Masaaki Hatsumi

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nbcdecon

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I have talked with several people students and nonstudents say Hatsumi-san is the man his skill is unreal. But some of his students say he gives black belts out to shame you into training harder. Has anyone heard the same?
 

Bujingodai

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Hatsumi is unreal, some of the techniques he preforms are so subtle and the timing so elite, they almost look childish in difficulty. Hatsumi gives his belts for multiple reasons, I don't think there is a logic behind. He is very abstract in his action and thought, that is the way he wants it.
Analyze it and that makes to total sense to award a BB to someone to give them a slap of reality.
I say this as an ex member of the Bujinkan. But I still believe Hatsumi is the man.
 

Deaf

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Take a look at some of his videos (Hatsumi) and you will see for yourself that the man is "scary" when he moves.

If I understand correctly the practice of handing out ranks in Japan are done with the idea that once you are awarded a rank, you basically train to perform the qualifications of that rank or "grow" into the rank whereas in other parts of the world, it is the opposite, you must first train for the rank and then prove that you are worthy of being awarded that rank.

However I could be wrong with this. But like many, I really could care less about rank! It is all about the individual's skill or taijutsu that counts.

Deaf
 

Klondike93

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Originally posted by Bujingodai

Hatsumi is unreal, some of the techniques he preforms are so subtle and the timing so elite, they almost look childish in difficulty. Hatsumi gives his belts for multiple reasons, I don't think there is a logic behind. He is very abstract in his action and thought, that is the way he wants it.
Analyze it and that makes to total sense to award a BB to someone to give them a slap of reality.
I say this as an ex member of the Bujinkan. But I still believe Hatsumi is the man.

Why are you an ex-member, personal, political........?


:asian:
 

Bujingodai

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Honestly a bit of both. I was not getting what I desired from class, and yes the politics were getting a little silly at times. It seems to vary area to area though.
 
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Shadow Hunter

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Hatsumi gives out rank when he is short of cash.

Nothing more.
 
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Shadow Hunter

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It is true. Don't reject the truth just because you do not want to believe it.

Everyone in the Bujinkan I can respect (a very, very small group) says that rank has no meaning. Of course, there are many people who just salivate over the idea of a high rank. Hatsumi takes their cash and sends them away happy. The only people who complain seem to be those who don't like the fact that their ability to impress others is compromised by his very lenient system.

The good practicioners just keep practicing away and don't try to defend what he does or impress others.
 
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Scooter

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Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
Hatsumi gives out rank when he is short of cash.

Nothing more.

If this were the case then why is there no charge for rank above godan? Try to get your facts straight
 
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Shadow Hunter

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Originally posted by Scooter
If this were the case then why is there no charge for rank above godan? Try to get your facts straight

But there is.

Ask an honest person who holds such a rank.

And don't argue with people who know more than you.
 
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Pyros

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people who know more than you

Then you probaby know that Hatsumi is a rich man from his stock market dealings, so he isn't that often "short of cash".

About Bujinkan rank, up till 4. dan Hatsumi blindly believes his 5. dan and above students. If some 5. dan says someone is 1. dan, Hatsumi honors it without guestion. But 5. dan and above are strictly controlled by Hatsumi. So there can be 4. dans who are lousy and who are expert, all up to their instructors, but 5. dan and above are quality controlled by Hatsumi. This is his way of compromising for such a large organization, without going into a strict "dead" belt-to-belt rank requirement syllabus.

:asian:
 
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Scooter

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Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
But there is.

Ask an honest person who holds such a rank.

And don't argue with people who know more than you.

NO, there isn't. Perhaps you should try talking to sensei!

And out of curiousity, what makes you think you know more than me (or anyone else on here)?
 
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Shadow Hunter

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Originally posted by Scooter
NO, there isn't. Perhaps you should try talking to sensei!

And out of curiousity, what makes you think you know more than me (or anyone else on here)?

Because you don't seem to know anything. Ever hear of Alex Mordine? Read his piece on line and you will get confirmation that Hatsumi pockets money from every rank he gives. I will accept your apology when you are ready to make it.

But 5. dan and above are strictly controlled by Hatsumi. So there can be 4. dans who are lousy and who are expert, all up to their instructors, but 5. dan and above are quality controlled by Hatsumi.

This has got to be joke, right? The number of high ranking incompetents in the Bujinkan is a discusion even among Bujinkan members. There are so many bozos with high ranks that Bujinkan members try to explain it away by saying that it is part of some sort of strategy by Hatsumi. But the fact remains, you can be lousy and the same rank as someone much better than yourself.
 

heretic888

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Hatsumi gives out rank when he is short of cash.

*snicker snicker ralph*

And you would know... how??

It is true. Don't reject the truth just because you do not want to believe it.

One could say the same to you. Given your biased and unsupported rantings under the "Ninja History" thread, and your unsupported comments on this thread, you obviously have a chip on your shoulder regarding the Bujinkan. Deal with it in the privacy of your own home. Not here.

Everyone in the Bujinkan I can respect (a very, very small group) says that rank has no meaning.

Such as??

The only people who complain seem to be those who don't like the fact that their ability to impress others is compromised by his very lenient system.

You know, its easy to claim authority based on nameless sources. Unless you start attaching names to your rather outlandish claims, don't expect anyone to start taking you seriously.

The good practicioners just keep practicing away and don't try to defend what he does or impress others.

This just keeps getting funnier.

If this were the case then why is there no charge for rank above godan? Try to get your facts straight

Ditto.

But there is.

Ask an honest person who holds such a rank.

I suggest you do a little more research, friend. :shrug:

And don't argue with people who know more than you.

Comedy. :rofl:

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

Agreed.

Because you don't seem to know anything.

And you do?? :shrug:

Ever hear of Alex Mordine? Read his piece on line and you will get confirmation that Hatsumi pockets money from every rank he gives.

Wasn't this the guy that achieved a judan in 10 years, thinks a martial art isn't "kosher" unless its been in the UFC, and thinks the Bujinkan is spiritually "empty" because it isn't a Christian organization???

Heh. Sounds a lot like Robert Bussey to me.....

I will accept your apology when you are ready to make it.

Oh boy, now this is starting to get out of hand. Listen, pal, you think you have the "inside scoop" based on one guy?? What about the 1000+ shidoshi in the Bujinkan that would disagree with your source?? Not to mention the various shihan??

Somebody should write this stuff down and make a fortune in a joke book. :shrug:

This has got to be joke, right? The number of high ranking incompetents in the Bujinkan is a discusion even among Bujinkan members.

Not outside the internet.

There are so many bozos with high ranks that Bujinkan members try to explain it away by saying that it is part of some sort of strategy by Hatsumi.

Who says it isn't?? Most of Hatsumi-soke strategies strike me as very Darwinian in nature...

But the fact remains, you can be lousy and the same rank as someone much better than yourself.

The same could be said for any martial art system. Rank means very little.
 
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Scooter

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Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
Because you don't seem to know anything. Ever hear of Alex Mordine? Read his piece on line and you will get confirmation that Hatsumi pockets money from every rank he gives. I will accept your apology when you are ready to make it.

I don't know anything.....hmmm So what makes you an athority on the Bujinkan and its inner workings? What rank do you hold?
Alex Mordine, yes, I've heard of him, no I don't think much of him.
I know first hand that there is no charge for rank over godan, from soke's mouth. As far as my "apology", perhaps you should wake up and go do some training of your own instead of trying to tell other people how their system works. It's very easy to post false claims on the internet when you don't state who you are or what you know...don't expect anyone to take you too seriously.
 
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Shadow Hunter

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I'll just remind all the Bujinkan members of what Arnisador said,

[/B][/QUOTE]
Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

Originally posted by heretic888
*snicker snicker ralph*

And you would know... how??

Scared you, did I? Well it is common knowedge. Everyone gives so meany excuses as to why there are bozos running around with high ranks, the simplest reason is that Hatsumi pockets more than 200 dollars American with every dan rank given.



Originally posted by heretic888
One could say the same to you. Given your biased and unsupported rantings under the "Ninja History" thread, and your unsupported comments on this thread, you obviously have a chip on your shoulder regarding the Bujinkan. Deal with it in the privacy of your own home. Not here.

And how is telling the truth "having a chip on my shoulder?" It seems that you find it much easier to try to discount me rather than deal with the truth I am telling.

Originally posted by heretic888
Such as??

I don't want to embarass them by giving their names.


Originally posted by heretic888
You know, its easy to claim authority based on nameless sources. Unless you start attaching names to your rather outlandish claims, don't expect anyone to start taking you seriously.

But I did and you just ignored it and started to attack the source in an ad hominum attack.

Originally posted by heretic888
I suggest you do a little more research, friend. :shrug:

Oh I have. I know a few people with ranks above fifth and they can confirm the fact that they had to pay for their ranks above fifth.

How about you go out and ask someone above fifth dan before you throw more insults around?


Originally posted by heretic888
Comedy. :rofl:

Again, you don't seem to be able to deal with what I say, so you make the kind of comments above.



Originally posted by heretic888
Wasn't this the guy that achieved a judan in 10 years, thinks a martial art isn't "kosher" unless its been in the UFC, and thinks the Bujinkan is spiritually "empty" because it isn't a Christian organization???

And how does this have to do with the fact that in an on line interview he confirms that Hatsumi makes people above fifth dan pay for ranks and that he essentially sells them?

Trying to discredit the source of bad news is not an honorable tactic. Alex Mordine achieved high rank in the Bujinkan and can confirm that he paid for his ranks. Live wtih it instead of attacking me.



Originally posted by heretic888
Oh boy, now this is starting to get out of hand. Listen, pal, you think you have the "inside scoop" based on one guy?? What about the 1000+ shidoshi in the Bujinkan that would disagree with your source?? Not to mention the various shihan??

Somebody should write this stuff down and make a fortune in a joke book. :shrug:


And who said I was just going off of one guy? How about you ask one of those people who holds rank above fifth and see what they say? I gave a source, I can name other names, but you don't seem to be willing to accept the truth. You only seem eager to attack the bearer of unpleasent truth.


Originally posted by heretic888
Not outside the internet.

Yes, outside the internet. I have heard Japanese teachers have a good laugh over all the tenth dans in the Bujinkan.



Originally posted by heretic888
Who says it isn't?? Most of Hatsumi-soke strategies strike me as very Darwinian in nature...

Or a good source of cash. I am not saying that he is raping the students over rank. They are the ones supplying the KY jelly. But the logical conclusion is that Hatsumi gives out ranks to eager students for pocket change.



Originally posted by heretic888
The same could be said for any martial art system. Rank means very little.

Have you bothered checking into every single martial art? Some arts take their ranking seriously. I personally do not put too much importance on it. In some systems you will find logical, centralized means of attaching rank. A second dan in such an art will know less than a 7th dan in terms of techniques and how well to do them. In the Bujinkan, the second dan may be better in every respect to the seventh dan, but just never attracted Hatsumi's attention when he needed some cash.
 

Bujingodai

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Being a member of the Bujinkan andan independent org I will chime in with my slightly uneducated opinion.

First off both parties here have good points and way broad allegations at the same time.

To state that the only poor practitioners in the Kan are online is wrong.
Also by making a point that Mordine got his Judan in less than 10 years only points the finger back at the Kan. I will assure you that I know of some who have recievied it in less. Also the rest of the martial arts community finds it pretty funny.

This brings up the point of Hatsumis "anarchistic" grading template. It is a lot of doublespeak. People make comments of the way he does it and rank meaning nothing etc etc. Yet focus is placed on rank. Be honest, who do you take more seriously. A Hachidan or a Shodan. Yet I have met lots of high rankers with little skill, IMO

Now Mordine was a putz with that article. Just flat out disrespectful IMO again.

The fact is that even though all the independent orgs may be "fake" The Bujinkan has lost its hold on quality assurance. Period, but again this is told by saying that Hatsumi allowing us to weed out the crap ourselves.

It is obvious by the # of high ranks vs other arts. And that does speak volumes makes an issue.

Now I do disagree with Hatsumi ranking for cash. I think there are other motives there. Hatsumi and the vast majority if Shidoshi et al are incredibly skilled. Wonderful people. Hatsumi is an incredible man that most should be jealous to move like. I love going to Tai Kais etc. I am a proud member, but there are problems that many teachers in the Kan will agree with but not discuss publicly.

I have also never been in an org where so many teachers have such little respect for each other.

Ralph Severe is a Judan, look how much crap he gets
John Wilson is 13th dan and gets dashed on the board all the time
My Shidoshi didn't like his teacher, or his teachers teacher or who I went to get taught.
Think about it.

There is both sides IMHO:soapbox:
 
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