MCMAP

Brian R. VanCise

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Well for one thing there is a different mind set.

Here is the Mental Discipline quote from the manual:

"MENTAL DISCIPLINE
The Mental Discipline encompasses the study of the art of war to include professional military education (PME) and the professional reading program, Marine Corps Common Skills Training (MCCS), decision making training, the historical study of war, the tactics and techniques of expeditionary maneuver warfare, risk operational management, force protection, and a study of Marine Corps history, customs, courtesies and traditions. In order to advance in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program a Marine must meet specific PME requirements as well as show the tactical and technical proficiency required of a basic rifleman. Each Marine will participate in Martial Culture Studies that will enhance their understanding of being a warrior and part of a warrior society. These Martial Culture Studies will add to both the Mental and Character Disciplines.
As a warrior our profession is inherently dangerous. Each Marine will be educated from the beginning of his Marine Corps and martial arts training with the fundamental principle that safety is a key consideration in all that we do on or off duty. This includes not only individual safety measures but will comprise training leaders in the art of operational risk management and assessment.
The Mental Discipline will create a smarter Marine, capable of understanding and handling the complexity of modern warfare. It will create a Marine who is tactically and technically competent, and capable of decision making under any condition from combat to liberty. This training, beginning with the transformation of recruit training will be the foundation of the "strategic corporal" and the future leadership of our Corps."


Here is the Physical Discipline quote from the same manual:

"PHYSICAL DISCIPLINE
The sinew of what every Marine must be prepared to execute; to seek out, close with and destroy the enemy by fire and movement and repel their assault by fire and close combat. This is how we win the nation's battles and win the three-block war. The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program is a weapons based system beginning at assault fire, moving to the bayonet, edged weapons, weapons of opportunity and ending, potentially in unarmed combat; unarmed combat having a role across the spectrum of combat.
Assault Fire Techniques (advanced combat marksmanship techniques are the starting point from which bayonet training flows); this ties-in the battle proven Marine Corps marksmanship program with the Martial Arts Program, creating a synergy between the two. From assault firing the battle is joined with bayonet, edged weapons, weapons of opportunity, and finally unarmed combat.
A key element of the physical discipline is combative conditioning - a program that goes a level beyond our current physical fitness program. It combines the physical fitness dividends of combative arts training with those of traditional physical fitness, water survival training, and rough terrain skills training. It is designed to mitigate the human factors experienced during combat that have a physically debilitating effect on the human body, allow a Marine to fight in any terrain and under any climatic condition, and face the rigors of the dispersed battlefield encountered in modern combat."


You will notice in particular in the physical discipline portion a descending order from the Marine Marksmanship program to MCMAP so that there is a flow to Bayonet to edged weapons, weapons of opportunity and finally at the end unarmed combat. The training is geared towards and around weapons with empty hand as a last resort.
 

drop bear

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Well for one thing there is a different mind set.

Here is the Mental Discipline quote from the manual:

"MENTAL DISCIPLINE
The Mental Discipline encompasses the study of the art of war to include professional military education (PME) and the professional reading program, Marine Corps Common Skills Training (MCCS), decision making training, the historical study of war, the tactics and techniques of expeditionary maneuver warfare, risk operational management, force protection, and a study of Marine Corps history, customs, courtesies and traditions. In order to advance in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program a Marine must meet specific PME requirements as well as show the tactical and technical proficiency required of a basic rifleman. Each Marine will participate in Martial Culture Studies that will enhance their understanding of being a warrior and part of a warrior society. These Martial Culture Studies will add to both the Mental and Character Disciplines.
As a warrior our profession is inherently dangerous. Each Marine will be educated from the beginning of his Marine Corps and martial arts training with the fundamental principle that safety is a key consideration in all that we do on or off duty. This includes not only individual safety measures but will comprise training leaders in the art of operational risk management and assessment.
The Mental Discipline will create a smarter Marine, capable of understanding and handling the complexity of modern warfare. It will create a Marine who is tactically and technically competent, and capable of decision making under any condition from combat to liberty. This training, beginning with the transformation of recruit training will be the foundation of the "strategic corporal" and the future leadership of our Corps."


Here is the Physical Discipline quote from the same manual:

"PHYSICAL DISCIPLINE
The sinew of what every Marine must be prepared to execute; to seek out, close with and destroy the enemy by fire and movement and repel their assault by fire and close combat. This is how we win the nation's battles and win the three-block war. The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program is a weapons based system beginning at assault fire, moving to the bayonet, edged weapons, weapons of opportunity and ending, potentially in unarmed combat; unarmed combat having a role across the spectrum of combat.
Assault Fire Techniques (advanced combat marksmanship techniques are the starting point from which bayonet training flows); this ties-in the battle proven Marine Corps marksmanship program with the Martial Arts Program, creating a synergy between the two. From assault firing the battle is joined with bayonet, edged weapons, weapons of opportunity, and finally unarmed combat.
A key element of the physical discipline is combative conditioning - a program that goes a level beyond our current physical fitness program. It combines the physical fitness dividends of combative arts training with those of traditional physical fitness, water survival training, and rough terrain skills training. It is designed to mitigate the human factors experienced during combat that have a physically debilitating effect on the human body, allow a Marine to fight in any terrain and under any climatic condition, and face the rigors of the dispersed battlefield encountered in modern combat."


You will notice in particular in the physical discipline portion a descending order from the Marine Marksmanship program to MCMAP so that there is a flow to Bayonet to edged weapons, weapons of opportunity and finally at the end unarmed combat. The training is geared towards and around weapons with empty hand as a last resort.

Ok. So that is the lite portion of MMA lite. Abridged version of hand to hand because they also have tanks. More time for important skills like not getting lost and stuff.

Which is surprisingly enough the mind set MMA has towards martial arts. In that lets not learn 50 guard passes because at some point we have to learn punching.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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Well I agree with everything you said except the lite portion of MMA lite. MCMAP is not mma as if you read through the quotes you will quickly discover it is a weapons based system with a descending order from the Marine Corps Marksmanship program to MCMAP starting with bayonet training, edge weapon training, weapons of opportunity and then finally unarmed combat. They aren't training for MMA and their goals aren't designed around being in a cage. They have very different goals. Very different mindset because of this.
 

drop bear

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Well I agree with everything you said except the lite portion of MMA lite. MCMAP is not mma as if you read through the quotes you will quickly discover it is a weapons based system with a descending order from the Marine Corps Marksmanship program to MCMAP starting with bayonet training, edge weapon training, weapons of opportunity and then finally unarmed combat. They aren't training for MMA and their goals aren't designed around being in a cage. They have very different goals. Very different mindset because of this.

What is the difference in mindset? I mean I get the weapons first bit. But the mindset is a new one.

And if the mindset is different how does the traing reflect that?

Because I think I am seeing a lot of development of warrior mindset via sparring.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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Sparring develops a strong mental mindset. You and I are in total agreement on that. However, a Marine or soldiers mindset has to be geared towards completing the mission and dealing with their force continuum up to including killing their opponent if that is what the mission demands. I too believe that mma fighters that spar or anyone that spars for that matter will develop a strong mental mindset but most are not training to kill but instead to compete. However, I do believe sparring has a place in any professional warriors training such as military, law enforcement, etc.
 

Tez3

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I too believe that mma fighters that spar or anyone that spars for that matter will develop a strong mental mindset but most are not training to kill but instead to compete.

Unless like our students they are doing both. :D Most of ours say that training MMA ( or any martial art for that matter) is actually a relaxation for them rather than part of their military training. The fitness training isn't a strain or extra work because they do PT anyway, they like the banter and way martial arts people are, they don't have to 'behave' to fit in. Many civvies find the military 'different', they do appreciate them but they can be scary and the sense of humour differs a lot from civvies. Training and competing in any sport is fun and can take away worries for a while, that's why the Invicta Games and the like are so very important.
The higher ups like martial arts because for once their soldiers are not fighting randomly in pubs and clubs.
I'm sure it does have value for military training but the biggest part of it is the relaxation and sports aspect for the soldiers, which may be a bit hard for civvies to understand that sparring etc as that! I'm sure a medic could explain all about endorphins etc. I'm not much up on that stuff.
 

oftheherd1

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Haven't been keeping up on this thread, but I think on this side of the pond, MA are not as important to soldiers except for some elite special type units that are more likely to engage in close combat. That from an overall combat perspective. However, I think MA are an enhancement to any fighting force, from the fighting spirit and confidence they should be learning. Greater skill in close combat when necessary is an added value.
 

oftheherd1

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The people who usually say this are usually people who never served in the military and/or never trained to fight MMA. Because the Marines (and other soldiers) who trains at our MMA gyms, they know where they stand....if all they had was training from the military...then they know that they're just White belts and nothing special. Girl Blue Belts submits them most of the time, and certainly will the girl Purples.

You may not like it being labeled as MMA Lite, but that's exactly what it is. If they're "RIFLE MARKSMEN", like you say, then they certainly aren't MMA level fighters. Because it would be crazy to train FULL MMA...risking a ton of injuries.....and having soldiers not being able to perform with back problems, ripped up tendons, concussions, etc.....which are all routine problems with training FULL MMA. And what for, when they've got freakin' M4's with 200+ rounds of ammo on them + grenades + tanks + radio for airstrikes, etc.

This is why MCMAP is MMA Lite...they only gloss over a few things taken from MMA, for fitness and sport. It only takes like 16 months to become a Marine, which includes Boot Camp. That's a ton of things they need to learn and study up for, not just MCMAP chopsocky, if much of it at all. The ones that gets serious with MCMAP are those who likes it or have MA training beforehand, and wants to earn higher ranks for fun/sport. And it's still pretty low level training.

Rarely would any Marines go H2H, if ever, on the battlefield. They'd be dead most of the time. What would cause them to go H2H? Running out of ammo? Even with their sidearm? Many times, they'd surrender rather than run into a hail of 7.62x39mm for a guaranteed death.

How little you know.
 

Tez3

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Martial arts in the military here are sports, for fun. CQB is for business. What the RM Commandos, Paras, etc do isn't classed here as' martial arts'. Bayonet training is still carried out here, many soldiers are trained Close Protection people as well. Military training here takes longer than most countries, soldiers are trained up to the level of a couple of ranks above their own right from recruit and covers everything that martial arts would anyway. The regimental system here also ensures that fighting spirit and confidence are abundant. Besides most of our soldiers learn to fight long before they join up, ask the police :)
 

oftheherd1

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Yet, it is not mma. It has different goals, different techniques and a different mindset.

Now, are some of the same techniques found in mma..... sure. Yet, that doesn't make it mma or mma lite or kali lite, etc. It is a very specific martial system designed for the battlefield as you can clearly see from the quoted post in my previous post.

You are correct.

After my last post, I decided to read a little further. As is often the case, people tend to only see from their MA perspective. That is understandable. Why would someone study an MA they didn't believe in? However, one is best served by knowing disadvantages of their system, and advantages of others. Fewer surprises that way.

But I must admit, I am surprised at those who cannot understand that different fighting/combat objectives will often dictate the teaching and practice of different skills. I sometimes wonder if some who are most adamant about the taught military combat skills being inadequate, don't even believe what they say. If they do, they are incredibly narrowly focused.

As to Drop Bear's "This constant rhetoric of being the best of the best of the best. May get you over the line in a fight. But it is not exactly accurate." comment, perhaps being engaged in training for life or death struggles is different. Perhaps? No. Most of us here trained a martial art because we wanted to. How many have we seen begin and then quit. In the military you don't normally have that option. So it may be necessary to keep bolstering a combat person's confidence. And the Marine Corps from all I have seen, does just that.

Many of you here no doubt do have that confidence in yourself. You do accept being hurt from time to time. If your MA has a sparring component, you do not expect death to be a common part of that. Combat arms face that always.

Drop Bear, in my opinion, your comment "I mean we learned falure is not an option in Mc Map training but they spar. Half of those guys are going to fail." although a clever turn of phrase, is frankly contemptible. What experience do you have that qualifies you to make judgement on training of military combat arms?

And Drop Bear, although you said "I have no issue with Mc Map i think it is a good system. But if it was my head on the block i would recognise its limitations and address them." as I said, all martial arts have advantages and weaknesses. And the Marine Corps initiation of MCMAP is intended to be an improvement over past methods of training. But of course, you wouldn't know that.

I hope I am not being too strong with Drop Bear. It is not my intent. But I simply believe he does not really understand, and I would only seek to clarify things he may not know or understand. Others also.
 

FriedRice

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So yeah we can agree that it is not geared towards training Marines for mma. No instead MCMAP is a weapons based system geared towards training Marines for combat on the battlefield. If individual marines wish to be mma fighters then they should go to an mma gym to improve their skills. Not mma lite or kali lite. Instead it is the Marine Corp Martial Arts Program! ;)

PS
I have marines and army military personnel training with us all the time. Several are deployed right now.

Sounds exactly like MMA Lite, if it's taking most of it's techniques from MMA but not using them at full power. And same goes for the weaponry. A guy who works at Safeway that trains Kali 3x a week for a year, will greatly exceeds the skills of a 1 year Marine when it comes to knife, stick fighting, etc. Thus, Kali Lite. It seems that you're taking this personally somehow, but you're not a Marine though right?
 

FriedRice

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from the Marine Corps Marksmanship program to MCMAP starting with bayonet training, .

Hey, can you tell me which rifle, issued to a Marine, would a bayonet attach to? I'll wait while you Google profusely :)
 
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FriedRice

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I too believe that mma fighters that spar or anyone that spars for that matter will develop a strong mental mindset but most are not training to kill but instead to compete. .

So when a Marine is on the battlefield vs. an ISIS fighter.....both are unarmed, no knives, no rocks around, nothing....they're both facing each other, standing up....how would such a fight to the death usually start if they're 3 feet away from each other?
 

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