MCMAP

That-a-Way

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Hi! Since the last time we spoke I've been "walking the streets" and I run into a guy who teaches self defense. Talking to him he revealed he followed the principles taught at MCMAP (for the on es who don't know, the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program). I bought the book, it was like $2.99 on Kindle, pretty cool.

I went to a couple of lessons and he seems experienced and seems to follow the principles on the book.

What do you think about this? What seems fishy is: how he could have learned this things? He is a MMA Black Belt (not sure which rank), but this only means he knows MMA. How similar is MMA to MCMAP?

Any information will be appreciated. Thanks!
 

Headhunter

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Hi! Since the last time we spoke I've been "walking the streets" and I run into a guy who teaches self defense. Talking to him he revealed he followed the principles taught at MCMAP (for the on es who don't know, the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program). I bought the book, it was like $2.99 on Kindle, pretty cool.

I went to a couple of lessons and he seems experienced and seems to follow the principles on the book.

What do you think about this? What seems fishy is: how he could have learned this things? He is a MMA Black Belt (not sure which rank), but this only means he knows MMA. How similar is MMA to MCMAP?

Any information will be appreciated. Thanks!
He's full of **** there's no such thing as an mma black belt so anyone selling themselves with that shouldn't be taken to seriously
 

Headhunter

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Really? It says here there is such thing MMA Belt Rank
Well there's not trust me. Name any top fighter who calls themselves an mma black belt...none how can you set a syllabus for mma when every singe fighter has a different style. Anyone using it is money grabbing
 
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That-a-Way

That-a-Way

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Well there's not trust me. Name any top fighter who calls themselves an mma black belt...none how can you set a syllabus for mma when every singe fighter has a different style. Anyone using it is money grabbing

Meh that's a shame. I really like MCMAP.
 

Tony Dismukes

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In general, MMA does not follow a belt ranking system, although you can find some rare exceptions. Greg Jackson is a very legit MMA coach who introduced a belt system for his schools a few years back. However those ranks should really be regarded as certifications within Jackson's personal system (formerly "Gaidojutsu", now "Jackson's MMA") rather than MMA in general. The website you linked to shows a rank system presumably used by the Pancrase USA organization, but I can't find any info indicating who might be issuing such ranks or what their qualifications might be.

As far as the MCMAP goes, it does have significant technical overlap with MMA. However, unless the instructor is a U.S. Marine, he won't have qualifications to teach it. Even if he is a Marine, that doesn't mean he earned instructor status in the art. Also, not all of the MCMAP is necessarily appropriate for civilian self-defense.

The guy you're learning from might have legitimate qualifications in something, but he should be honest about what those qualifications are and where he earned them and not try to teach a curriculum if he doesn't have a background in it.
 

Tez3

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Well there's not trust me. Name any top fighter who calls themselves an mma black belt...none how can you set a syllabus for mma when every singe fighter has a different style. Anyone using it is money grabbing

Of course there's no such as a black belt or any other colour for that matter in MMA as a whole, why would there be? Fighters fight for belts, honour money whatever, they don't do belts. As Tony says an individual gym might start up a system. It would most likely be for his non fighting students so they 'earn' something, but it's likely to be a money making thing, not necessarily a bad thing if the instruction is good.

As Headhunter says how can you grade fighters when they each have their own style and employ tactics for fighting depending on who they are fighting. If they can't do the techniques they will lose the fight or worse get hurt quite badly. There really isn't a way to grade them other than on their fight record.

I would take issue with calling Sheldon Marr an Olympian, while he did train with the USA Olympic team he didn't compete in the Olympics. I can't find out who awarded him his 7th Dan grade, perhaps other have more info?
 

Bill Mattocks

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What seems fishy is: how he could have learned this things?

I am a Marine. I know very little about MCMAP, as it came into being long after I had gotten out of the Corps. However, what my Marine friends tell me is that it incorporates a number of the principles one might find in MMA. There is some kicking, some grappling, some punching, some throwing, etc.

I agree with you that it is difficult to understand how a person could be qualified to teach MCMAP unless they are themselves Marines, and even then, I would have some hesitation, because MCMAP 'instructors' are only charged with training fellow Marines, which unless I am mistaken, neither this instructor you speak of nor yourself happen to be. No offense intended.

Even in MCMAP, a 'belt' ranking is to be worn with the uniform, not with a gi or on the street, etc. It has no validity outside of actual military training.

As to ranking in "MMA," I guess that is starting to happen now. I've seen it. I understand some of the concern exhibited by others here; like them perhaps, I have run into more than a couple weirdos who come into the dojo where I train and proclaim that they have advanced belts in "MMA" and "UFC" and other interesting terms that have no basic meaning. In other words, they're all mouth and exhibiting their idiocy. It might impress those who don't train, but no one who trains in any form of authentic martial art is going to be impressed by their made-up titles.

MMA, as you may know, is actually not a stand-alone art by itself. It is a term which means that practitioners incorporate parts of many different arts in their study. They take techniques from BJJ, MT, Judo, and even at times Karate and TKD and use them in ways that best fit the type of fighting they do. And that's great. No one is putting that down or giving the MMA guys a hard time about it. They're terrific people and they're often quite capable and dangerous. No argument there.

But I have not run into any 'real' MMA guys or gals who have called themselves black belts in "MMA" as such. They might hold advanced belts in other styles, often BJJ, but they use their training to advance their work in MMA.

That doesn't mean someone can't invent a style, call it MMA, and proceed to give out belts in it. And it doesn't mean that what they teach is automatically BS. But it is *suspect* even if they are legit training some good techniques and have real ability.

It's like someone telling me they have a black belt in eye doctor. Eh, what? Eye doctors don't have black belts, do they? Now, they might actually be eye doctors, and they might actually know their stuff optomitrically speaking, but I am going to tend to harbor some doubt, just because they're being weird about it. Make sense?

I would definitely take a cautious approach and see what you can *independently* confirm about this MMA Black Belt's credentials. Not what he says, what he can prove. Certificates on the wall and photo ops with seminar big names don't mean much. See what you can find out about his credentialed instructors and take it from there.

It doesn't make what he purports to be teaching invalid - it makes it worthy of further investigation before placing any trust in him.

Just my 2 cents.
 

drop bear

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He's full of **** there's no such thing as an mma black belt so anyone selling themselves with that shouldn't be taken to seriously

There is. Greg jackson does belts. Integrated does belts. Probably other legit belts out there.

But yeah. Rule of thumb. Red flag.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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MCMAP has some techniques and principles in it from MMA but it has incorporated much more and has a broader system including weapons, etc. Very different overall and a different approach overall from MMA.

If he has been a former Marine he might have learned MCMAP. If he is an instructor in it he should have some credentials that he can show you.

Like other people here I know of no MMA ranking system utilizing belts. Could there be some out there... sure. Does that make them rare? As far as I know yes!
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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I think you guys are going very extreme based on the limited knowledge we have. The OP stated he does not know what rank...my bet is that he is at a gym that does belts, or he is a black belt in a style (leading to the not sure which rank comment), and also does MMA. If he was in the marines, he might say that he takes the MCMAP attitude to it (look at the article that @Tez3 shared on a couple threads about krav maga for the 'attitude' idea).

I can't say anythign for certain, as, like I said, we know way too little about this guy to know if there are any red flags are not.
 

drop bear

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Remind me again why we should fret, get upset and angry about how other people in other styles train? :rolleyes:
 

drop bear

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I think you guys are going very extreme based on the limited knowledge we have. The OP stated he does not know what rank...my bet is that he is at a gym that does belts, or he is a black belt in a style (leading to the not sure which rank comment), and also does MMA. If he was in the marines, he might say that he takes the MCMAP attitude to it (look at the article that @Tez3 shared on a couple threads about krav maga for the 'attitude' idea).

I can't say anythign for certain, as, like I said, we know way too little about this guy to know if there are any red flags are not.

MMA coaching and success standard is rated on fight wins though. Not on belts. Which is different to a lot of styles of training.

It is the absence of that information that would make me double check.
 
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That-a-Way

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Thanks for the replies!!

Yeah this is for sure not a Marine. It felt strange that he would teach such a thing. I've been reading the book and there is a lot of stuff about armed situations and how to handle civilian situations peacefully. I assume he doesn't intend to teach us how to use a bayonete. What good would it do?

Even if he was legit, I don't think MCMAP has any value for me as I won't be walking around with an M16 just in case I get jumped...

Still I liked the style, like it tries to combine a bunch of useful things for self defense. I gues it's like Western Krav Maga or something. I think I'm getting closer to my style :)

Can anyone provide information or point me towards arts like this. The ones I know like this are basically:

  1. JKD
  2. MMA
  3. Krav Maga
I also remember from my last post that some of you pointed out that competition arts are not the same as it's self defense variation. It blew my mind to know MT has grabs!! Still I would like something that actually focus on some balanced training, like the ones I mentioned. Thanks!
 

drop bear

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In general, MMA does not follow a belt ranking system, although you can find some rare exceptions. Greg Jackson is a very legit MMA coach who introduced a belt system for his schools a few years back. However those ranks should really be regarded as certifications within Jackson's personal system (formerly "Gaidojutsu", now "Jackson's MMA") rather than MMA in general. The website you linked to shows a rank system presumably used by the Pancrase USA organization, but I can't find any info indicating who might be issuing such ranks or what their qualifications might be.

As far as the MCMAP goes, it does have significant technical overlap with MMA. However, unless the instructor is a U.S. Marine, he won't have qualifications to teach it. Even if he is a Marine, that doesn't mean he earned instructor status in the art. Also, not all of the MCMAP is necessarily appropriate for civilian self-defense.

The guy you're learning from might have legitimate qualifications in something, but he should be honest about what those qualifications are and where he earned them and not try to teach a curriculum if he doesn't have a background in it.

The guys with the sportastic knowledge though. The MMAers BJJers and such dont really struggle with grasping Mc Map.

According to soldiers forums anyway.
 

drop bear

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Thanks for the replies!!

Yeah this is for sure not a Marine. It felt strange that he would teach such a thing. I've been reading the book and there is a lot of stuff about armed situations and how to handle civilian situations peacefully. I assume he doesn't intend to teach us how to use a bayonete. What good would it do?

Even if he was legit, I don't think MCMAP has any value for me as I won't be walking around with an M16 just in case I get jumped...

Still I liked the style, like it tries to combine a bunch of useful things for self defense. I gues it's like Western Krav Maga or something. I think I'm getting closer to my style :)

Can anyone provide information or point me towards arts like this. The ones I know like this are basically:

  1. JKD
  2. MMA
  3. Krav Maga
I also remember from my last post that some of you pointed out that competition arts are not the same as it's self defense variation. It blew my mind to know MT has grabs!! Still I would like something that actually focus on some balanced training, like the ones I mentioned. Thanks!

Just do the MMA. It will give you the basic high percentage starter set you are looking for.

And then you can just go schoolyard from there.
 

hoshin1600

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i didnt read all the posts so forgive me if i am repeating something already said. i am not familiar with MCMAP . i have heard of MACP.
modern army combative program. which is based on BJJ. created by Matt Larsen. you can youtube it and they have competitions similar to MMA.
 

Tony Dismukes

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i didnt read all the posts so forgive me if i am repeating something already said. i am not familiar with MCMAP . i have heard of MACP.
modern army combative program. which is based on BJJ. created by Matt Larsen. you can youtube it and they have competitions similar to MMA.
MCMAP is the Marine Corp Martial Arts Program. I believe it has similarities to the MACP, but the Marines created their own version so it's not exactly the same.
 

Bill Mattocks

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MCMAP is the Marine Corp Martial Arts Program. I believe it has similarities to the MACP, but the Marines created their own version so it's not exactly the same.

Trust me, it's not even close to the same. Marines lack social graces and are rather proud of that fact. We break things and kill people and it shows in our training. No offense to the Army, they try hard.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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Thanks for the replies!!

Yeah this is for sure not a Marine. It felt strange that he would teach such a thing. I've been reading the book and there is a lot of stuff about armed situations and how to handle civilian situations peacefully. I assume he doesn't intend to teach us how to use a bayonete. What good would it do?

Even if he was legit, I don't think MCMAP has any value for me as I won't be walking around with an M16 just in case I get jumped...

Still I liked the style, like it tries to combine a bunch of useful things for self defense. I gues it's like Western Krav Maga or something. I think I'm getting closer to my style :)

Can anyone provide information or point me towards arts like this. The ones I know like this are basically:

  1. JKD
  2. MMA
  3. Krav Maga
I also remember from my last post that some of you pointed out that competition arts are not the same as it's self defense variation. It blew my mind to know MT has grabs!! Still I would like something that actually focus on some balanced training, like the ones I mentioned. Thanks!

I would not categorize MMA with JKD or Krav Maga. Very different approaches even if there is some bleed over in technique. MMA is a competitive based and specifically cage fighting based. Whereas JKD, Krav Maga, MCMAP, IRT, Kali, FMA, Kajukenbo, etc. would all be geared towards violence outside of a cage and or competitive environment. That does not mean that combat sports cannot be effective on the street or for personal protection it just may not be the driving force behind their methodology.
 

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