Mixed age group classes needs to stop

[GojuTommy]

I know a lot of schools have classes that are open to all students from their minimum age up to any aged adult who wants to join.

I was part of one of those dojos, and it took Cobra Kai and Stingray for me to really see how messed up it is to have children and adults in the same class.

1. Different age groups have different requirements for what they need to learn effectively. This means if you have a 5 yr old and a 15 yr old in the same class one or neither is not getting an effective education in the subject. Same for a 15 and a 30 yr old in the same class.

2. It’s simply inappropriate for children to be in close social interactions with adults who are complete strangers. On the mild side it results in children believing they’re more adult than they are causing them to make other decisions they aren’t mentally equipped to make yet. On the other end the most horrific end, a child is physically taken advantage of by a predatory adult.

Family classes where parents are attending the same classes as their kids I think is fine as the parents most likely are there just to spend time with their kids rather than actually trying to learn the martial art themselves, and the parents are able to watch over their kids directly.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I know a lot of schools have classes that are open to all students from their minimum age up to any aged adult who wants to join.

I was part of one of those dojos, and it took Cobra Kai and Stingray for me to really see how messed up it is to have children and adults in the same class.

1. Different age groups have different requirements for what they need to learn effectively. This means if you have a 5 yr old and a 15 yr old in the same class one or neither is not getting an effective education in the subject. Same for a 15 and a 30 yr old in the same class.

2. It’s simply inappropriate for children to be in close social interactions with adults who are complete strangers. On the mild side it results in children believing they’re more adult than they are causing them to make other decisions they aren’t mentally equipped to make yet. On the other end the most horrific end, a child is physically taken advantage of by a predatory adult.

Family classes where parents are attending the same classes as their kids I think is fine as the parents most likely are there just to spend time with their kids rather than actually trying to learn the martial art themselves, and the parents are able to watch over their kids directly.

I've spent time in exactly one TKD dojang and it had a whole gallery just for the parents to observe class. It was constantly full and I realized that as a big drawing factor for parents. If I had kids I'd feel welcome there.

Even if you are dropping your kid off because you've got RL stuff to do, you know other parents are watching it all.

So to me that's decent measure of a school. Who is allowed to watch? Some places are very private and sketchy with "training"...even the Boy Scouts have this problem.

 

[GojuTommy]

I've spent time in exactly one TKD dojang and it had a whole gallery just for the parents to observe class. It was constantly full and I realized that you as a big drawing factor for parents.

Even if you are dropping your kid off because you've got RL stuff to do, you know other parents are watching it all.

So to me that's decent measure of a school. Who is allowed to watch? Some places are very private and sketchy with "training"...even the Boy Scouts have this problem.

Watching from a lobby, or something isn’t the same as being a part of the class and having the adults work together. Which it’s much more likely to have enough adults to all be partners in a family class than a mixed age group.

Parents could say “oh what were you and that man talking about while doing that drill?” And the teen being a teen could very well lie, “oh just getting some pointers” and before you know it they’re dating and when the parent thinks their kid is with friends, they’re with a 35 year old creep who can’t get a date with someone even close to their age.

I don’t think there’s a single argument that can justify taking such a risk.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Watching from a lobby, or something isn’t the same as being a part of the class and having the adults work together. Which it’s much more likely to have enough adults to all be partners in a family class than a mixed age group.

Parents could say “oh what were you and that man talking about while doing that drill?” And the teen being a teen could very well lie, “oh just getting some pointers” and before you know it they’re dating and when the parent thinks their kid is with friends, they’re with a 35 year old creep who can’t get a date with someone even close to their age.

I don’t think there’s a single argument that can justify taking such a risk.

I doubt many parents of kids of consensual age whether it's 16 or 19 even observe classes. That age is off to the races.

In other words I don't think that sort of thing is a martial arts school phenom. It happens right in high school. After school programs, and down the list somewhere are after school MA classes. At a certain point the parents aren't taking a risk, they literally have no control.

 

[GojuTommy]

I doubt many parents of kids of consensual age whether it's 16 or 19 even observe classes. That age is off to the races.

In other words I don't think that sort of thing is a martial arts school phenom. It happens right in high school. After school programs, and down the list somewhere are after school MA classes. At a certain point the parents aren't taking a risk, they literally have no control.

You’re right parents don’t have control.
The school owner has that control though, and the responsibility not to endanger anyone in any form if they can avoid it.

 

[Tez3]

I don't know anywhere that has children training with adults in any style.

The worse thing about children is the chagrin when you realise they are better than you (that is 99.9% a joke)

Parents could say “oh what were you and that man talking about while doing that drill?” And the teen being a teen could very well lie, “oh just getting some pointers” and before you know it they’re dating and when the parent thinks their kid is with friends, they’re with a 35 year old creep who can’t get a date with someone even close to their age.

Is there a reason you are so focused on this idea? It's quite worrying actually that you go down to this rather than injuries, lack of concentration in class, disruption etc. that can come from having children in a class. This is twice you've brought it up on this thread, once in another.

 

[GojuTommy]

I don't know anywhere that has children training with adults in any style.

The worse thing about children is the chagrin when you realise they are better than you (that is 99.9% a joke)


Is there a reason you are so focused on this idea? It's quite worrying actually that you go down to this rather than injuries, lack of concentration in class, disruption etc. that can come from having children in a class. This is twice you've brought it up on this thread, once in another.

Because outside of the internet there are few ways for random strangers to get into contact with children, and most injuries will be forgotten about a couple of weeks after the injury is incurred.

Lack of concentration and disruption is an issue that will still exist in children only classes and a good instructor won’t have much issue mitigating those issues.

And there have been a frighteningly high number of examples of people revealing that martial arts schools are where an under aged victim met their predator.

 

[Tez3]

Because outside of the internet there are few ways for random strangers to get into contact with children, and most injuries will be forgotten about a couple of weeks after the injury is incurred.

Lack of concentration and disruption is an issue that will still exist in children only classes and a good instructor won’t have much issue mitigating those issues.

And there have been a frighteningly high number of examples of people revealing that martial arts schools are where an under aged victim met their predator.

I've been teaching martial arts for a very long time, children and adults. I've never found the problems you envisage, not do we have a high rate of predating on children. This is because we don't have mixed children's and adults classes, they don't work well for other reasons.

A 17 year old is not a child, I've taught soldiers that age, it's over the age of consent as well here. To make it seem that there is something improper in a 17 year old teaching an older person in a class situation is a huge reach. To think it's improper is odd.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Family classes where parents are attending the same classes as their kids I think is fine as the parents most likely are there just to spend time with their kids rather than actually trying to learn the martial art themselves, and the parents are able to watch over their kids directly.

This was the only way we trained kids with adults. There's a lot of positive things that come from this type of mixture. Kids and adults behaved better. The activity allowed the kids to bond with the parents. It gives them something in common a family activity. It was also the best deal for pricing in our school.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I don't know anywhere that has children training with adults in any style.

Depending on what you consider a kid, in the states a lot of schools mix the teen/adult classes together due to a lack of adults interested. This means that 13 year olds are training with 40 year olds.

 

[Tez3]

Depending on what you consider a kid, in the states a lot of schools mix the teen/adult classes together due to a lack of adults interested. This means that 13 year olds are training with 40 year olds.

I don't see a problem with that. It doesn't hurt adults to train with higher ranks younger than them either.

 

[JowGaWolf]

On the mild side it results in children believing they’re more adult than they are causing them to make other decisions they aren’t mentally equipped to make yet. On the other end the most horrific end, a child is physically taken advantage of by a predatory adult.

I'm not sure about this. It's usually someone on staff that takes advantage of a child. I think this would be more difficult with more adults around. My experience has been that having more adults makes it difficult avoid watchful eyes.

 

[GojuTommy]

I've been teaching martial arts for a very long time, children and adults. I've never found the problems you envisage, not do we have a high rate of predating on children. This is because we don't have mixed children's and adults classes, they don't work well for other reasons.

A 17 year old is not a child, I've taught soldiers that age, it's over the age of consent as well here. To make it seem that there is something improper in a 17 year old teaching an older person in a class situation is a huge reach. To think it's improper is odd.

17 is a child. Being a soldier doesn’t make someone an adult. There are 12 year old soldiers all over the world, they certainly aren’t adults.
Personally I consider 24 yr olds to be children still.
However for legal reasons neither of our opinions makes a difference.

 

[GojuTommy]

I don't see a problem with that. It doesn't hurt adults to train with higher ranks younger than them either.

So you think a 14 year old can provide sufficient resistance to a grown adult to make working together on testing techniques beneficial for the adult?

 

[GojuTommy]

I'm not sure about this. It's usually someone on staff that takes advantage of a child. I think this would be more difficult with more adults around. My experience has been that having more adults makes it difficult avoid watchful eyes.

It most certainly is the most prevalent, often the head instructor/owner as well, but it’s hard to know, until it comes out.

An adult sets their sights on a kid, and just knowing their name gives them a whole new opportunity to connect online and being someone they do actually know from the real world means they’re less likely to be skeptical of the person’s motivations.

 

[Tez3]

So you think a 14 year old can provide sufficient resistance to a grown adult to make working together on testing techniques beneficial for the adult?

That's not the question is it though, the 14 year old can be a 6ft rugby player, the 40 year old 5ft and 6st wet through
A good instructor will pair people up according to their strengths, no class of whatever age, not even an MMA class are going to match exactly.

 

[GojuTommy]

That's not the question is it though, the 14 year old can be a 6ft rugby player, the 40 year old 5ft and 6st wet through
A good instructor will pair people up according to their strengths, no class of whatever age, not even an MMA class are going to match exactly.

Sure but if there’s 3 adults and 15 kids there’s an adult getting paired with an adult, and it’s unlikely the child is going a baby hulk.
The average 14 yr old is going to be much smaller than the average adult, but sure make up whatever unlikely scenario you have to, to try and justify 14 and 40 year olds in the same classes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So you think a 14 year old can provide sufficient resistance to a grown adult to make working together on testing techniques beneficial for the adult?

This is a pairing issue. Simply switch partners so that the adult can do the same drill with another adult. Most adults don't mind going light for someone weaker or younger. If the adult is the weaker one, then the teen does the same for that adult.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A good instructor will pair people up according to their strengths

I did this as well. This allow some of the teens to keep growing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sure but if there’s 3 adults and 15 kids there’s an adult getting paired with an adult, and it’s unlikely the child is going a baby hulk.
The average 14 yr old is going to be much smaller than the average adult, but sure make up whatever unlikely scenario you have to, to try and justify 14 and 40 year olds in the same classes.

It's not impossible you just need to have some give and take with a little bit of "community spirit."