Master's relationship to/arrangement with their student's school

[skribs]

I am back in my hometown for a few weeks to test for my 4th degree black belt in TKD, with the ultimate goal of heading back to my new home and opening a school. I didn't really connect with any of the schools in my area. I've recently reconnected with my old Master, and so I am testing under him. For those who've known me for a while on this forum, you'll know that tensions were high between me and him when I moved, but it seems time has healed those wounds.

We were talking today about the relationship between his school and my future school. He and I have approached this conversation from a very different perspective.

• My expectations were that I would remain his student, and I would go to him for training and advice (and likely have a personal financial commitment involved), but that my business would be my own. There would be a separation of him as my Master, but my school would be my own and I would be the Master of my school.
• His expectations were that my school would be a branch of his, even if I have a different name and curriculum. His idea was that he would collect a portion of the testing fees that students pay, but would then provide me with the material awards from testing (such as belts and certificates).

I've pushed back on his expectations, but he also has pushed back on mine. I know he wants to have a business relationship. I do see the benefit of having him as a resource. I also very much want to stand or fall on my own merits and shortcomings. He told me that after talking to me, he would rethink the business relationship, and asked that I do the same. Like I said, I know that in any arrangement, there will be some financial commitment on my part. I'm just hoping for an option that's fair to both of us, but also allows me to maintain full control over my school and the way it operates.

He did talk about being affiliated, but officially I would be affiliated with Kukkiwon, and not necessarily with his school. (I know I've been against it in the past, but I do think overall it's the better choice for now, especially now that I have an opportunity to get my 4th degree).

I'm curious for anyone else who has been in a similar situation, or at least who has looked into it. What is a common arrangement between the owner of a school and their Master before them? If I am able to handle the items he was discussing myself (such as providing my own certificates and belts), what would be a good method to maintain a business relationship or mentor relationship with him, that's fair to both of us?

I'm giving it some thought myself, but I'm open to ideas that others may have, or lessons learned from experiences others may have had.

 

[skribs]

To clarify: my biggest issue with his proposal is twofold:

1. I do not want to be a branch of his school, but to truly stand on my own. I want him as a resource, not a stakeholder.
2. I do not think his plan makes much logistical sense. For one, I'm halfway across the country from him, so I don't think it makes sense for him to be the materials middleman for me. For another, black belt testing can be quite expensive (and also often has a lot of material items), so that could be problematic for my students if this results in huge testing fees, or problematic for my Master if the material costs he's providing exceed the portion of the testing fees he's collecting.

 

[_Simon_]

All the very best for your 4th degree test skribs

 

[Yokozuna514]

Good luck on your new venture, Skribs. You are right to take the time to think about this arrangement and how you want it to work for YOU. One thing to remember is that nothing when it comes to these types of arrangements are permanent and can unilaterally be changed at any time. There may be a toll on personal friendships but that door swings both ways.

When it comes to these types of arrangements, some of the questions I ask are:

- What are the benefits of being part of this group ?
- Will they increase my business ? How ?
- Will my students benefit from being in a larger organization ? How ?
- Will I have access to increasing my own knowledge and skill ? How ?
- What are the recurring costs to keep this arrangements ? Are they sustainable ?

I am sure there are others that you and others can think of but these are the basic questions I think of when considering joining a larger group. I can understand that cross marketing each other's dojos makes sense. If the main branch does large seminars where your students can participate and gain further knowledge, that makes sense. If you can continue to increase your own knowledge and skills while grading to higher belts that also makes sense however if the cost of being part of this group exceeds the value than what would be the point of being a branch ? Fees and black belts are supposed to be registered by the head of the association so it is important to cultivate your own contacts there or you may find that when you take your students to a world tournament to compete that they may not be allowed because they were never recognized by the main office.

Good luck

 

[skribs]

Having slept on it, I think part of this may be a miscommunication. When he said "branch", I was thinking of something like my BJJ school, in which my Professor owns two locations, and he has a salary for the coaches that run the second location. That's a "branch" to me. But looking contextually, I think more that he's trying to start his own association, and that I would be a member of that association, which makes a lot more sense.

- What are the benefits of being part of this group ?
- Will they increase my business ? How ?
- Will my students benefit from being in a larger organization ? How ?
- Will I have access to increasing my own knowledge and skill ? How ?
- What are the recurring costs to keep this arrangements ? Are they sustainable ?

I have been going through this. I do believe his arrangement mostly works for these questions. I think the biggest benefit to me is in getting started. If I have him helping with the business side of things (i.e. giving me contacts for accounting, law, insurance, materials, etc.) that can be a huge benefit off the bat. His payment model actually works fairly well, because the costs are backloaded. I wouldn't be paying him much up front, but I would be paying more once I have a lot of students testing. And if the certificate is from his association, then it makes sense the way he would be providing it.

I also made my profit analysis based on tuition fees only and not on testing fees or merchandise, so this wouldn't necessarily eat into my expectations.

I do want to talk to him about black belt testing and see how that would work.

Fees and black belts are supposed to be registered by the head of the association so it is important to cultivate your own contacts there or you may find that when you take your students to a world tournament to compete that they may not be allowed because they were never recognized by the main office.

I would definitely do my due diligence to make sure this is done. However, there's a couple of caveats here:

1. The organization has no official recognition of color belt ranks, and does not collect fees or issue official ranking for color belt testings.
2. There are additional costs to black belt testing other than the registration with the organization. This includes physical items (such as the belt and a new uniform), as well as covering the costs of the boards.

I will need to talk to him about how I plan on running things, and see exactly how the fees would work for black belt testing. He may want a different arrangement when he finds out I'm planning to have fewer tests per student than he is.

One thing to remember is that nothing when it comes to these types of arrangements are permanent and can unilaterally be changed at any time.

This is true, but if the arrangement is purposefully backloaded to help me hit the ground running, then I don't personally feel comfortable rearranging it when the load starts to come in. He could do a different arrangement that is I pay $X,000 per year to be a part of this organization. That arrangement would be more difficult at the start (before I have students and income), but less difficult later on.

 

[skribs]

I talked to my Master again today.

I said that I misunderstood him, because "branch" made me think that he would be in more control, and what he described was more like I would be a member of his association.

He said that he misunderstood me, because he was thinking I would use his curriculum from A-Z. That if I were, I would be a branch of his (as I understood "branch" to mean), but that because I am developing my own that's different. He told me not to worry about it.

 

[drop bear]

You get him in for seminars. That would be about it.

 

[skribs]

All the very best for your 4th degree test skribs

Thanks. I'm nervous. Most people are optimistic, but there are some things that I'm struggling with to get ready. I had trained 99% of it before I moved, and we covered 95% of it over Zoom recently, but there's some stuff that I haven't quite got yet. Some of it was stuff he didn't have time to show me before I left (part of the reason I left), some of it is stuff that he changes. The stuff we didn't cover over Zoom is stuff that I do need him to show me in person, because I didn't quite understand it over Zoom.

He's optimistic. The other black belts are optimistic. My parents (also black belts) are optimistic. I'm nervous.

You get him in for seminars. That would be about it.

We did discuss that today, and I did discuss wanting him to come for seminars.

My BJJ Professor has had lots of his friends come for seminars, and it's been great. That's one thing I want to carry over.

 

[isshinryuronin]

other black belts are optimistic. My parents (also black belts) are optimistic. I'm nervous.

TMA testing can't be crammed for, especially at higher levels. The knowledge isn't in your brain, but in your body, the result of years of conditioning and muscle memory. If you've trained your body adequately it will respond in kind. The only job your brain has to do is to allow your body to do its job. My experience is that most testing mistakes are mental, so the less involved your brain is, the better. Imagine the test as if it's a demo for junior belts. Just stay controlled and do what you love. I'm optimistic for you as well, but I'll wish you good luck anyway.

 

[drop bear]

Thanks. I'm nervous. Most people are optimistic, but there are some things that I'm struggling with to get ready. I had trained 99% of it before I moved, and we covered 95% of it over Zoom recently, but there's some stuff that I haven't quite got yet. Some of it was stuff he didn't have time to show me before I left (part of the reason I left), some of it is stuff that he changes. The stuff we didn't cover over Zoom is stuff that I do need him to show me in person, because I didn't quite understand it over Zoom.

He's optimistic. The other black belts are optimistic. My parents (also black belts) are optimistic. I'm nervous.

We did discuss that today, and I did discuss wanting him to come for seminars.

My BJJ Professor has had lots of his friends come for seminars, and it's been great. That's one thing I want to carry over.

It's a good money spinner for them. It keeps your club interested and fosters connections with other clubs. Without whatever this franchise thing is.

 

[skribs]

TMA testing can't be crammed for, especially at higher levels. The knowledge isn't in your brain, but in your body, the result of years of conditioning and muscle memory. If you've trained your body adequately it will respond in kind. The only job your brain has to do is to allow your body to do its job. My experience is that most testing mistakes are mental, so the less involved your brain is, the better. Imagine the test as if it's a demo for junior belts. Just stay controlled and do what you love. I'm optimistic for you as well, but I'll wish you good luck anyway.

My Master's test have to be crammed for, because the specific details he's looking for change over time. (This starts to happen around 2nd degree, and everyone who is 2nd or 3rd notices it). Like I said, there's some material we're only just now getting to, or that I'm just now getting the new changes and details for.

 

[isshinryuronin]

My Master's test have to be crammed for, because the specific details he's looking for change over time. (This starts to happen around 2nd degree, and everyone who is 2nd or 3rd notices it). Like I said, there's some material we're only just now getting to, or that I'm just now getting the new changes and details for.

The following doesn't take into account getting new material just before a test, but some may apply to your predicament. If not, take it as a general commentary on current TMA.

It may be a widespread problem, IMO, in not only TKD, but other styles and individual schools where too much emphasis is placed on "what" is being done and the way it looks rather than "how." Kung fu Wang brought up "secret" techniques in another thread yesterday and that the real secret is what makes it work. I think this comes down to being less infatuated with surface things and more with the fundamental principles that are the core of an art. The further one goes back into TMA history the less important minor points become. Old clips of Okinawan masters (8th-10th degrees) often show a disregard for perfect stances. It just wasn't important to them, as long as it worked.

Rather than worrying whether a kata punch goes to the stomach or chest, for example, more weight should be given to how the punch was delivered. Does the exact angle of an arm or foot really matter in that particular execution or position of a martial technique, or is it merely a convention of what is thought to look good because someone thinks that's the way it should be? There's a saying, "Don't look at a man's clothes, but his character." I think one should take care of how they look, but it can be taken too far to the point of narcissism. I think the same can be applied to modern TMA. Details are good, but one can get too wrapped up in them to the expense of more fundamental things, the over sharpening of the knife concept.

My style's kata have undergone some minor changes as Master Shimabuku was refining his art so some schools may do a mid-punch instead of a high one or a backhand knife hand strike instead of an open hand mid-block. Doing one instead of the other may be negatively noted by an instructor, but some will not be a too much of a stickler and give more consideration to how well it was executed.

Regardless of what style or school one teaches at, this issue should at least be considered in their TMA philosophy as much as their style hierarchy allows.

 

[skribs]

The following doesn't take into account getting new material just before a test, but some may apply to your predicament. If not, take it as a general commentary on current TMA.

It may be a widespread problem, IMO, in not only TKD, but other styles and individual schools where too much emphasis is placed on "what" is being done and the way it looks rather than "how." Kung fu Wang brought up "secret" techniques in another thread yesterday and that the real secret is what makes it work. I think this comes down to being less infatuated with surface things and more with the fundamental principles that are the core of an art. The further one goes back into TMA history the less important minor points become. Old clips of Okinawan masters (8th-10th degrees) often show a disregard for perfect stances. It just wasn't important to them, as long as it worked.

Rather than worrying whether a kata punch goes to the stomach or chest, for example, more weight should be given to how the punch was delivered. Does the exact angle of an arm or foot really matter in that particular execution or position of a martial technique, or is it merely a convention of what is thought to look good because someone thinks that's the way it should be? There's a saying, "Don't look at a man's clothes, but his character." I think one should take care of how they look, but it can be taken too far to the point of narcissism. I think the same can be applied to modern TMA. Details are good, but one can get too wrapped up in them to the expense of more fundamental things, the over sharpening of the knife concept.

My style's kata have undergone some minor changes as Master Shimabuku was refining his art so some schools may do a mid-punch instead of a high one or a backhand knife hand strike instead of an open hand mid-block. Doing one instead of the other may be negatively noted by an instructor, but some will not be a too much of a stickler and give more consideration to how well it was executed.

Regardless of what style or school one teaches at, this issue should at least be considered in their TMA philosophy as much as their style hierarchy allows.

I agree with you, but it also doesn't help me. You're making a good argument for how the teaching and testing should be done, which is in line with how I plan to do teaching and testing when I open my school. Unfortunately, I am learning and testing at my Master's school, and I have to fit into what it is that he is looking for on the test.

One phrase I constantly use while I'm preparing my curriculum is, "I'm less concerned with the 'whats' and more concerned with the 'hows' and 'whys' of the technique." I'm less concerned with my students learning a specific checklist of techniques, combos, and sequences; and more concerned with my students learning the concepts and principles that make them work.

In fact, my plan is to virtually eliminate the curriculum (except for the forms), and instead have a framework that guides what each belt level should be working on. For example, at TKD school like those I have trained at, green belts may have Kicking #1-5:

1. Front kick, double punch
2. Roundhouse kick, chop, spin-chop
3. Step-behind side kick, side kick
4. Roundhouse kick, back kick, hammerfist
5. Step-behind hook kick, reverse punch

In my framework, green belts have Kicking: Head Kicks. Head kicks can include axe kicks and crescent kicks, hook kicks, or head-level versions of the white belt kicks. (White belt kicks are: "body kicks").

Anyone with enough experience in TKD should know what a common body kick is, or a common head kick is. They should easily be able to create drills that meet the topic covered at the belt level. It also makes it easier for black belts to assimilate to my curriculum, because they only need to learn the category folks need to learn at each belt instead of every combination in excruciating detail.

This is based on my own experiences (it takes quite a bit of time to practice everything in my Master's curriculum), complaints others have had at my school (that they can either learn new stuff or improve what they already know, but there's too much in the curriculum to do both), and my experiences in BJJ where the attitude towards teaching technique is much more in line with mine: the hows and whys are more important than the whats.

But again, it doesn't help me for this week, that I need to undergo my Master's test in order to get my next degree, and his test does not share our philosophy.

 

[isshinryuronin]

they only need to learn the category folks need to learn at each belt instead of every combination in excruciating detail.

I like this. Many styles/schools only have to learn specific sequences in kata. Other than that, the instructor is free to make up whatever combination makes sense or that illustrates whatever principle or tactics he wants to teach that day: ABCD, ADCB, DCEB, XYAC, etc. Drilling a changing variety of combos gives the student an ability to be situationally flexible and do things on the fly. It's also less boring and "excruciating." Of course, there are a few combos that are so useful in a fight that should be drilled regularly. On testing, we never knew just what combos were going to be required. At a certain level, n techniques are required, and factor in 20 three or four move combos, that's a lot of possibilities. We were expected to be able to put together any kind of combo on the spot.

IMO, your idea of leaving curriculum as loose as possible, concentrating on categories of techniques, rather than endless specific combos written in stone is good for the student and more fun for the instructor (makes him think a bit and lets him be a little creative, building his skill).

 

[skribs]

I like this. Many styles/schools only have to learn specific sequences in kata. Other than that, the instructor is free to make up whatever combination makes sense or that illustrates whatever principle or tactics he wants to teach that day: ABCD, ADCB, DCEB, XYAC, etc. Drilling a changing variety of combos gives the student an ability to be situationally flexible and do things on the fly. It's also less boring and "excruciating." Of course, there are a few combos that are so useful in a fight that should be drilled regularly. On testing, we never knew just what combos were going to be required. At a certain level, n techniques are required, and factor in 20 three or four move combos, that's a lot of possibilities. We were expected to be able to put together any kind of combo on the spot.

IMO, your idea of leaving curriculum as loose as possible, concentrating on categories of techniques, rather than endless specific combos written in stone is good for the student and more fun for the instructor (makes him think a bit and lets him be a little creative, building his skill).

It also allows me to learn more and bring it into my school (instead of being inflexible if I have a static curriculum).

I think of techniques like Legos. You have the techniques that you're taught, which are like following the Lego instructions. But you also can get creative and come up with your own. I've done this with both TKD kicks and BJJ submissions. (And maybe in some cases I'm discovering things other folks have discovered, but from my perspective it's creative).

I want my students to be able to play with the techniques, and not just play back my techniques.