MMA is the most traditional martial art

[gerardfoy50]

told my tkd 5th Dan mate that my son was doing MMA, was told that’s not a proper martial art. Always hearing this from traditional martial artist. Tkd is from the 50s so can judo say they are not traditional cause judos from the 1880s, MMA was in the Olympic Games 3000 years ago but for some reason they oldest martial art in the world gets constantly looked down on by arts that are babies by comparison. Really don’t know why

 

[Alan0354]

jealousy, stubborn. MMA whooped their butts. MMA combines ONLY the effective moves from all style, there is no PRIDE to get in the way. MMA uses a lot of TKD kicks because they are good.

Also the philosophy of MMA is different, other older styles believe in follow and honor the tradition. They go out of their way to make whatever taught to try to work against new technique instead of learning from the new technique that proven effective. MMA just learn from all styles. Look at MMA, they use the only effective move from Wing Chung, the front leg step kick to the knee. It's very effective. They take the elbow and knee from Muy Thai. Then they take the ground game from BJJ, Wrestling...... Whatever works, they take. I can watch some UFC fights and can tell around what year it's taped because you can see the evolution. Even those from the early UFC will get their butts kicked in the Octagon today.

My background is TKD, where my instructor was way ahead of his time in the 80s. We did away with all the traditional TKD stance, punchings, forms. We practice kick-boxing(TKD kicks with boxing hands) which was quite new back in the 80s following Bruce Lee. He even invited a jujitsu instructor to teach the class once a while.

I never hesitate to say I am chopped meat against MMA because my style is OLD and won't stand up to MMA. But surprisingly, not only TMA people never accept MMA 30 years after MMA whooped their butt, a lot of them still never give Bruce Lee the due recognition of his contribution 50 years after he died.

 

[Cynik75]

TMA is just a wrong term. Correst one should be NFCTMMAGTTTM (non-full contact traing methodology MA glued to tradition to much).

 

[skribs]

Always hearing this from traditional martial artist.

I hear this 1000x more in the other direction, that TMA aren't realistic enough and MMA (or the common component arts of MMA) are the only arts worth taking. A perfect example is the first two responses in this thread. This is a classic case of "Remove the plank from your own eye before removing the splinter from someone else's."

The whole argument is stupid. Every art has things that are unrealistic about it, or something that they miss by it being out-of-scope of their training. Every art (with very few fringe exceptions like no-touch) has something to offer if you're willing to listen.

If you go in with the attitude that it's worthless to train another art because yours is the one true way, and their deviations make them lesser, then you're going to miss out. If you go in recognizing that nobody is perfect, but everyone at least has something to offer, then you can have much more meaningful discussions.

It doesn't mean you have to crosstrain every art or agree with everything the art does. But it does make more sense to try and learn than to try and prove your superiority.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The whole argument is stupid.

Both arguments (one in OP and the one you mention) are stupid. Barring some extreme cases, one martial art is not more of a martial art than another one, they're just both martial arts. It's like trying to claim football is more of a sport than soccer-they're just both sports.

There may be one that's better for someone's specific purposes than another, but that has nothing to do with their statuses as martial arts.

 

[skribs]

Both arguments (one in OP and the one you mention) are stupid.

That's what I meant. The whole "my art is good, your art sucks" is stupid, no matter which art is saying it.

There's also a difference between "I have no interest in X" and "X is stupid". For example, a boxer who does not do anything but boxing because he really likes boxing is different than a boxer who does not do anything but boxing because "kicks are stupid".

 

[frank raud]

told my tkd 5th Dan mate that my son was doing MMA, was told that’s not a proper martial art. Always hearing this from traditional martial artist. Tkd is from the 50s so can judo say they are not traditional cause judos from the 1880s, MMA was in the Olympic Games 3000 years ago but for some reason they oldest martial art in the world gets constantly looked down on by arts that are babies by comparison. Really don’t know why

No. Just no. On several levels. For an art to be traditional, it must be passed on from generation to generation. A 3000 year (your numbers ) gap is not a tradition, it is at best a recreation. Both judo and TKD are evolutions/developments of existing martial arts that the founders trained in (ju jutsu for Kano's judo and Japanese Karate (primarily Shotokan) for TKD)..where is the lineage from ancient Greece to 1993? No lineage, no tradition.

Definition of TRADITION

an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (such as a religious practice or a social custom); a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

1
a
: an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (such as a religious practice or a social custom)
b
: a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable
… the bulk of traditions attributed to the Prophet … J. L. Esposito
2
: the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3
: cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4
: characteristic manner, method, or style
in the best liberal tradition

 

[Steve]

No. Just no. On several levels. For an art to be traditional, it must be passed on from generation to generation. A 3000 year (your numbers ) gap is not a tradition, it is at best a recreation. Both judo and TKD are evolutions/developments of existing martial arts that the founders trained in (ju jutsu for Kano's judo and Japanese Karate (primarily Shotokan) for TKD)..where is the lineage from ancient Greece to 1993? No lineage, no tradition.

Definition of TRADITION

an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (such as a religious practice or a social custom); a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

1
a
: an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (such as a religious practice or a social custom)
b
: a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable
… the bulk of traditions attributed to the Prophet … J. L. Esposito
2
: the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3
: cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4
: characteristic manner, method, or style
in the best liberal tradition

How many generations are we talking? What's the magic number? Because even if we confine the definition of MMA to the modern, unified ruleset era, we're in about multiple generations of MMA athletes.

 

[frank raud]

How many generations are we talking? What's the magic number? Because even if we confine the definition of MMA to the modern, unified ruleset era, we're in about multiple generations of MMA athletes.

And how many years between the original Olympics and modern MMA?

 

[Steve]

And how many years between the original Olympics and modern MMA?

I'm not suggesting a continue lineage between the ancient greeks and Randy Couture. You said the key to be traditional is a passing along of the style across generations. I'm just wondering what that magic number is. Is it two generation? 10 generations? MMA has to be getting close, right?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'm not suggesting a continue lineage between the ancient greeks and Randy Couture. You said the key to be traditional is a passing along of the style across generations. I'm just wondering what that magic number is. Is it two generation? 10 generations? MMA has to be getting close, right?

How many generations are you considering MMA at? If we continue the first generation being the 90s, I'd say that we're currently in the 3rd generation.

 

[frank raud]

How many generations are we talking? What's the magic number? Because even if we confine the definition of MMA to the modern, unified ruleset era, we're in about multiple generations of MMA athletes.

Opie states that MMA is the oldest martial art because it was in the original Olympics. And then it dies out. An attempt to bring back/ recreate Pankration is done by Jim Arvantis in 1969. MMA comes into being in 1993 with the first UFC. What's the straight line connection between MMA and ancient Greek Pankration? There is not one. Has there been generations of MMA as it evolves? Yes. But that is not relevant to Opie's statement or mine.

 

[Steve]

Opie states that MMA is the oldest martial art because it was in the original Olympics. And then it dies out. An attempt to bring back/ recreate Pankration is done by Jim Arvantis in 1969. MMA comes into being in 1993 with the first UFC. What's the straight line connection between MMA and ancient Greek Pankration? There is not one. Has there been generations of MMA as it evolves? Yes. But that is not relevant to Opie's statement or mine.

I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm genuinely interested in your opinion on the current state of MMA. Let's agree that it is not the oldest TMA as the OP states. Your point is spot on and well made. But does it meet your definition of TMA now? Is it getting there?

What is traditional is a funny question that pops up around here all the time. I'm always interested in how different people view the term. You proposed a very specific definition... just wondering how that actually works in practice.

 

[Xue Sheng]

First MMA is a martial art....

Second, the original fighting arts in the original olympics in the Mid 600BC were Wrestling, Boxing and Pankration. Pankration was a mixture of wrestling and boxing

Pankration​

"This was a primitive form of martial art combining wrestling and boxing, and was considered to be one of the toughest sports. Greeks believed that it was founded by Theseus when he defeated the fierce Minotaur in the labyrinth."

Not exactly the same as MMA today, but similar as it mixes fighting styles, but to actually be considered "Traditional" there has to be a line of association.... I don't see it with MMA and Pankration.... but them I do not see JKD as MMA as it is today, but that is only my opinion

But historians do claim there is a direct line of association in Shuaijiao to Jiao Di. Jiao Di being being practiced about 6000 years ago. And I have heard Shuaijiao referred to as traditional and also sport.....

 

[Steve]

First MMA is a martial art....

Second, the original fighting arts in the original olympics in the Mid 600BC were Wrestling, Boxing and Pankration. Pankration was a mixture of wrestling and boxing

Pankration​

"This was a primitive form of martial art combining wrestling and boxing, and was considered to be one of the toughest sports. Greeks believed that it was founded by Theseus when he defeated the fierce Minotaur in the labyrinth."

Not exactly the same as MMA today, but similar as it mixes fighting styles, but to actually be considered "Traditional" there has to be a line of association.... I don't see it with MMA and Pankration.... but them I do not see JKD as MMA as it is today, but that is only my opinion

But historians do claim there is a direct line of association in Shuaijiao to Jiao Di. Jiao Di being being practiced about 6000 years ago. And I have heard Shuaijiao referred to as traditional and also sport.....

But does it work... on the streets?

 

[Oily Dragon]

Ok. How about this.

If you have an old photo, usually black and white, of your styles founder either in your school or your home, you study a "traditional" art. And that's that. Even BJJ is traditional.

I have a badass porcelain statue of General "Grandpa" Guan Yu (smaller scale than below). I've had people ask "who the hell is that??", to which I always reply "a godfather of Kung Fu".

I also do MMA stuff.

Am I TMA or MMA? Maybe I'm just me MA.

 

[gerardfoy50]

Opie states that MMA is the oldest martial art because it was in the original Olympics. And then it dies out. An attempt to bring back/ recreate Pankration is done by Jim Arvantis in 1969. MMA comes into being in 1993 with the first UFC. What's the straight line connection between MMA and ancient Greek Pankration? There is not one. Has there been generations of MMA as it evolves? Yes. But that is not relevant to Opie's statement or mine.

But wrestling and boxing continued throughout history, the Romans wrestled boxing never went away, you have to remember these times involved the fall of the Roman world, Viking invasions etc, how would a tkd instucters cope during this time running classe, but these styles have been maintained in some form or another throughout history. That deserves an equal footing as tkd which is younger than my dad

 

[frank raud]

But wrestling and boxing continued throughout history, the Romans wrestled boxing never went away, you have to remember these times involved the fall of the Roman world, Viking invasions etc, how would a tkd instucters cope during this time running classe, but these styles have been maintained in some form or another throughout history. That deserves an equal footing as tkd which is younger than my dad

Boxing and wrestling were also separate events at the time of the original Olympics. "Western" boxing also has a huge gap as an organized sport between the original Greek and the era of modern pugilism( started from Daniel Mendoza). All of which still doesn't make a connection between ancient Pankration and modern MMA.

 

[gerardfoy50]

Boxing and wrestling were also separate events at the time of the original Olympics. "Western" boxing also has a huge gap as an organized sport between the original Greek and the era of modern pugilism( started from Daniel Mendoza). All of which still doesn't make a connection between ancient Pankration and modern MMA.

But pankration was mma

 

[frank raud]

But pankration was mma

Eh, maybe. Under a completely different ruleset. AND still no connection to modern MMA. Spiritual ancestor? Yes.