Measuring Racism in America

[Flatlander]

color-coding human beings is racist

thanks to forced busing, the Boston Public Schools are 70-80% 'black & hispanic'

Patrick, here is a quick lesson in providing references, no charge.

From www.dictionary.com :

con·tra·dic·tion ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (k

n

tr

-d

k

sh

n)
n.

1. 1. <LI type=a>The act of contradicting.
   2. The state of being contradicted.
2. A denial.
3. Inconsistency; discrepancy.
4. Something that contains contradictory elements.

I was using the word contradiction in definition #3. Your above quotes become a contradiction when you answer this question:


Are you a racist, Patrick?

See, if you answer "no", which I am sure you will, if you answer at all, then the contradiction in your statements becomes quite apparent.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Patrick, here is a quick lesson in providing references, no charge.

From www.dictionary.com :

con·tra·dic·tion ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (k

n

tr

-d

k

sh

n)
n.

1. 1. <LI type=a>The act of contradicting.
   2. The state of being contradicted.
2. A denial.
3. Inconsistency; discrepancy.
4. Something that contains contradictory elements.

I was using the word contradiction in definition #3. Your above quotes become a contradiction when you answer this question:



Are you a racist, Patrick?

See, if you answer "no", which I am sure you will, if you answer at all, then the contradiction in your statements becomes quite apparent.

1. You still haven't pointed out any contradiction.

2. No, since you failed to point out a contradiction, and failed to learn what is a 'sentence fragment'; I am not now nor have ever been a racist.

3. Are you a fascist Flatlander?

 

[Flatlander]

1. You still haven't pointed out any contradiction.

2. No, since you failed to point out a contradiction, and failed to learn what is a 'sentence fragment'; I am not now nor have ever been a racist.

3. Are you a fascist Flatlander?

1. Get your head out of the sand.
2. Never said you were. Only that you were contradictory. Interestingly, you have not adressed any of the other points.
3. Nope. I'm a Canadian. How 'bout you?

 

[Patrick Skerry]

1. Get your head out of the sand.

This is a serious question, you have not pointed out any contradiction, you did provide a dictionary definition which did not fit anything in my post.

Where is the contradiction in my post? (Also, you still need to look up 'sentence fragment').

 

[Makalakumu]

3. Are you a fascist Flatlander?

Oh, maybe I can help with this one...

The 14 Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
by Dr. Lawrence Britt

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism -
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights -
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause -
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military -
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism -
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homo-sexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media -
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security -
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined -
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected -
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed -
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts -
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment -
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption -
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections -
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Flatlander, does this sound like you or anyone you might know...not that I mean to hijack this thread by anymeans.

 

[Flatlander]

That was an excellent example of how to provide a source.

 

[Flatlander]

If you were to measure racism in America, what criteria would you examine? What statistics would you use to show that racism is still occuring? I am asking this because it seems as if the right and left trade anecdotal stories to back up claims for and against this concept. I would like to see what the data actually says...

upnorthkyosa

Anyone remember this? It is the topical post for this thread. Does anybody have anything to add to the topic?

 

[Seig]

Jews, are religions, not races, so it is Racist to refer to a religion as an ethnic group.

Not true, Jews are a race. We lost our minority status in the last 15 years. If you look at the current Affirmative Action sheets, all peoples of "Middle Eastern or European descent" are now classified as "Caucasian" or "White".

 

[Seig]

From here, affirmative action is defined as:

Affirmative action is a path to attain the harmony of universal equality that most would agree is necessary in order to level the societal playing field. It is not an end, it is a means to an end. Of course, there will be the short sighted few who see the personal inconveniences, and are not prepared to make a sacrifice for betterment of our society's future. This is a natural and predictable response from people who are experiencing a lessening of their historical position of relative priviledge. That is, however, the whole point. Nobody ever said that this would be an easy or non-disruptory path. That is because it is about the fundamental change of ingrained selfish beliefs. Essentially, it's a battle against protectionism.

It's unfortunate that the struggle to change the status quo manifests itself as what appears to be a furtherance of predjudicial policy, but it is a necessary evil. Only when the norm becomes an equal representation of people of all different ethnicity, and remains that way for generations, will the ideals that so many have suffered for, be realized. Until then, people will continue to complain when things don't go their way, and blame it on some sort of racist or predjudicial agenda. But those of us who choose to see the forest will recognise this as finger pointing and denial of responsibility, as a reluctance to let go of the unbalanced priviledges that have served as the elevator of mediocrity for generations.

Dan,
Please, until you have been the victim of Affirmative Action, do not tell us it is a good thing.

 

[Flatlander]

Dan,
Please, until you have been the victim of Affirmative Action, do not tell us it is a good thing.

Actually, I have, though certainly not in any extreme sense. My applications for government jobs have been passed up numerous times. I have been notified that "as I was not a member of a visible minority, my application would not be considered."

However, on the grand scale, I understand why it is this way. It limits me personally, but I'm not entirely unemployable in some other capacity.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

I just have one question, which will hopefully add something to the topic. I know that it may be practically impossible, but as far as fairness is concerned, what about racially blind applications? Rather than attempting to keep up a certain balance of racial membership, would there be problems with a system that makes sure that racial biases can't be used in the application process?

 

[Flatlander]

I just have one question, which will hopefully add something to the topic. I know that it may be practically impossible, but as far as fairness is concerned, what about racially blind applications? Rather than attempting to keep up a certain balance of racial membership, would there be problems with a system that makes sure that racial biases can't be used in the application process?

Well, the way I can see that turning out, is that first, we need to assume that Company A currently has an employee demographic that does not reflect the area demographic. Assuming that all new hires were the best candidate, they ought to reflect the area demographic, but because the employee demographic wasn't balanced in the first place, it would take quite a while before the company demographic fell in line.
This scenario also assumes that all area residents have equal access to whatever education or training is necessary as a prerequisite for working at Company A.

 

[TonyM.]

It's easy to measure racism in America. How many CEOs are anything but white males. How many of those have you met that are dumber than a bag full of hammers.
Affirmative action is stupid. I didn't get a permanent government contract job (I did get hired as a temp with no benefits.) even though I could have registered as a minority (Native American) because the person leaving the job was Hispanic and at the time had to be replaced by another hispanic. And Lord knows there were plenty of Hispanics in rural Maryland in 1974.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I should very much like to see specific, detailed evidence of having been "hurt by affirmative action," which--kinda like busing--is not really anybody's idea of a great solution to an ongoing problem.

Not hearsay, not, "this is what must have happened," not, "I was told that...," I mean specific, detailed evidence. A memo, letter, quoted remarks from the person who did the hiring/promotion, statistics, etc., will do. If you're going to claim that somebody less-qualified got a job or a promotion, you should supply a detailed resume for both the "victim," and the, "less-qualified," candidate.

I should also very much be interested in the company, school, firm, etc., published policy on affirmative action. I repeat--PUBLISHED policy, not hearsay.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened. I'm saying that I hear this from white boys like myself a lot, and I'd like to see some actual proof for a change.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

1. You still haven't pointed out any contradiction.

2. No, since you failed to point out a contradiction, and failed to learn what is a 'sentence fragment'; I am not now nor have ever been a racist.

3. Are you a fascist Flatlander?

Ah, "Patrick", I see it is, again, hard for you to admit someone has you in a corner. Instead of politely admitting you'd contradicted yourself, you attack the other person out of hand.

You did contradict yourself. You cautioned me for being racist by referring to people as "white", I believe, but then called other people "black". Is using terms like "black" and "white" racist, or is it not?

And so far your "terrorist racism" idea still is unsupported and sounds like ravaings to me. School bussings as terrorism? Please.

 

[Flatlander]

I should very much like to see specific, detailed evidence of having been "hurt by affirmative action," which--kinda like busing--is not really anybody's idea of a great solution to an ongoing problem.

Not hearsay, not, "this is what must have happened," not, "I was told that...," I mean specific, detailed evidence. A memo, letter, quoted remarks from the person who did the hiring/promotion, statistics, etc., will do. If you're going to claim that somebody less-qualified got a job or a promotion, you should supply a detailed resume for both the "victim," and the, "less-qualified," candidate.

I should also very much be interested in the company, school, firm, etc., published policy on affirmative action. I repeat--PUBLISHED policy, not hearsay.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened. I'm saying that I hear this from white boys like myself a lot, and I'd like to see some actual proof for a change.

Hi Robert,

The e-mail response that I personally received from a federal govenment human resources department has been deleted from my inbox, as it was approximately 18 months ago. However, if you care to read up on the Canadian Legislated Employment Equity Program, help yourself. Please bear in mind that in Canada, it is referred to as Employment Equity, rather than affirmative action, as the mandate is limited to specifically developing the current governmental workforce demographic to reflect that of the population.

Please allow me to reiterate that I do see value in the program, and do not generally begrudge the government for applying it. I was merely expressing that I had experienced 'affirmative action', in the Canadian format, personally.

Unfortunately, I have no other specific evidence that I may provide of that occurring. You may choose to disbelieve my claim, that's not really my concern. Just trying to contribute to the discussion.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Ah, "Patrick", I see it is, again, hard for you to admit someone has you in a corner. Instead of politely admitting you'd contradicted yourself, you attack the other person out of hand.

You did contradict yourself. You cautioned me for being racist by referring to people as "white", I believe, but then called other people "black". Is using terms like "black" and "white" racist, or is it not?

And so far your "terrorist racism" idea still is unsupported and sounds like ravaings to me. School bussings as terrorism? Please.

You have just won the award for the best sophisms and illogic on the internet!

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Not true, Jews are a race. We lost our minority status in the last 15 years. If you look at the current Affirmative Action sheets, all peoples of "Middle Eastern or European descent" are now classified as "Caucasian" or "White".

Since when is a belief system encoded on the human genome? Judaism is a religion, not a race. Also color coding human beings is racist, the federal bureaucracy color-coding human beings just proves it is institutionally racist, that all. But you need to consult with a biologist, geneticist, or physicial anthropologist regarding the classification of human beings and Roman Catholic is not a race, Protestant is not a race, Judaism is not a race, Islam is not a race, etc.....

 

[Feisty Mouse]

According to biologists/anthropolgists, "race" is a very tricky classification to get a hold of. Although people think they can easily classify someone as belonging to a certain race with visual inspection, attempts to do so genetically are much more tricky. There is more genetic variation within races than between them - i.e., we may be more "related" to someone of a different race than we are to someone of the same race.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

According to biologists/anthropolgists, "race" is a very tricky classification to get a hold of. Although people think they can easily classify someone as belonging to a certain race with visual inspection, attempts to do so genetically are much more tricky. There is more genetic variation within races than between them - i.e., we may be more "related" to someone of a different race than we are to someone of the same race.

You might be generalizing 'ethnic group' with race. According to my college biology, genetic, and physical anthropology textbooks, and as taught in class by those same subject professors in my college courses - humans are are all of one species, homo sapien, that are classified into three main races: Mongoloid, Negroid, and Causcazoid. Those three main racial phenotypes are subdivided into ethnic groups. The Han Chinese or the Lithuanian or the Hottentot or the Pygmy or the Rus or the Irish etc. etc. The variations in skin tone from the equator to the artic circle is called 'continuous variation', the darker nearer the equator and lighter nearer the artic circle, the Laplander having almost translucent skin and the Sudanese having almost ebony skin, as an evolutionary environmental adaptation. So are blue eyes, brown eyes, green eyes (my mother had green eyes), blonde hair, red hair, etc., these are ethnic characteristics rather than racial characteristics, as identified by scientists.

N.B.: Notice that Belief Systems do not enter the biological/genetic realm, it is sloppy thinking to believe that a religion is a race. Belief Systems fall into the realm of cultural anthropology or sociology, not biology. So Roman Catholicism or Judiaism are not races or ethnic groups.

I agree with this objective and impartial outlook on the study of humans. No human being is superior or inferior to another human being, it is a scientific impossibility (we are not talking about birth defects or the severely retarded, they occur statistically equal in all the racial groups).

So I always describe people with these objective and impartial terminologies to increase my accuracy and identify my objectivity. And if someone misunderstands, they need to get an edjumakashum (education). Thank you.