Modern Arnis/Balintawak/Relationships and other discussions

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Emptyglass

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Originally posted by Rich Parsons

Yet, a nice topic to discuss, I just wish it was so Frivolous a discussion about the roots of Balintwak which you (Tim K), Paul M, and Rich C all seem very willing to discuss and spout information.

:asian:

Hi Rich:

Actually, I never professed to have any deeper knowledge than anyone (reread my posts please) about the roots of Balintawak (in this case GGM Anciong Bacon's original system as taught by him in the early-mid 20th century). Although, I believe I did meet and witness the skill of GM Bobby Taboada before any of the other Arnis players from the Buffalo area did (with the exception of Tim Kashino who was with me at the time). Not that that counts for jack-squat.

In fact there are many on this thread who have already posted who have invested much more time and effort into the research of that subject than honestly I am interested in doing right now. I'm spending all of my martial arts training time on trying to learn the physical/psychological concepts of Grand Master Bobby Taboada's Balintawak Escrima Cuentada System. I have a long way to go in my opinion.

I was interested in talking about Balintawak influences in Modern Arnis and how I see similarities between things I have been shown and practiced in Modern Arnis (from both GM Remy Presas and Dr. Jerome Barber) and GM Taboada's system. Since there will invariably be someone who asks exactly what I mean, I'm referring to the economy of motion in striking and footwork in the corto/medio mano range, use of the hip and legs for power generation, brace and force to force blocking technniques along vertical lines, baiting and enganyo techniques among some other things.

Some may assert that these things are common to all good FMA's and that may very well be true (in fact I feel it is true).

Thanks,

Rich Curren
 

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Originally posted by loki09789
Rich,

I took this to email, comments here are not productive.

Paul Martin

I replied by e-mail.

Thank You
:asian:
 
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DoctorB

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Originally posted by Emptyglass
Hi Rich:

Actually, I never professed to have any deeper knowledge than anyone (reread my posts please) about the roots of Balintawak (in this case GGM Anciong Bacon's original system as taught by him in the early-mid 20th century). Although, I believe I did meet and witness the skill of GM Bobby Taboada before any of the other Arnis players from the Buffalo area did (with the exception of Tim Kashino who was with me at the time). Not that that counts for jack-squat.

In fact there are many on this thread who have already posted who have invested much more time and effort into the research of that subject than honestly I am interested in doing right now. I'm spending all of my martial arts training time on trying to learn the physical/psychological concepts of Grand Master Bobby Taboada's Balintawak Escrima Cuentada System. I have a long way to go in my opinion.

I was interested in talking about Balintawak influences in Modern Arnis and how I see similarities between things I have been shown and practiced in Modern Arnis (from both GM Remy Presas and Dr. Jerome Barber) and GM Taboada's system. Since there will invariably be someone who asks exactly what I mean, I'm referring to the economy of motion in striking and footwork in the corto/medio mano range, use of the hip and legs for power generation, brace and force to force blocking technniques along vertical lines, baiting and enganyo techniques among some other things.

Some may assert that these things are common to all good FMA's and that may very well be true (in fact I feel it is true).

Thanks,

Rich Curren

"GGM Bacon", a phrase first given to us and spoken with great reverence by GM Bobby Taboada, here in Buffalo in 1995. Too bad some people who do not know the man, have not studied with him and do not know his variant of the art insist on refering to him as "Bobby" and to "Taboada Balintawak". I have never met Manong Ted Buot, but out of respect for someone who has been in the arts longer than myself, I always refer to him as "GM Ted", or "Monong Ted". I understand that GM Bobby, recognized GM Ted as his senior in Balintawak under GGM Bacon; the late GM Presas, recognized, GM Bobby as a classmate under GM Bacon, so out of respect for GM Ted and GM Remy, those of you who claim lineage throgh GMs Bout and Presas, might want to start using a more respectful terminology with regard to GM Bobby Taboada.

Richard is correct, he and Tim Kashino did meet and workout with GM Bobby BEFORE ANY OTHER FMAist in the Buffalo area. In fact my group along with Tom Bolden's students were working in the Balintawak art BEFORE any other Buffalo area or NY State FMAist.

Economy of Motion, footwork and evasion are integral parts of my instructional program and even though I did not become the WNY Rep for Balintawak Cuentada Escrima Arnis - the offical and correct organization name that GM Bobby teaches under - one of my students did achieve that distinction. Quite simply he is better at balintawak than I am, it suits his mentality and movement principles better than mine!

My students have a very good idea about the structure, style, mechanics and history of Balintawak from the GGM Bacon lineage including GM Bout and GM Dom Lopez and we got started back in 1995.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
 

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Originally posted by Emptyglass
Hi Rich:

Hi Rich C,

Originally posted by Emptyglass
Actually, I never professed to have any deeper knowledge than anyone (reread my posts please) about the roots of Balintawak (in this case GGM Anciong Bacon's original system as taught by him in the early-mid 20th century). Although, I believe I did meet and witness the skill of GM Bobby Taboada before any of the other Arnis players from the Buffalo area did (with the exception of Tim Kashino who was with me at the time). Not that that counts for jack-squat.

No Deeper knowledge, well on this thread, maybe. And I grant you that, I guess I was being wrong about you and Paul M and TIm K. You all seem to take a different stance and make points back and forth. All taking turns. Somehow, somewhere, Tom Bolden gets involved. Nice conversation we had. We agreed more than disagreed. Point in order you should call him, you might learn some things.

As to Witnessing Balintawak before all the rest of us. Not that it matters, I was there to pick up GM Remy Presas from the Airport in 1987. I had picked up Rocky (* Not bringing Rocky into this *) first. Rocky walks up to GM R Presas and greets up, and the first ting our of Remy's mouth after how are you? is .... "Show me what Ted has Shown You". I got to witness Balintawak in teh Airport in the summer of 1987, and a few days later at the Michigan Summer Camp. Not that it matters.

Originally posted by Emptyglass
In fact there are many on this thread who have already posted who have invested much more time and effort into the research of that subject than honestly I am interested in doing right now. I'm spending all of my martial arts training time on trying to learn the physical/psychological concepts of Grand Master Bobby Taboada's Balintawak Escrima Cuentada System. I have a long way to go in my opinion.

RIch C, I honestly wish you luck and good training in your goal.

Originally posted by Emptyglass
I was interested in talking about Balintawak influences in Modern Arnis and how I see similarities between things I have been shown and practiced in Modern Arnis (from both GM Remy Presas and Dr. Jerome Barber) and GM Taboada's system. Since there will invariably be someone who asks exactly what I mean, I'm referring to the economy of motion in striking and footwork in the corto/medio mano range, use of the hip and legs for power generation, brace and force to force blocking technniques along vertical lines, baiting and enganyo techniques among some other things.

Nicely put!

In Modern Arnis, the brace block is used, in Balintawak after five years of training, I have not seen it in Balintawak. So, yes I can see the similarites and the differences. And to have this discussion is fine. Yet, as Tim K keeps stating keep an open mind and allow for the difference in lineages and techniques and instructions. I do.

I would like to discuss the baiting aspect. Thoughts?

Originally posted by Emptyglass
Some may assert that these things are common to all good FMA's and that may very well be true (in fact I feel it is true).

Thanks,

Rich Curren

Some of these things are common, in philosphy and others in technique, yet the combinations allow for the difference in the arts. One could always say the body can only move in a finite motion and joints move and have strees points as well. Therefore if you find these stress points you then have technique. Or places to strike your technique.

Best Regards
:asian:
 

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Originally posted by DoctorB
"GGM Bacon", a phrase first given to us and spoken with great reverence by GM Bobby Taboada, here in Buffalo in 1995. Too bad some people who do not know the man, have not studied with him and do not know his variant of the art insist on referring to him as "Bobby" and to "Taboada Balintawak". I have never met Manong Ted Buot, but out of respect for someone who has been in the arts longer than myself, I always refer to him as "GM Ted", or "Manong Ted". I understand that GM Bobby, recognized GM Ted as his senior in Balintawak under GGM Bacon; the late GM Presas, recognized, GM Bobby as a classmate under GM Bacon, so out of respect for GM Ted and GM Remy, those of you who claim lineage thorough GMs Bout and Presas, might want to start using a more respectful terminology with regard to GM Bobby Taboada.

Hi Jerome,

I never meant disrespect to GM Taboada.

I used the term Taboada Balintawak I thought after seeing it elsewhere. After my discussion with Panung Guro Tom Bolden, I have only used Balintawak Eskrima Cuentada or Balintawak Cuentada Eskrima as Mr. Bolden told me.

As to GM Taboada being a classmate under GM Bacon, I beg to differ. No disrespect to GM Taboada. Now if you mean Under GM Bacon as in a student under GM Pilo Vilez under GM Attn Joe Villasin under GM Anciong Bacon. Then yes I agree.

I have used respectful terminology, for I never meant disrespect to GM Taboada. I do apologize for the misspelling though.

Maybe you your self good Doctor, should use the same in return. For those who claim lineage through GM Buot and GM Presas. I claim nothing, I made the statement.

Are you calling me or maybe others a liar? Are you insulting me or others?

Originally posted by DoctorB
Richard is correct, he and Tim Kashino did meet and workout with GM Bobby BEFORE ANY OTHER FMAist in the Buffalo area. In fact my group along with Tom Bolden's students were working in the Balintawak art BEFORE any other Buffalo area or NY State FMAist.

And like Richard said what does that matter? I have seen Balintawak back in the mid 1980's. What does that mean?

Originally posted by DoctorB
Economy of Motion, footwork and evasion are integral parts of my instructional program and even though I did not become the WNY Rep for Balintawak Cuentada Escrima Arnis - the official and correct organization name that GM Bobby teaches under - one of my students did achieve that distinction. Quite simply he is better at Balintawak than I am, it suits his mentality and movement principles better than mine!

Good for your student. Paul Martin I believe?

So, now we all know that GM Taboada teaches Balintawak Cuentada Escrima Arnis. I will use this term form now and type it out. I expect the same from all of your students and those that are not your students to do the same.

Balintawak - GM Buot
Balintawak Cuentada Eskrima Arnis - GM Taboada
Villasin (Grouped) Balintawak - GM Villasin also GM Lopez
Mongcal's Balintawak - GM Mongcal - GM Veeck(?)
Maranga's Tres Persona's - GM Maranga

Are these the terms we can agree upon? Any Feedback or corrections?

Originally posted by DoctorB
My students have a very good idea about the structure, style, mechanics and history of Balintawak from the GGM Bacon lineage including GM Bout and GM Dom Lopez and we got started back in 1995.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Yes your students have a good understanding as your stated of Balintawak Cuentada Eskrima Arnis though GM Taboada, through GM Vilez, through GM Villasin, to GM Bacon. A very excellent lineage. GM Taboada I believe has admitted he has added in Boxing and Abiniko (* Choose your spelling *) and Sinawali's and more. It is also well know that GM Attn Villasin also grouped the techniques for easier instruction.

GM Buot states he has keep the techniques exactly the same as taught by GM Anciong Bacon. So, I admit that there are differences, people admit that they have added, therefore by definition it cannot be the exact same. So, as Tim K has stated numerous times keep an open mind. I try to. I listen to what you and everyone else has said. I can see the similarities, yet I also see the differences.

As to starting in 1995. Good. How many hours? How much contact? Seminar hours versus private one on one lessons? Just curious?

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Originally posted by Emptyglass
Although, I believe I did meet and witness the skill of GM Bobby Taboada before any of the other Arnis players from the Buffalo area did (with the exception of Tim Kashino who was with me at the time). Not that that counts for jack-squat.

Actually Jeff Rech and myself met GM Bobby in North Carolina around 94 when he was featured at a Big 4 seminar that Irwin Carmicheal (sp) hosted. This happened before GM Bobby ever came to Buffalo. I would have loved to come to the Buffalo camps, but Jerome always scheduled them the same time as the Michigan IMAF camp.
 
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Rocky

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Whats up Doc, good to see you back!!!!

I do have a couple of little bones to pick though sorry!!


Doc Wrote:

GGM Bacon", a phrase first given to us and spoken with great reverence by GM Bobby Taboada, here in Buffalo in 1995. Too bad some people who do not know the man, have not studied with him and do not know his variant of the art insist on refering to him as "Bobby" and to "Taboada Balintawak". I have never met Manong Ted Buot, but out of respect for someone who has been in the arts longer than myself, I always refer to him as "GM Ted", or "Monong Ted". I understand that GM Bobby, recognized GM Ted as his senior in Balintawak under GGM Bacon; the late GM Presas, recognized, GM Bobby as a classmate under GM Bacon, so out of respect for GM Ted and GM Remy, those of you who claim lineage throgh GMs Bout and Presas, might want to start using a more respectful terminology with regard to GM Bobby Taboada

I have always and quite often recieved heat for refering to Anciong as Great Grand Master, check the Eskrima Digest as far back as the yearly 90s.

Secondly Gm Presas was Senior to GM Buot who was Senior to GM Taboada. In fact GGM Bacon hadn't developed Abecidario yet when GM Presas was training with him. Master Edwards and myself taught GM Presas Abecedario. GM Taboada was more of a student of Telo Velez (sp) this is wat GM Taboada told GM Buot. However GM Taboada did do some training with GGM Bacon after GM Buot left in 1974, this is why GM Toboada is more like the Grouped version of Balintawak.

If you are lucky enough to train with any of these guys you got it made. So as far as trining goes it ultimately is what you put into it.

As far as respect goes I agree with you Doc, you have always spoke with respect when speaking of Gm Buot or GM Presas when I have talked with you. But people must understand that just because you may have been on the outs with someone and may not agree with other personal issues, it doesn't mean you had no respect for them. And as a reminder to my self and other, becuase I very quilty of it, we should not refer to any of these guys by first name.

Doc also Wrote:

Richard is correct, he and Tim Kashino did meet and workout with GM Bobby BEFORE ANY OTHER FMAist in the Buffalo area. In fact my group along with Tom Bolden's students were working in the Balintawak art BEFORE any other Buffalo area or NY State FMAist

Well again this might be picked up as nit picking. You may ( I am not in the loop in Buf. anymore) be the first official group in Buf. But yours truely was teaching Don Zanghi, moncols Balintawak back in the mid 80's. And I was showing Tim H. Abecedario when ever he had me in for a seminar in the early 90s. But again its kind of knit picky on my part I know.

Lastly: Doc Wrote:
My students have a very good idea about the structure, style, mechanics and history of Balintawak from the GGM Bacon lineage including GM Bout and GM Dom Lopez and we got started back in 1995.

I know you have seen me demo Anciongs Balintawak and maybe even some of Moncols and Maranga's. But the body mechanics of GGM Bacons, and now GM Buots Balintawak is way way way different. In fact When one of Dom Lopez's guys came down from Canada our movement totally confused him. Original Balintawak is so much neater, less movement, very very close not near as much swaying as many of the modified versions, not to say one is better than the other, cause again its what you put into it. In fact I had just mentioned to Rich on the phone today GM presas didn't train in the modified version just because one of the instructors was left handed as he was, but more because of some of the unique blocking and locking that they prcticed that Gm Presas perfered. That and he left Anciong because, he and Delphane Lopez, (Gm Buots Uncle) had a bit of an issue, and while GM Presas was a great stick fighter, Dephane packed a 45, and when a man with a 45 meets a man with a stick that is better then he is, the man with the 45 will probably shoot the man with the stick.

Anyways you really have to train with Gm Buot to understand our body mechanics and move, in relation to the other Balintawak GM, no disrespect intended to them

Rich Wrote:



As to Witnessing Balintawak before all the rest of us. Not that it matters, I was there to pick up GM Remy Presas from the Airport in 1987. I had picked up Rocky (* Not bringing Rocky into this *) first. Rocky walks up to GM R Presas and greets up, and the first ting our of Remy's mouth after how are you? is .... "Show me what Ted has Shown You". I got to witness Balintawak in teh Airport in the summer of 1987, and a few days later at the Michigan Summer Camp. Not that it matters.

WOW that was you!!!! Cool!!


I am sure if Remy was alive today and we tried to do some of the things we did back then in an Airport, we would have new full time jobs watching each others back in the big house.


Rocky
 
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Emptyglass

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Originally posted by Rich Parsons

No Deeper knowledge, well on this thread, maybe. And I grant you that, I guess I was being wrong about you and Paul M and TIm K. You all seem to take a different stance and make points back and forth. All taking turns. Somehow, somewhere, Tom Bolden gets involved. Nice conversation we had. We agreed more than disagreed. Point in order you should call him, you might learn some things.

As to Witnessing Balintawak before all the rest of us. Not that it matters, I was there to pick up GM Remy Presas from the Airport in 1987. I had picked up Rocky (* Not bringing Rocky into this *) first. Rocky walks up to GM R Presas and greets up, and the first ting our of Remy's mouth after how are you? is .... "Show me what Ted has Shown You". I got to witness Balintawak in teh Airport in the summer of 1987, and a few days later at the Michigan Summer Camp. Not that it matters.

In Modern Arnis, the brace block is used, in Balintawak after five years of training, I have not seen it in Balintawak. So, yes I can see the similarites and the differences. And to have this discussion is fine. Yet, as Tim K keeps stating keep an open mind and allow for the difference in lineages and techniques and instructions. I do.

I would like to discuss the baiting aspect. Thoughts?

Best Regards
:asian:

Hi Rich P (to keep people from getting confused as we share the same name):

A few points of clarification on some of the above statements.

1. What thread are you referring to? I've never claimed to be an authority on Balintawak. Online or off. Simply an interested student.

2. You need to read more carefully, please. I said I was the first student from the Buffalo area to meet GM Bobby Taboada and witness Balintawak Eskrima Cuentada shown by him at GM Remy Presas' camp in Charlotte, NC at Irwin Carmichael's school in '93 (or was it '92, I can't remember anymore). If you're going to intimate that I am incorrect, please at least get the facts correct as to what I typed. Thanks.

3. Rich, I've known PG Tom Bolden for many years now. I was introduced to him in the early '90's when Dr. Barber and I used to drive to Poughkeepsie, NY to see GM Remy Presas and him. I've gone to his camps, talked to him on the phone, sat down to dinner with him and learned a great many things from him about the practice and history of Arnis, Kenpo and the Filipino Martial Arts. Although I don't talk to him on the phone as often as I would like, I like to think that we are friendly if not friends. This being said, perhaps I should give him a call and find out what's new since we talked, trained and had dinner together at the Symposium this past summer. Thanks for the tip.

4. As for having an open mind, I haven't criticized, countered or said boo about anything anyone has said in this conversation. I have no idea what goes on in the style of Balintawak you practice, nor do I claim to. Where does this statement come from: " Yet, as Tim K keeps stating keep an open mind and allow for the difference in lineages and techniques and instructions."?
When have I ever said anything that would evidence my mind if closed to new ideas? Why are stating you think I have a closed mind without any statements from me to reinforce that position? What are you doing?

5. As for baiting aspects, sure we can talk about them. My thoughts on them are that I currently am not good enough at Arnis to pull them off very often on purpose and that baiting takes a very complex combination of training and practice to accomplish adequately as well as good body mechanics, opponent sensitivity and the willingness to take a shot in a sensitive area if you don't pull them off correctly. My current instructor Guro Bobby Ladra is an accomplished baiter and I'm doing my best to learn the lessons he's showing me to increase my own skills.

Thanks for responding,

Rich Curren
 
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Emptyglass

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Originally posted by Renegade
Actually Jeff Rech and myself met GM Bobby in North Carolina around 94 when he was featured at a Big 4 seminar that Irwin Carmicheal (sp) hosted. This happened before GM Bobby ever came to Buffalo. I would have loved to come to the Buffalo camps, but Jerome always scheduled them the same time as the Michigan IMAF camp.

As I've stated, I met GM Taboada before that with Tim Kashino at one of the Professor's camps that Irwin Carmichael hosted in Charlotte. I believe it was in '93 but I can't remember for sure anymore (Dr. Barber or Tim Kashino - do you remember the exact date, am I making a false statement here by accident?) I got my Lakan at the Michigan camp in '92 and I believe we made that trip either just after or just before that camp.

I do remember that Tim Kashino and I were the only 2 players from Buffalo who attended and that the car ride down to and back from Charlotte was monumental. Dr. Barber didn't bring GM Taboada to Buffalo until after I left the area in 1995. I don't think I ever saw GM Taboada in Buffalo and I'm sorry I missed out on the opportunity as one of those times, GM Taboada was there with Sifu-Guro Billy Bryant and Punong Guro Tom Bolden. That is a heavy-duty card in my opinion.

If I'm in error I apologize as it is purely unintentional and I will acknowledge that if it turns out to be true. However, as has been stated, this is all pretty valueless and off-topic. I apologize to everyone for even bringing it up and continuing it on.

However, I don't want the facts to be misconstrued by accident.

Salamat po,

Rich Curren
 

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Originally posted by Emptyglass
Hi Rich P (to keep people from getting confused as we share the same name):

A few points of clarification on some of the above statements.

1. What thread are you referring to? I've never claimed to be an authority on Balintawak. Online or off. Simply an interested student.

Rich C, After the re-read of this and other threads. I apologize for the inference. I can see your point.

Originally posted by Emptyglass
2. You need to read more carefully, please. I said I was the first student from the Buffalo area to meet GM Bobby Taboada and witness Balintawak Eskrima Cuentada shown by him at GM Remy Presas' camp in Charlotte, NC at Irwin Carmichael's school in '93 (or was it '92, I can't remember anymore). If you're going to intimate that I am incorrect, please at least get the facts correct as to what I typed. Thanks.

I did not bring in the dates of when you were there, Rich. All I said was that I had also see it also in the mid 80's and agreed with you, as to the fact that it did not matter. I di dnot mean to cause further confusion. I only referenced my dates not yours.

Originally posted by Emptyglass
3. Rich, I've known PG Tom Bolden for many years now. I was introduced to him in the early '90's when Dr. Barber and I used to drive to Poughkeepsie, NY to see GM Remy Presas and him. I've gone to his camps, talked to him on the phone, sat down to dinner with him and learned a great many things from him about the practice and history of Arnis, Kenpo and the Filipino Martial Arts. Although I don't talk to him on the phone as often as I would like, I like to think that we are friendly if not friends. This being said, perhaps I should give him a call and find out what's new since we talked, trained and had dinner together at the Symposium this past summer. Thanks for the tip.

Yes, he has lots of information. He went out of his way to have Tim K contact me with his phone number to call him. I really enjoyed it. :)

Originally posted by Emptyglass
4. As for having an open mind, I haven't criticized, countered or said boo about anything anyone has said in this conversation. I have no idea what goes on in the style of Balintawak you practice, nor do I claim to. Where does this statement come from: " Yet, as Tim K keeps stating keep an open mind and allow for the difference in lineages and techniques and instructions."?
When have I ever said anything that would evidence my mind if closed to new ideas? Why are stating you think I have a closed mind without any statements from me to reinforce that position? What are you doing?

Rich C, You claim an open mind. I will accept you at that and take your statment as truth about yourself. The next time you converse with me it will be with two open minds.

Originally posted by Emptyglass
5. As for baiting aspects, sure we can talk about them. My thoughts on them are that I currently am not good enough at Arnis to pull them off very often on purpose and that baiting takes a very complex combination of training and practice to accomplish adequately as well as good body mechanics, opponent sensitivity and the willingness to take a shot in a sensitive area if you don't pull them off correctly. My current instructor Guro Bobby Ladra is an accomplished baiter and I'm doing my best to learn the lessons he's showing me to increase my own skills.

Thanks for responding,

Rich Curren

Guro Ladra, who had taught you the knife drill? Well then continue the work and learning.

Thanks for responding,
 

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Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Hi Guys,
Well compared to you guys, my exposure to Balintawak is sporadic and minimal, but enough to draw some basic comparisons. Perhaps "a lot more" concerning the roots of Balintawak was a not a prudent choice of syntax. I'm often limited on time that I can spend frivolously in front of a computer.

Back to Surigao... I don't know the reliability of this information, but prior to WWII, GM Bacon used to trade with a group of natives in Surigao (perhaps the fire walkers) that had a stickfighting method and their warriors were reportedly very fast and very skilled. It is speculated he had learned their system (agak style?) prior to the creation of the Balnitawak club. Does anybody have any further information on the subject?

Just got off the phone with GM Buot. He has no clue what you're talking about.

I don't know why everyone thinks they're an expert on Balintawak now. Lets clear some things up. As a student of GM Buot we get a very unique learning experience.

1. All classes are private lessons with GM Buot himself. This allows for better learning and gives the student the option to ask as many questions as they want without holding anyone back.

2. During the classes, we are not only taught the history of each move, we are also taught the history of the art.


That being said, I feel that several of the people making comments on this thread are misinformed and talking through their ***. When you learn a system through seminars and camps, it takes much longer to get the history of the system youre studying. At training events we try to work on the technical end and often neglect the historical and cultural side of things. With the training that I receive from Manong Buot, Im fortunate to receive information concerning ALL aspects of Balintawak.

I think the point that everyone seems to be missing is that there is only one person ever authorized to teach at the original Balintawak club when Bacon wasnt present and that was Manong Buot. Manong Buot is in his 70s. Many of the other Grandmasters are second and third generation students. With each generation students pieces of a systems history are lost.

What I dont understand is why people feel that the Buot students dont know what were talking about when it come to our history. We have direct contact with Manong Buot on a regular basis and our teacher was there as a direct student of GM Bacon. As far as this evolution goes I have to disagree. The system is being taught as it was meant to be, and GM Buot is teaching it. There is nothing wrong with the other programs out there, but there was only ONE Balintawak Eskrima. The other systems came from the original. This is not to say that their programs arent good, what Im saying is their programs arent accurate representation of the original system.

Ill use myself as an example. When my students become black belts I begin to teach them elements of Balintawak. I make sure that my students know that they are learning elements and not the whole system. The program is a step away from the original. This is not to say that I dont to do a good job with my students, what I will say is that my hybrid program doesnt accurately represent the system.

Again, I dont understand the problem:

1. Bobby Taboada was a student of Pilo Velez.
2. Pilo Velez was a student of Joe Villasan.
3. Joe Villasan was a student of Anciong Bacon.


This makes GM Bobby a 3rd generation student of Bacon. Ted Buot was a 1st generation student and was there for much of the history. In addition he is also related to Bacon and made it easier to find out about family history. As in the game pass it on, each time a story is told by a new person the facts start to lose their integrity.
 

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Back to Surigao... I don't know the reliability of this information, but prior to WWII, GM Bacon used to trade with a group of natives in Surigao (perhaps the fire walkers) that had a stickfighting method and their warriors were reportedly very fast and very skilled. It is speculated he had learned their system (agak style?) prior to the creation of the Balnitawak club. Does anybody have any further information on the subject?

It is looking as if that is wholey untrue, and a fancy rumor. I just saw Manong Ted today, and I asked him. Ted believes that it is very unlikely that he was severly influenced by anyone outside of the Saavadre group. He is checking further, but he had never heard of this idea, and all of Anciongs training references where with the Saavadres.

Things weren't as ecclectic as they are now a days. martial artists 50 and 100 years ago didn't learn a little Arnis, a little JKD, a little ju-jitsu, a littel Karate, a little Soyac, etc.,etc. etc. If there one style addressed every situation that they needed, then they continued to perfect themselves using that one style. For better or worse, they would more often fight against other styles, rather then join together to learn someone elses methods. The styles that survived were obviously the better ones; Martial Arts Darwinism. So, excuse my ramble, but the notion that Anciong learned a whole bunch of different stuff, like remy, to create his style only really fits in with todays worldview. This doesn't mean that was what really happened.

So it looks like Anciong's training was mostly Saavadre, as well as his own innovation. If I hear differently, I'll post! :asian:
 

Datu Tim Hartman

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Let's not turn this into a Ted vs. Bobby war. If you have a problem with what we are saying or with us, that is one thing, but if you are just trying to start something because you are pissed about some personal history then that is another. We are talking about the facts, and that is all. If your sources aren't as accurate as someone else's, don't get upset about it. There was a mild problem in the past because Bobby's claims were inaccurate. Since then he has amended his statements. The Buot training group has no problem with the Taboada training group. I have no problems with them nor am I looking for any problems.
 

Tgace

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Geez guys take it easy. From what Ive read here, Tim K. just said he heard a rumor from some third source and was wondering if anybody here heard the same thing. Unless there was something that happened offline I dont understand where this confrontational attitude is coming from.

Granted Im not privy to the history between the groups here other than through 3rd party stories (which are always taken with a grain of salt by me). But im confused by the tone....
 

loki09789

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This statement is based on my recollections of stories while sitting with GM Bobby at dinners during his visits here in Bflo.

From what I understand/remember Bobby's first Bk instructor was Villez but eventually he did get face time with GGM Bacon. My take on his explanation was that these other Grand Masters under Bacon would send up students to work with Bacon after a certain point in training. Sort of a Masters degree program within the art. This may have been the equivelant of an MA instructor's students working with GM Remy Presas at seminars; it is time with the system head. No one would discredit that time from anyone here. I could be wrong, but that is what I remember.

I think that anyone working with Ted Buot is probably very lucky to have the experience, but Rich Parsons has said before and I agree with it Ted may know much, but not all. There may be pieces of the history or events that Mr. Buot just wasn't part of, that were still significant events. Also, FMA is full of in fighting and friction (not that we know about that here), so there may be things that each of these instructors just don't share with us, just like parents don't tell their children about everything that they did as kids, or all the dirty laundry in the family history...

I don't know how this got to be so hostile a discussion, and I don't feel that I am talking out of my A*S. I am working from my best recollections as well as current contact with my Bk sources of Bobby and personal research via internet sites about and by various Bk artists from a variety of Bk variances. I am not accusing anyone of lying or being wrong. I recognize that together we might be able to piece together a complete picture from our diverse contacts. That may take some clarification of our own and other peoples contributions.

Case in point: I went back and read the post where Rich C did use the term Taboada Balintawak that Rich P picked up on and continued to use. I think for both Rich's (that is so weird to write) the term simply was a way of distinguishing between Mr. Buots (Manong?If that is it, what does it mean?) stuff and GM Bobby's stuff. I didn't see any disrespect in that reference myself, just an attempt at short handing for speed and simplicity. Rich P has graciously changed his terminology to avoid any disrespect. I think these mature, professional dialogues are the way to go. Assumptions only lead to problems.

The last time I talked to GM Bobby, he said he felt like he had a responsiblity to help and support Remy's MA people out of respect of Remy's memory. I think that is a good example to follow.


Basically, we don't have to like each other personally, but we do have to get along as FMA family members. Maybe it's the former Marine in me, but I would like to think that no matter how much we might disagree internally, we would pull together for the sake of the FMA family (Espirit de Corps). Just remember, fight all we want but we still have to be willing to drive each other to the hospital when it is done :)

Paul Martin
 
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Emptyglass

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Originally posted by Tgace
Geez guys take it easy. From what Ive read here, Tim K. just said he heard a rumor from some third source and was wondering if anybody here heard the same thing. Unless there was something that happened offline I dont understand where this confrontational attitude is coming from.

I'm wondering the same here. Nothing going on offline or online for that matter with me. I've never seen Manong Buot's Balintiwak performed on video or in person, so I can't comment on it. Nor will I attempt to draw an opinion of it until I do so.

I have seen GM Bobby Taboada's Balintawak Eskrima Cuentada up close and personal and it is powerful, effective and well worth anyone's time and interest in my opinion.

I don't think anyone has said anything about either <U>art</U> that could really be thought of as disrespectful on purpose. So why anyone should feel they are having a problem or that there is consternation between the 2 arts is baffling to me.

I do think that perhaps some of the practicioners have problems with each other on a personal level, that is they really just don't like each other or their opinions for one reason or another. However, that has nothing to do with the validity of either style.

And that's just fine. No one says we all have to like each other. Just that we have to follow the forum rules as posted if we wish to continue to post here.

Thanks,

Rich Curren
 
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Emptyglass

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Originally posted by Renegade

I don't know why everyone thinks they're an expert on Balintawak now.

I don't think anyone involved in this discussion so far has or really can claim to be an expert on Balintawak's history or practice (perhaps with the exception of Rocky Paswik who has probably been practicing Balintawak the longest by far of everyone I've seen make a post on this thread that I know of - some mysterious people still lie unknown behind their usernames which is their perogative). No one who ever met GGM Bacon is posting here right? So everyone is really just getting their information second or third hand from other people.

That doesn't mean that none of it is true (and resources such as Manong Buot and GM Bobby Taboada are the best sources of information we have now that GGM Bacon is gone), but if you ask three witnesses with three different points of view about a car crash, each one will have a different story and explanation about exactly what happened. Unless you were privy to events in person, you really have to keep an open mind about things as in this case more than one person can be telling the absolute truth depending on their point of view and the time/circumstances in which they witnessed events (whoah, a Ben Kenobi moment).

This being said, we're all entitled to speak or voice our opinions and speculations here in this forum freely, correct? Regardless of whether we are right, wrong or indifferent. Free speech (within the limitations of the Forum rules) is still in effect here, right? If someone doesn't like what's being said, they have a right to take issue with it as well. Hence the beauty and drama of the internet chat room/forum rolls on in unceasing motion. :p

Personally I don't feel the need for anyone's approval to say something here and I think that's the way it should be.

Thanks,

Rich Curren
 

Rich Parsons

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Originally posted by Emptyglass
I don't think anyone involved in this discussion so far has or really can claim to be an expert on Balintawak's history or practice (perhaps with the exception of Rocky Paswik who has probably been practicing Balintawak the longest by far of everyone I've seen make a post on this thread that I know of - some mysterious people still lie unknown behind their usernames which is their perogative). No one who ever met GGM Bacon is posting here right? So everyone is really just getting their information second or third hand from other people.

That doesn't mean that none of it is true (and resources such as Manong Buot and GM Bobby Taboada are the best sources of information we have now that GGM Bacon is gone), but if you ask three witnesses with three different points of view about a car crash, each one will have a different story and explanation about exactly what happened. Unless you were privy to events in person, you really have to keep an open mind about things as in this case more than one person can be telling the absolute truth depending on their point of view and the time/circumstances in which they witnessed events (whoah, a Ben Kenobi moment).

This being said, we're all entitled to speak or voice our opinions and speculations here in this forum freely, correct? Regardless of whether we are right, wrong or indifferent. Free speech (within the limitations of the Forum rules) is still in effect here, right? If someone doesn't like what's being said, they have a right to take issue with it as well. Hence the beauty and drama of the internet chat room/forum rolls on in unceasing motion. :p

Personally I don't feel the need for anyone's approval to say something here and I think that's the way it should be.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

Rich C. very nicely put.

This is what I have been trynig to say elsewhere sometimes. That the presentation of Balintawak Cuentada Eskrima Arnis is not exactly the same as Balintawak taught by GM Buot.

As Master Rocky and others have stated, this does not take aay from either art.

The point I have been trying to make and you make here also, is tht people will see things differntly.

When some admits openingly that they have added to an art (* No disrespect *) then it cannot be the same unless what was added is zero or a null set. As Boxing and Sinawalis, and Abiniko and , ...., . whatever else has been added is not a null set or have zero worth, they have changed it from the starting point. Therefore there are differences.

As to being entitled to the right of free speech, is not quite correct. This is a private board, owned by a company. That company has allowed the general populace to sign up and post freely their opinions as long as they follow the rules. The difference is subtle, yet very important. The U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights do not protect anyone here. Yet, I and the other Moderators, have tried to allow people to express their opinions.

So, Rich C and everyone else continue to post within the rules and enjoy.

With Respect
:asian:
 
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