still think that FMA, and arts that have come through the Hawaiian Islands are VERY influenced by western martial arts and that it needs to be recognized along with the indiginous influence. Taking the occasional boxing, wresting class might be as effective as taking some other arts.

Paul Martin

 

[Cruentus]

I agree that there was some western Influence. Both Bacon and Buot Boxed. Sometimes when doing Balintawak, I feel like I am basically boxing with a stick!

However, I think there is a lot of misinformation out there, and I feel that I should mention it within the context of this thread. People talk and create rumors, and stuff ends up on the internet, in articles, and in books. Just because something is in print, that doesn't make it accurate. It is very difficult for most American Balintawak people to get history when for many their training comes from seminars, video's, books, and other secondary sources. We had/have this same problem with Modern Arnis.

The other problem we have regarding misinformation is that Anciong Delegated only one person to teach in the school, and that person was Ted Buot. All the rest of the instructors out there taught outside of the school creating different competitive factions. This created a lot of outside competition under the same "Balintawak" umbrella. So, each master is going to have a different story to tell, and a different truth, with each "truth" supporting their agenda. Plus, many of the masters who are around now a days weren't innitially taught by Anciong; they were taught by Villisan, or Atillio, or Lopez, or whomever first. This is not to fault them, but it is just that information can get accidently misrepresented when this is the case.

So, I tend to take all the info I hear with a grain of salt. Although I am not trying to say I am better skill-wise then many of the masters who are out there teaching Balintawak, but I can say that I am often closer in generation to Anciong then they are. So, if I hear something, I ask Manong Ted. He will tell me what I need to know cause he was THERE. And...if he wasn't, he has family and contacts who he know's were there, and he can get the correct info.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by loki09789
I think there is a lack of recognition for the western influence on filipino arts. I know that Filipinos have indiginous arts and such but most of the arts that we are generally exposed to in Balitawak/Modern Arnis have had some form of western influence/exchange. GM Bobby was a boxer, as are many of the FMA masters that we tend to know about. Some of them have also been involved in trad arts as well.

Popular or not I am confused.

I thought Boxing and/or Western Boxing was influenced by the boxing from the Phillipines, before this, boxing was palm up fist fighting. The Filipino's added in some good footwork and body angling that influenced the US Military and their boxing teams, which influenced the rest of the Western Boxing. Or atl east this is how I understood it.

As to the Traditional Arts, No one will deny that Remy Presas trained in and held rank in Shoto Kan Karate and Judo. Nor do I deny influence into Modern Arnis from Wally Jay and SCJJ.

I am confused as too what your point was. If just to comment that everything is influenced by everything, then sure I get it, yet?

Originally posted by loki09789
The western arts have had an influence at least because of circumstance. Spanish/American culture includes martial arts and have been present in the Philipines for a long time. The idea that Doce Pares may have been named in honor of a French fencer and his influence on one of the Saavrado (Sp?) members. And at the very least, the amount of banging that happens between PI natives and incoming cultures (Dutch, Spanish, American, Chinese...) must have forced some adaptations because of the body and movement differences.

Yes the western arts have had influence everywhere just as I am sure the eastern arts have influenced. No where in the history I learned about Modern Arnis was there this exclusion of other arts. Matter of fact, what I learned was that it was based upon multiple techniques from different arts and GM Presas' teaching style and methods.

So, if you point is that the Saavedra Brothers influenced much of the Martial Arts from Cebu City and the surrounding area. I agree. The PI was constantly under attack through its' complete history and many of the islands were taken by one culture yet others were taken by other cultures. Even Spanish, US and Japanese could say they controlled every inch of every island.

The Doces Pares could also have been named because the name is cool or because it was for the acceptance of the general people and the ruling class? Why do you not Ask? I know Manong Ted Buot is not strong on Doces Pares history. He knows much not everything. I would ask one of the last remaining Original Members (Canetes).

I always thought that is was accepted that FMA's from the PI had always adapted to what was thrown at them. What makes you think this will be unpopular?

Originally posted by loki09789
I love FMA, but I don't have any doubt about the richness of Western Martial arts and their role on the global martial arts evolution. Sailors, Soldiers, Merchants... they have all influenced the cultures they touched for good or bad. As a dominate culture as well, western empirialism/colonialism hinted (none too subtley) that legitimacy and social progress depended on the locals becoming more "western" because it was superior in everyway (idea of the time, not my opinion).

So, to say that the locals of the PI absorbed what the Spanish and others had thrown or thrust upon them and made it their own, is a correct statement. I am still confused as to why this would be unpopular?

Originally posted by loki09789
I still think that FMA, and arts that have come through the Hawaiian Islands are VERY influenced by western martial arts and that it needs to be recognized along with the indiginous influence. Taking the occasional boxing, wresting class might be as effective as taking some other arts.

Paul Martin

The influence of Hawai'i is well known yet did not effect all FMA's, for not all went through Hawai'i. Yes taking a Boxing and Wrestling class to round you out to understand motion is good. Yet I still am confused, as I stated above, I thought it was the Filipino Boxing that changed Western Boxing, to what it is today?


Oh Well

 

[Toasty]

Hello Mr. Kashino,

I have a few quick questions:
1)Are you sure you want to use the phrase "ALOT more to the roots of Balintawak"?
1b)if so, why hasn't anyone else ever written/said anything about these "exploits"?
2)What exploits are you talking about?
3)What and or who are your sources for research in the Phillipines?
4)Do you train in the Balintawak system?
4b)if so, with whom?

If you could answer these questions for me as well as explaining these "exploits" you've found out about I would greatly appreciate it as I am trying to catalog as much info as I can regarding FMA in the Cebu area (with the Balintawak system being the focus).
You could do this in a private e-mail if you wish as well.

Thanks in advance
Rob

 

[Cruentus]

in reality, if we are talking about the influence of boxing, it was circular. I heard the same thing Rich had said. I understood that in Ancient times, boxing started in Greece, migrated accrossed contenents, eventually reaching PI. PI had developed their own boxing techniques from that point, as well as the west. Then, Western Soldiers integrated the Filipino boxing progression into their own. Then in Modern times, the "western boxing" now influenced by other cultures, was integrated further into PI culture.

It seems when I really look at it, we're all one big family!

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Toasty
Hello Mr. Kashino,

I have a few quick questions:
1)Are you sure you want to use the phrase "ALOT more to the roots of Balintawak"?
1b)if so, why hasn't anyone else ever written/said anything about these "exploits"?
2)What exploits are you talking about?
3)What and or who are your sources for research in the Phillipines?
4)Do you train in the Balintawak system?
4b)if so, with whom?

If you could answer these questions for me as well as explaining these "exploits" you've found out about I would greatly appreciate it as I am trying to catalog as much info as I can regarding FMA in the Cebu area (with the Balintawak system being the focus).
You could do this in a private e-mail if you wish as well.

Thanks in advance
Rob

I am asking for the same info, if you wouldn't mind elaborating here.

 

[Rocky]

Rich Wrote:

I thought Boxing and/or Western Boxing was influenced by the boxing from the Phillipines, before this, boxing was palm up fist fighting. The Filipino's added in some good footwork and body angling that influenced the US Military and their boxing teams, which influenced the rest of the Western Boxing. Or atl east this is how I understood it.

True, I think that they probably stole from each other, which is only human nature.


Paul Son Wrote:

The other problem we have regarding misinformation is that Anciong Delegated only one person to teach in the school, and that person was Ted Buot. All the rest of the instructors out there taught outside of the school

Very true in fact, GM Buot has actually taught, some of the Balintawak Masters out there.

GM Presas, even acknowledge that, Ted was like a son to Great Grandmaster Bacon, GGM Bacon would often tell people when he would go from place to place to teach that, too learn from Ted was to learn from him, because Ted moved just like GGM Bacon. This is why when I teach Balintawak I strive to move, and teach to the best of my ability just like GM Buot, our liniage must be kept pure, there is very little honor or truth left in the Martial arts today, maybe we can at least keep Balintawak true to its founder and current leader and also keep it from being "Bastartdized".

As for the western Martial arts, Boxing or some form of it can be traced actually back to Mongolia, then through the Middle East, to Greece and Rome, to Europe, to England to America.

Now in America a new American art was developed and then lost, by the Polish, Hungarian, English, Russian, and Ukrainian people, and that was Catch as Catch Can. In my opinion the most brutal and efficiant unarmed fighting ever developed, which is why it all but died. An art that has no belts ( or cash generating fashion ensombiles) and that requires you to either beat your instructor or suffer a broken limb trying to beat him in order to reach the level of expert or "Hooker" is not an art that too many want to play with. Which is understandable you can't lie about your abilities and if a Martial artist can't lie about his abilities, then where would Modern day matial artist be.

Here is a question to ponder, why do we even bother lerning martial arts when most of us suck at it!!! Think about it for a minute. Every Master I ever trained with says the same thing, "boy you should have seen my master, I couldn't even touch him I am not even in the same league as him, and some say his Master was even better.

Now think about it!! someday you will probably be telling your students just how much better your Master was then you are. So that means that the last 4 or 5 generations have progressively gotten worst. Do you think a day will ever come when an instructor will just look at his student and say man I really suck at this and I wouldn't give a bucket of mule piss for your future Marial arts ability!!!

I was just wondering my mind works a little different from time to time
:rofl:

Rocky ( Master of all who are willing to follow) Pasiwk

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

First of all, I have NO PROBLEM with GM Bobby nor does GM Buot. Last time I saw GM Bobby, he proposed that he and I do some joint seminars and camps together. During one of my recent classes with Manong Ted, Bobby called up just to shoot the bull. For the record there is no problem, nor am I trying to start one.

Originally posted by loki09789
I think there is a lack of recognition for the western influence on Filipino arts. I know that Filipinos have indigenous arts and such but most of the arts that we are generally exposed to in Balintawak/Modern Arnis have had some form of western influence/exchange. GM Bobby was a boxer, as are many of the FMA masters that we tend to know about. Some of them have also been involved in trad arts as well.

I agree that there are western influences in many FMAs; this is why there is a European sword in the middle of the WMAA symbol. I don’t feel that boxing influenced Anciong’s style. I talked to Manong Ted last night and he informed me that Anciong didn’t train in boxing. That being said GM Bobby is a 3rd generation student of Bacon. If someone other than Bacon (including Bobby) put in some boxing, then that’s all right. Hell Bobby himself admitted to me that he added Sinawalis, Abaniquos, etc. for better marketing of his program.

We must remember that Anciong’s Balintawak is the original style and many others have hybrid programs. This is not saying one is better than the other. What I am saying is that some programs are closer to the original program than others.

:asian:

 

[loki09789]

The confusion seems to be because you aren't reading the post as it was written.

My point was the influence of western martial arts on the evolution of Balitawak, not the earliest history of western/eastern boxing. The lack of popularity is evident in how the boxing/western arts are trivialized in these discussions, not necessarily open hostility or rejection. The idea was that the western arts tend to be neglected when it comes to 'going back to the roots' discussions. I don't intend to say that there are any secrets of influences on MA or Balitawak, just that if the idea of higher level artists is to explore the roots of an art - or at least some of it's influences - then include the western arts. Sometimes it feels like if it isn't an eastern art, it ain't Sh*&.

How many of us have studied western fencing, or taken a boxing or wrestling class, and see how it fits. Even hockey, football, soccer... can teach us something about strategy and coordinated attack and defense, if we let it fit into our idea of adaptability. The single and double leg take down or a basic hip check can be just as good as any FMA or trad art technique for real fighting. Generals during WWII attributed their successes on the battlefield to the sport of football because it taught basic winning spirit and follow through in a team effort.

As far as the older influences on boxing, it was more than palm up or palm down and foot work. It was to concept of light vs. heavy. The roots of modern western boxing stem back to armored combatants with shield and sword (picture the old bare knuckle pictures of the industrial age stuff and you will see the similiarity), thus the lack of dynamic footwork and body movement compared to PI styles. The roots of PI or eastern boxing styles (chinese, mongolian, PI, Thai...) tend to be based on a light or no armor weapon history, thus the lightning footwork and slipperiness of the body motion.

In general, and I know there are exceptions, the armor of the western cultures was made to protect the fighter against swords and blunt attacks as it's first job. Thus, it is heavier and restricts some freedom of motion. But, the armor of most eastern cultures was designed to protect the fighter against arrows and missile attacks primarily. This allowed for more dynamic movement in comparison to the west.

Based on these roots, the influences on boxing or fighting arts is more than hand position or footwork, it comes down to strategic mindset of the art and how the historical evolution either fits/adapts or doesn't. Whoever did it, what ever the point in evolution you choose to pick, my point is it is all good if you can see the connections and the commonalities. Then, find the ones that fit what you are doing to accomplish your goals.

Paul Martin

 

[Cruentus]

I don’t feel that boxing influenced Anciong’s style. I talked to Manong Ted last night and he informed me that Anciong didn’t train in boxing.

AH HA! see how it starts! I don't know why, or where I heard it, but I had thought Anciong boxed a little back in his younger days, thus I posted it on the web. It looks like my info was wrong, however.

So easily can information get screwed up...:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by loki09789
The confusion seems to be because you aren't reading the post as it was written.

My point was the influence of western martial arts on the evolution of Balitawak, not the earliest history of western/eastern boxing. The lack of popularity is evident in how the boxing/western arts are trivialized in these discussions, not necessarily open hostility or rejection. The idea was that the western arts tend to be neglected when it comes to 'going back to the roots' discussions. I don't intend to say that there are any secrets of influences on MA or Balitawak, just that if the idea of higher level artists is to explore the roots of an art - or at least some of it's influences - then include the western arts. Sometimes it feels like if it isn't an eastern art, it ain't Sh*&.

How many of us have studied western fencing, or taken a boxing or wrestling class, and see how it fits. Even hockey, football, soccer... can teach us something about strategy and coordinated attack and defense, if we let it fit into our idea of adaptability. The single and double leg take down or a basic hip check can be just as good as any FMA or trad art technique for real fighting. Generals during WWII attributed their successes on the battlefield to the sport of football because it taught basic winning spirit and follow through in a team effort.

As far as the older influences on boxing, it was more than palm up or palm down and foot work. It was to concept of light vs. heavy. The roots of modern western boxing stem back to armored combatants with shield and sword (picture the old bare knuckle pictures of the industrial age stuff and you will see the similiarity), thus the lack of dynamic footwork and body movement compared to PI styles. The roots of PI or eastern boxing styles (chinese, mongolian, PI, Thai...) tend to be based on a light or no armor weapon history, thus the lightning footwork and slipperiness of the body motion.

In general, and I know there are exceptions, the armor of the western cultures was made to protect the fighter against swords and blunt attacks as it's first job. Thus, it is heavier and restricts some freedom of motion. But, the armor of most eastern cultures was designed to protect the fighter against arrows and missile attacks primarily. This allowed for more dynamic movement in comparison to the west.

Based on these roots, the influences on boxing or fighting arts is more than hand position or footwork, it comes down to strategic mindset of the art and how the historical evolution either fits/adapts or doesn't. Whoever did it, what ever the point in evolution you choose to pick, my point is it is all good if you can see the connections and the commonalities. Then, find the ones that fit what you are doing to accomplish your goals.

Paul Martin

Paul,

I am not a golden glove. Yet I have trained with Boxers and Wrestlers and fencers. I have played with live heavy blades and lighter blades, and enjoy the differences.

As to popularity, that is your opinion. Go search out some stuff that Gou Ronin and I discusses years ago about boxing. I agree that boxing is being tested everytime you get into the ring. Manong Ted Buot tests you every time you pick up the stick in a lesson with him.

I have played group sports including paint ball, tactics about using pinch points to have one or two people hold off a large force. To be able to use speed and stealth of one person to infiltrate the enemy line. And also the mind set that if I do this I will be out, yet the team has a much better chance of success. The idea of something greater than yourself.

As to Armor, the full body heavy armor in the West did not stick around for an extended period. Maybe just maybe the East through the Spanish/Italians/Portuguese and French decided that speed and agility were better, and once you got the turtle on his back or held you could thrust and still kill the armored person. Hence the use of padded or leather armor and lighter blades. Now who influenced who? Was it the East to the West? Could it have been both ways? OR was it West to East?

I still do not see your point about popularity. You make the innuendo and Tim comes out states that I and others do not have an open mind. Yet, I keep replying and referencing older posts, that state otherwise. You lead was like that everyone was going to disagree with you and you had some superior information. When it seems that almost everyone agrees that there was influence in both directions, and understanding these things is good. You say we ignore the Boxing portion, then go create a boxing thread and see if you can some responses and see if it is ignored.

Like I asked Tim for peace, and to stop assuming I am assuming somethign about him. I will ask you, and extended it to everyone else as well, please do not assume about me and I will not assume back. Do not put words into my mouth, I can and will state my mind as I see it or know it. Yet, I realize that Listening is the second half and most important half to Conversation and Dialogue as opposed to Monolgue.

What I have found through my life is the following:

When people argue from a point of weakness, they yell and ignore the other person.

When people make an insult this the insult they hate the most to be called.

When people make an innuedo, they are trying to cover their own short comings or failings.

Now as I and most of those that have been around for length of time online have posted, that you cannot see or feel the tone, or body language therefore it is hard to read text only. So, to avoid issue or problems I do not assume anything from a single post. If I see a series of posts, then I come out and ask. Not thinned skinned, just trying to clear up something I do not understand.

I apologize if I have misunderstood you. This is how I am reading it. You have a point to be made, and you want disagreement.

On my Phone Call with Panung Guro Tom Bolden, I believe he wanted me to call him to correct somethings I had said on line. Other then Toboada's Balintawak, which I thougt you or Curren had used first, I could be wrong, to be corrected to Balintawak Cuentada Escrima. As the Web Site states Balintawak Escrima Cuentada, I will make the asssumption that this was the intent by Mr. Bolden. As to the rest of the discussion, Maybe you guy should call him yourself and see what he had to say about influences. The reason I brign this up, and that Tom and I talked and listened to each other. We had a dialogue and conversation.

I am trying here, to understand why you say it is unpopular? I know many of us have investigated fencing and/or wrestling and/or boxing. I have no problems investigating roots. Heck I have been known to pick up a rock and use it as a tool as well. Talk about roots

 

[DoxN4cer]

Hi Guys,
Well compared to you guys, my exposure to Balintawak is sporadic and minimal, but enough to draw some basic comparisons. Perhaps "a lot more" concerning the roots of Balintawak was a not a prudent choice of syntax. I'm often limited on time that I can spend frivolously in front of a computer.

Back to Surigao... I don't know the reliability of this information, but prior to WWII, GM Bacon used to trade with a group of natives in Surigao (perhaps the fire walkers) that had a stickfighting method and their warriors were reportedly very fast and very skilled. It is speculated he had learned their system (agak style?) prior to the creation of the Balnitawak club. Does anybody have any further information on the subject?

I'll be back in a couple of weeks.

Tim Kashino

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
According to some research I did in the PI, there's a lot more to the the roots of Balintawak than the Savedras and the Doce Pares Society. Have any of you guys that train with Mr. Buot heard of Anciong Bacon's exploits with the natives in Suirgao?

Tim Kashino

Tim K,

For me to have any chance at all to know what the heck you are talking about to get anyone to look it up I ned to know exactly what you are talking about.

First is it the Natives of Suirgao? or Surigao as you queted in the second post on this. If you could quote your source, it might help in finding someone to validate or invalidate.

What base near Cebu did you work at? OR was it just the Docks along the coast?

I think it would be interesting to learn more, in particular if you have some place I could ask questions or do research other than the one living person I know who was there. There are others, still alive, I just do not talk to them on a weekly or daily basis.

Help us out, tell us the story of where you heard this? Spread the knowledge. Share the wealth.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Links I have found on Surigao PI

Surigao PI and here as well on the same site Same Site

Here is a Site that discusses Surfing, yet also discusses the location of Surigao.


And here is a list of Japanese Ships sunk in Surigao Sea

A cross listed PI site of the first Site

Here is an Introduction Site that references Surigao

Here is a cool Diary


There are lots and lots more sites, so thanks Tim K, I have learned even more today.

I still hope to get some information on this.

:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Links I have found for Surigao eskrima

The Origins of Eskrima By: Dr. Ned Nepangue

Here is a discussion on this article

Cyber Pinoys

A nice local site


This site has information on populations of cities in the PI.

:asian: