Mastery of a bad weapon vs untrained or basic training using far superior weapons

[drop bear]

OK. Sword vs spear.

In theory the spear has the advantage because you have to get past the long stabby thing to use your exceptional sword skill.

 

[Danny T]

Oh, I agree Tez. I'm just showing his not using the context as written by MacYoung. As for advancing understanding or even gaining some understanding I'm not quite certain I am wanting.

 

[drop bear]

Cite? I've never encountered a RBSD instructor claiming that a knife was an ineffective weapon

I will say it. I taught rsbd for a year.

In your traditional 10 second rbsd fight a knife may not finish a guy in that time.

So if I go knife on knife. I am happily shanking the guy. He is happily shanking me. Nobody wins.

I hit the guy with a brick. He drops and I get less shanked.

No outcomes being absolute of course.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Btw I like RPG....rocket propelled grenades, beats knives, swords and idiots no problem

As always, range makes a big difference. If I'm two feet away from my opponent, I'd much rather have a knife.

*Yes, I know you were playing with "RPG" (Role Playing Game) vs "RPG" (Rocket Propelled Grenade), but you just gave me a chance to reiterate one of my points from earlier.

 

[Tez3]

Always good to be as far away from the enemy/attacker as possible, that's why I joined the RAF, that and the fact it sends the officers off to fight!

I think the OP would do well to remember this is an actual, proper, hands on martial arts site and not one where we pretend to train or fight. This is for people that get real bruises, sprain and strains not pretend ones they can switch off.

 

[lklawson]

Can a tool be used as a weapon? Yes. But the point here is that it is ALWAYS an improvised weapon. As such, it will NEVER be as over-all effective at the task as an item specifically designed as a weapon. Can it still kill? Yes any tool can be abused in this manner. But the design of the tool is not for killing. It lacks the specific modifications necessary to make it a weapon.

I've been saying this for decades and I'm glad I'm not the only one. I have to drag it out again, particularly, when someone start telling me about how awesome some improvised weapon is, usually a ball-point pen.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Okay, I just went to Marc's site and read the page that Orcophile is pulling his quotes from.

As we all suspected, there is nothing there suggesting that knives are ineffective for combat or less deadly than other weapons.

He's offering advice for those who ask about selecting a knife for self-defense and arguing that
a) use of a knife is deadly force and deadly force is not appropriate in most self-defense situations
b) someone who chooses to carry a deadly weapon, such as a knife or gun, has to accept a higher degree of responsibility - for avoiding situations where they may need to use it and for understanding the laws which govern the use of deadly force
c) given that you are hopefully unlikely to be in a situation where you have to kill someone - and if you are, you don't want the police or prosecutors to think you were looking for such a situation - it makes sense to select a knife which is designed as an everyday tool rather than one which is optimized for killing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I suspect that the OP has taken Marc MacYoung's comments out of context or hasn't included the full quote in an attempt to make it sound like he's saying something else. We have no way of knowing from the comments what sort of knife Marc was talking about and in what situation, as Tony said, it seemed as if he was talking about a knife used as a tool rather than a knife that was a weapon.
It's just random quotes, no indications of the subject and just parts ripped from what are obviously longer articles.

That's how I'm looking at it as well. Quotes taken out of context and "one size" fits all assumptions. I can tell by the quote on the knives that Marc was referring to the everyday pocket utility knife and not a Cold Steel 6 inch fixed double blade knife. It would be really difficult to explain to a police officer that a Karambit knife is just a tool. It would be even tougher to demonstrate that it's just a tool.

Yes, I agree. While I'm not an Acolyte of the Church of MacYoung, the guy is not an idiot and I'd be shocked to my core if he was actually intending his quote to be representative of Bowie Knifes & Cinquedeas.

...which is why we need to add a "WTF?!?" rating icon.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

You have my vote for a "WTF" rating icon.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Okay, I just went to Marc's site and read the page that Orcophile is pulling his quotes from.

As we all suspected, there is nothing there suggesting that knives are ineffective for combat or less deadly than other weapons.

He's offering advice for those who ask about selecting a knife for self-defense and arguing that
a) use of a knife is deadly force and deadly force is not appropriate in most self-defense situations
b) someone who chooses to carry a deadly weapon, such as a knife or gun, has to accept a higher degree of responsibility - for avoiding situations where they may need to use it and for understanding the laws which govern the use of deadly force
c) given that you are hopefully unlikely to be in a situation where you have to kill someone - and if you are, you don't want the police or prosecutors to think you were looking for such a situation - it makes sense to select a knife which is designed as an everyday tool rather than one which is optimized for killing.

This makes sense to me. The RPG video game example, just made things really confusing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is the context in which Marc is making is comment about knives
"There's a lot of macho advertising, marketing and internet touching yourself when it comes to 'tactical knives,' 'fighting folders,' and combat blades. This is an extension of the whole 'knife fighting' market and idealizing knife combat that is being pandered by self-proclaimed knife experts. What's worse is they are selling these illegal and dangerous fantasies as -- and I use this term loosely -- self-defense. " From the link that Tony posted.

 

[Tez3]

internet touching yourself

ROFLMAO, oh I do like that expression!

 

[Flying Crane]

Can I PLEASE get a bunny?

 

[Tez3]

I don't think the OP is trolling but I really do think he's mistaken the tenor of this site.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't think the OP is trolling but I really do think he's mistaken the tenor of this site.

I don't think he's trolling either, but I do think he's deeply confused about a lot of things.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't think the OP is trolling but I really do think he's mistaken the tenor of this site.

I'm going to say that the OP doesn't do any type of martial arts or train with any weapons. I just can't see how someone can train in a martial art or weapons and still walk away with the perceptions that the OP has on various things that are compared to anime, video games, and movies.

To me that's just not possible. All it takes is one good free sparring match to make it clear that there is a huge difference between reality and what we see in the movies.

 

[JP3]

Not about the game universe, but in the real universe I made a conscious decision, after quite a bit of thought, to deliberately not train to actually fight with a weapon. I did this because I figured that since Mr. Murphy (of Murphy's Law fame) was so in tune with my life, that anytime I was attacked for real, in my home, on the street, at work, etc., inevitably whatever weapon I had trained with, yes, even a small palm knife, would, of course, be on the other side of the room when Bad Guy entered. So, unarmed it is.

Does it make me better able to deal with an armed opponent? Probably not, but I'm not going to hesitate for the typical time going, "Oh, hell no..."

 

[lklawson]

I will say it. I taught rsbd for a year.

In your traditional 10 second rbsd fight a knife may not finish a guy in that time.

I tell my students this all the dang time: "Dying ain't dead! Bleeding out takes time!"

So if I go knife on knife. I am happily shanking the guy. He is happily shanking me. Nobody wins.

I hit the guy with a brick. He drops and I get less shanked.

No outcomes being absolute of course.

Stabbing someone with a knife is easy. Doing so while not getting stabbed in return is hard. That's why you need actual instruction and practice to learn how to do it. And, it gets exponentially harder when the other guy doesn't realize there's "rules" to a knife fight (that you want to survive). There are just some things you don't do if you want to live. Newbies to the knife are constantly doing things which get both people "killed." Most often they're willing (eager, even!) to close measure to too close a range and make attacks with no regard to their own safety. They don't understand yet that it's more important to not get stabbed than it is to stab (or cut, of course). It makes the whole thing vastly harder for the trained guy who knows he has to maintain range, control the measure and tempo, and "control the fight." The knife fighting equivalent of boxing's "Ring Generalship" is an order of magnitude more important and it's not something that most people think about. It sure as heck isn't something that gets represented in any form of entertainment media (because it's boring to watch and not easy for the viewer to interpret; both of which are anathema to entertainment based fighting scenes).

Dying ain't dead and idiots with a knife get both people killed.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[JowGaWolf]

Unlike a person with a knife, a trained person with a knife is aiming for all the good spots.

 

[frank raud]

Does Marc MacYoung or other violence professionals recommend carrying a spear as a superior weapon, or is it a moo point?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Does Marc MacYoung or other violence professionals recommend carrying a spear as a superior weapon, or is it a moo point?

You can change spear to staff and then it becomes more realistic. I see people who walk for exercise, carry staffs all the time. It's probably more to defend against dogs, but I'm sure they wouldn't have any problem with swinging it at a person. . Martial Art weapons aren't as easy as pointing a gun an shooting. The majority of martial art weapons are only really deadly if a person knows how to use them, other than that the person is most likely to hurt themselves.

just saying lol.