Modern Arnis/Balintawak/Relationships and other discussions

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Emptyglass

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Hi all:

Since I wanted to keep talking I did the thread split here myself from the Symposium DVD Review thread. And off we go...

Rich Parsons said:

Rich Curren,

Remy Presas trained first with Moncal, and then Maranga, and then Bacon. Bacon being the Grand Master of Balintawak.

Now, if you told me the two were exchanging old stories about Remy's class mates (* Tabaoda's Instructors, or Instructor to his instructor *), or that they were both reviewing stuff they had learned. I would agree. If you were to tell me that Bobby was showing Remy some of the stuff added in by his lineage, then I would also agree.

Yet to imply, that Taboada Balintawak influenced Modern Arnis in any significant way, I cannot believe. I will believe that Balintawak as it was taught to Remy by his three instructors, including Anciong Bacon, influenced Modern Arnis.

- Errrm, ok, I wasn't implying that, although Tim Kashino has done an ample job of explaining how I think it may have influenced the introduction and display of Tapi-Tapi (or Tapik-Tapik, etc...) to Modern Arnis players in general by the Professor. I was more speaking of Bacon's Balintawak more than Grandmaster Bobby's as he and the Professor both had the same teacher at one point. However, if you see GM Bobby's movement and introductory training material, I believe you will see the similarities between it and Modern Arnis (at least Modern Arnis as I was taught it). That should be a more precise clarification of what I was talking about.

Thanks,

Rich Curren
 

Dan Anderson

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Originally posted by Emptyglass
Yet to imply, that Taboada Balintawak influenced Modern Arnis in any significant way, I cannot believe. I will believe that Balintawak as it was taught to Remy by his three instructors, including Anciong Bacon, influenced Modern Arnis.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

I'd have to agree with that. I've seen GM Bobby Taboada and have been with Remy Presas since 1980 til his passing. Although the two have some similarities, from what I have seen of GM Taboada's art and movement, it didn't have any significant impact on Modern Arnis that I've seen.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
 

loki09789

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I have to agree with Rich Curren about the influence of GM Bobby's Bk. The only reason I can say that is because he (Rich) was the one who told me that he remembered Bobby at Remy seminars working quietly in the background. Bobby looked up to Remy as a Godparent (literally) and they did share Bk instructors from what I can remember GM Bobby explaining. I could remember wrong, but Rich's comments are sparking memories.

Interestingly, I was reading on a Balintawak International website that there are other names in the Bk lineage before Bacon, which makes sense. One of the names was a family of men named Sevreedo (Sp?) one of which named Doce Pares in honor of the Frenchman who taught him euro-fencing style while they were in prison together. At the first Balitawak Seminar I went to I mentioned to GM Bobby that I saw STRONG similiarities between my euro-fencing training and the Bk training. It was more than just the biomechanical stuff that a conceptual understanding would explain away. Bobby didn't really know what to say, so I just chalked it up to great minds thinking alike and stuff. I was on a logical track though... for once.

So, I guess the euro-fencing/western boxing influence on Doce Pares led to the innovations that Bk inherited and built on, which was changed because of the Shotokan stuff that Remy included in MA... and here we are. I don't think there is a single art that exists in a vacuum

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Check out this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...&perpage=15&highlight=Balintawak&pagenumber=4

On page 4 of this thread, Rich Parsons explains a little about the Saavadre Brothers Connection.

Anciong Bacon created Balintawak, so the linage starts with him. Just the same as Professor created Modern Arnis, starting the linage with Professor, but there were other instructors and styles that influenced this creation.

The basic story about the Saavadre conection goes as follows:

Anciong as well as the Canetes learned from the Saavadre brothers who tought their family style, which was a stick and dagger system. Anciong was a small, firery little guy; so when people would tick him off he would stab them pretty hard with his sharpened wooden dagger. So the Saavadres took his dagger away. Thus, Anciong had to perfect his skills w/o the use of the dagger. He found that the live hand was a very useful tool, so he grew to prefer this over the use of the dagger with the stick.

After WWII, the Saavadres had both been killed, so the remaining eskrimadors tried to revive the Labanong (sp?) fencing club and Doce' Pares Group. Due to Political conflicts, Anciong broke away from the Doce' Pares to start his own club, where people faught mainly with the stick, as opposed to both stick and dagger. The club was located in the watch repair shop off Balintawak Street, and became known as "the self defense club off Balintawak Street," which was eventually just called as "Balintawak Self Defense club," finally coining the term "Balintawak" as the name of the fighting style. To this day, the Doce' Pares still focus on Stick and dagger, while Balintawak focuses on just stick.

Point is, Prior to Anciong, there was no "Balintawak." Anciong had instructors, of course, influencing his developement, and the Saavadre Brothers were his 2 main instructors, thus explaining why they would be included in the linage.
 

Datu Tim Hartman

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I hear many of you commenting about Balintawak all of a sudden. My question is how many of you have ACTUALLY trained in the art enough to claim they to know what they are talking about?

:asian:
 

lhommedieu

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Anciong Bacon created Balintawak, so the linage starts with him. Just the same as Professor created Modern Arnis, starting the linage with Professor, but there were other instructors and styles that influenced this creation.

The basic story about the Saavadre conection goes as follows:

Anciong as well as the Canetes learned from the Saavadre brothers who tought their family style, which was a stick and dagger system. Anciong was a small, firery little guy; so when people would tick him off he would stab them pretty hard with his sharpened wooden dagger. So the Saavadres took his dagger away. Thus, Anciong had to perfect his skills w/o the use of the dagger. He found that the live hand was a very useful tool, so he grew to prefer this over the use of the dagger with the stick.

After WWII, the Saavadres had both been killed, so the remaining eskrimadors tried to revive the Labanong (sp?) fencing club and Doce' Pares Group. Due to Political conflicts, Anciong broke away from the Doce' Pares to start his own club, where people faught mainly with the stick, as opposed to both stick and dagger. The club was located in the watch repair shop off Balintawak Street, and became known as "the self defense club off Balintawak Street," which was eventually just called as "Balintawak Self Defense club," finally coining the term "Balintawak" as the name of the fighting style. To this day, the Doce' Pares still focus on Stick and dagger, while Balintawak focuses on just stick.

Point is, Prior to Anciong, there was no "Balintawak." Anciong had instructors, of course, influencing his developement, and the Saavadre Brothers were his 2 main instructors, thus explaining why they would be included in the linage.

See also:

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/momoy.htm

I believe that Bacon and Momoy were training partners during their years with the Saavedras.

Best,

Steve Lamade
 
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Rocky

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First you have to understand the 3 basic types of Balintawak, 1st the Original Bacon's Method or as some call it the Ungrouped version. Then there is the Modified ( but still ungrouped version) This is what Remy learned under Moncol, and Temor, I personally like Moncols a little better, less movement more direct. Then there is the Newest type, the Grouped version, geared more towards teaching more than one person at a time, this is GM Vilison's (sp), Gm Valez, Super Kuentada and various other methods. Now the last one I mentioned the Grouped version has many off shoots, like GM Tabaoda who learned mostly the grouped version, but also from others, not to mention his real life street fights and what not, so he added all his experience into his own Grouped version. Cuentada De Mano ( my art ) could also be considered an off shoot of both the grouped and un grouped versions.

Modern Arnis, gets its liniar movements from Balintawak, both Original and Modified, but not the Grouped version. The grouped versions are just a natural progression of all combat arts. Ok boys and girls can anyone guess why Remy studied the Modified version and why it was so important to his training, and no its not just because one of the instructors was left handed like him???????????

I have never studied the Grouped versions of Balintawak yet I make the statement that my Cuentada De Mano, shares a liniage or can be considered an off shoot of the Grouped versions, I know you are probably saying Rocky are you nuts!!!. Knope!!!! just a little punchy.

You see basically the grouped versions are just teaching methods that vary from that of the classical mess as Bruce Lee would say. You see in the more traditional arts that have no set patterens to their teaching it would take you a life time to go from white belt to blackbelt if you could only train once or twice a week in a class room setting , you could do it faster if you trained privately, but not as many people could progress at the art as the qualified instructors only have so much time. So many of the tradional students like myself, and many of the old timers back in Cebu, noticed that whenever you trained with your Master that certain movements pop up over and over. WOW I THINK I JUST HEARD ALL OF GM BUOT"S STUDENTS THINKING LIGHTS POP ON!!!:) Well guess what some of us said hey! I could take these 4, 5 , or 10 moves that seem to come up all the time and make a drill out of them to teach the masses. BINGO Group Balintwak ( are you writing this down ) . Now some of the old timers went on and continued calling it Balintawak, which is their right, but not something I would do. So when I was putting together my art, which is heavily influenced by both Modified and traditional Balintawak, along with Pekiti, Katch fighting and Ukrainian wrestling, I chose to us a name that would not take any glory or somehow disrespect my Masters in Balintawak ( Buot & Presas)

Grouped Balintawak is pretty much how all martial arts evolved. Back many many moons ago, even before Master Andersons time not to much further back!!! there was this hunter/gatherer, we'll call him (Dan) and everytime he would get a hand full of nuts or berries, someone, we'll call him (Rich) would take them away, so he went back to his dad and said "Ugh everytime I find em berries Rich hits me in the face and takes them Ugh. So the father we'll call him (Jim) said "UGH next time you gettem berries and he tries to hit you, you put hand up like this and stop him then you kick him in the Weenie!! UgH!! So next time Rich trys to take Dan's berries thats exacticaly what Dan does. But!!! The next time Dan tries to protect himself, Rich blocks the kick to the Weenie and punches Dan in the upper epiglotis :) So Dan goes back and says "Ugh dad it didn't work, so he and his dad worked out a solution to the counter that Rich had learned to Dans counter and Bam!! martial arts was born!!! Then came contracts and belts the end!!

Here endith the lesson!!!

By the way this will be covered more in depth in the first chapeter of my book due out in the spring " The fundimentals of Classical Balintawak"




Rocky
 
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Rocky

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The ever graceful Renegade Wrote:


I hear many of you commenting about Balintawak all of a sudden. My question is how many of you have ACTUALLY trained in the art enough to claim they to know what they are talking about?


Ditto!!!


Welcome to my world!


Rocky
 
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Rocky

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Steve Wrote:

believe that Bacon and Momoy were training partners during their years with the Saavedras.


Yepper Momoy and Yolang (sp)


Thats why I feel my only logical next step is to train in San Magel.
As soon as my health issues are taken care of.


You can never truely understand an art unless you understand its liniage or roots, I know Anciong was taought differantly than the Canette's but I there still has to be some reminances of his early training. Just as Modern Arnis gets its upper body movement and block and lock from Moncols Balintawak and its liniar lower body movement from Original Balintawak.


Rocky
 

pesilat

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Originally posted by Renegade
I hear many of you commenting about Balintawak all of a sudden. My question is how many of you have ACTUALLY trained in the art enough to claim they to know what they are talking about?

:asian:

While I know this wasn't directed at me (since I almost never talk about Balintawak), I'll just take the opportunity to state my Balintawak background for future reference. The only Balintawak I've been exposed to, thus far, is GM Bobby Taboada's "grouped" version. I've been training in it (though obviously not exclusively) since 1995.

Since I only speak up when (a) I feel I can honestly contribute or (b) my opinion is directly asked, I almost never talk about Balintawak and when I do, I try to be very specific about what perspective I'm speaking from :)

That aside, I'm curious about the answer to your question, too, Tim. I travel quite a bit and can count on one hand the number of Balintawak players (of any lineage) that I've encountered around the country. Even counting the people (like you and Rocky and some others) that I know online, I'd be hardpressed to come up with 2 handfuls.

Oh well :) Not sure why I felt compelled to toss my 1.5 cents in here, but there they are.

BTW ... nice to see you here, Rocky :)

Mike
 

lhommedieu

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Originally posted by Rocky

You can never truely understand an art unless you understand its liniage or roots, I know Anciong was taought differantly than the Canette's but I there still has to be some reminances of his early training.

Rocky,

You're welcome any time. Personally, I've always been interested in Bacon's method of eskrima, for the same reasons. Although it could be argued that Canete and Bacon went in opposite directions (Momoy concentrated on espada y daga, while Bacon developed a single stick art), I suspect that both arts still carry the imprint of the Saavedra family method, and are thus complementary in some way. So little has been published about the Saavedras of which I am aware - I keep hoping that some day, someone (in the Cebu community?) will write their story.

Best,

Steve Lamade
 

Datu Tim Hartman

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Originally posted by pesilat
While I know this wasn't directed at me (since I almost never talk about Balintawak), I'll just take the opportunity to state my Balintawak background for future reference. The only Balintawak I've been exposed to, thus far, is GM Bobby Taboada's "grouped" version. I've been training in it (though obviously not exclusively) since 1995.

Since I only speak up when (a) I feel I can honestly contribute or (b) my opinion is directly asked, I almost never talk about Balintawak and when I do, I try to be very specific about what perspective I'm speaking from :)

That aside, I'm curious about the answer to your question, too, Tim. I travel quite a bit and can count on one hand the number of Balintawak players (of any lineage) that I've encountered around the country. Even counting the people (like you and Rocky and some others) that I know online, I'd be hardpressed to come up with 2 handfuls.

You're right this was not directed at you, but your responce is appreciated.:asian:
 

Datu Tim Hartman

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For the record this is my training backgroung in Balintawak.

My fisrt year I would get up once a month at 5:15am and drive to Detroit and arrive at 10:00 am for my morning class which would last till noon. I would take a 2 hour lunch and do my second class from 2:00 pm till 4:00 pm. Then I would drive back to Buffalo and would arrive home between 10pm - midnight based on how many stops I did.

My second year I would get up once a month at 5:15am and drive to Detroit and arrive at 10:00 am for my morning class which would last till noon. I would take a 2 hour lunch and do my second class from 2:00 pm till 3:00 pm. Then I would drive back to Buffalo and would arrive home between 10pm - midnight based on how many stops I did.

My third year I would get up once a month at 6:00am and drive to Detroit and arrive at 11:00 am for my morning class which would last till 1:00pm. Then I would drive back to Buffalo and would arrive home between 8pm - 11pm based on how many stops I did.

A lot of hassle, but well worth the investment in time.

I'm in my 4th year of training and going strong!
 

Cruentus

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Originally posted by lhommedieu

Although it could be argued that Canete and Bacon went in opposite directions (Momoy concentrated on espada y daga, while Bacon developed a single stick art), I suspect that both arts still carry the imprint of the Saavedra family method, and are thus complementary in some way. So little has been published about the Saavedras of which I am aware - I keep hoping that some day, someone (in the Cebu community?) will write their story.

Best,

Steve Lamade

Nice post and I fully agree! :D
 
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Emptyglass

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Hi Tim:

Aside from a few seminars with GM Taboada and/or his students over the years, my Balintiwak instruction comes from my current instructor Guro Bobby Ladra here in Baltimore.

We have a small group (4-6 people) and you can check it out here:

http://balintawakseminars.5u.com/

We're small but we train quite a bit for people with day jobs (4-5 days a week, 2-5 hours a night). We actually hosted GM Taboada here recently and Chad Dulin was there at that seminar.

I've also done some investigation and observation on my own. I'm still just a beginner (in my eyes) so my opinions are based upon my current experience. As I gain more knowledge over time I will have that much more information to draw from.

However, my opinions (regardless of what anyone thinks of them) are my own and will remain as they currently are until I see reason to modify them due to new or better information.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

Originally posted by Renegade
I hear many of you commenting about Balintawak all of a sudden. My question is how many of you have ACTUALLY trained in the art enough to claim they to know what they are talking about?

:asian:
 
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Emptyglass

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Originally posted by Rocky


By the way this will be covered more in depth in the first chapeter of my book due out in the spring " The fundimentals of Classical Balintawak"

Rocky


Rocky:

Looking forward to reading that one. Please keep me informed where and how that will be available.

Thanks,

Rich Curren
 
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