Martial Arts Colony, The Return

[CuongNhuka]

This was an idea too good to leave were it is. So, I'm going to pull the concept up, with new ideas. For those that missed the orginal conversation, I'll bring you up to speed.
The idea is to set up a large training hall, with living area. You can pay a rent (cheaper then in city) to stay. There's a training fee, reduced if you do chores (clean mat, help fix the brocken window, so on).

So, here's about all I've come up with. The Building would be about the size of a college gym, with the floor divided up so that 4-6 seperate classes could go on at the same time. These classes would be kinda like a seminar, but could also be a regular martial arts class. The floor could also be opened to large testing (in Cuong Nhu at Brown belt and abouve, your test could require quite a bit of space, and be testing 10 or more people from around the region).

Thats the main training area. Underneither it is divided into a conditioning room (weights, wooden dummies, makawari, so on) is one third. A combined pantry/cooking/dining area is anouther third. And a library in the remaining third. The library would be a regular 'book library', and a video library of all past seminars.

The top floor area would be living facilties. The east-side area would a parking lot, the west a flower garden (ever see roses at sun set?), and the south a veggy garden.

Question, comments, concerns?

One last thing, how this would work is like a buisness. I open a Martial Arts Colony in Omaha, I raise the money and help fiance the opening the of anouther colony where Exile lives. He pays back the 'loan', and the new flow of cash goes to fiancing one where Steel lives, and so on. Before anyone says "Well, where are you going to get the cash for this? And why do you think people would train there in the first place?" I can pray when it comes to financing the first one. for keeping people coming, simple. offer a regular martial arts class (like Tae Kwon Do, Cuong Nhu, Boxing, and so on), kinda like a YMCA.

 

[theletch1]

One charismatic, megalomaniacal "Soke" and you've go the makings of one hell of a cult compound going on there. It's a great idea in a eutopian sort of way but in the real world you'd eventually have the ATF, FBI, and any other alphabet soup group you can think of on your tail.

 

[Kacey]

What is the purpose of this facility? Given the dimensions you list, there wouldn't be enough living space for very many people; even a triple-court gym (the largest I've seen on a campus) would not provide much space, even if people lived in dorm-like rooms - so if you're trying to develop a colony, you're going to be very short on space for your population. I mean, you discuss as if it were to be a colony - but it sounds more like a college.

Is the idea of running multiple classes simultaneously to allow people to experience multiple arts? If so, then I would suggest making sure that they don't all run on the same schedule, so participants who desired to do so can attend classes on as many different arts as possible - either they all have to meet at a different time each day they met, so people who worked, went to school, or had children could attend different arts' classes, or the rotation would a have to be different (e.g. class A meets M/W/F; class B meets T/Th/Sa, class C meets Su/T/F, etc.) - or the number of arts a particular person could experience would be quite limited, unless they don't want to go to a regularly scheduled class every week.

Would the "colony" be communal in nature? I'm guessing so, from the community kitchen - but most communes strive to be self-sufficient; if this colony is to be self-sufficient, there should be no charge for the classes - rather, the colonists should be doing all of the work (upkeep, repairs, raising food, etc.), along with providing some product or service that brings money into the colony.

If the flower garden is east of the building, wouldn't that rather limit the amount of sunset light it would get?

 

[CuongNhuka]

One charismatic, megalomaniacal "Soke" and you've go the makings of one hell of a cult compound going on there. It's a great idea in a eutopian sort of way but in the real world you'd eventually have the ATF, FBI, and any other alphabet soup group you can think of on your tail.

I'm not a megalomaniac... am I? i certaintly don't call myself a "soke"...

Do you really think that the FBI would come knocking at our doors, I'm really thinking of getting like a Board of Governs to prevent something like that from happening.

 

[Kacey]

I'm not a megalomaniac... am I? i certaintly don't call myself a "soke"...

I do believe (correct me if I'm wrong, Jeff) that that was a general you - in that just one megalomaniac soke - any megalomaniac soke - would be the end of your utopian training colony.

Do you really think that the FBI would come knocking at our doors, I'm really thinking of getting like a Board of Governs to prevent something like that from happening.

Yes, I really do - consider: a commune-like colony that exists for the purpose of training colonists in multiple martial arts, for some unknown purpose. Given the lack of stated purpose, many people will assume that there is some seditious purpose, especially in our suspicious, distrusting, post-9/11 world. Even with a stated purpose, no matter how peaceful, many people will still assume a seditious purpose, and report such a facility to whichever government agency they find most likely to respond.

 

[Cruentus]

Yea... your great idea basically describes a cult. This has been done before, dude.

 

[CuongNhuka]

What is the purpose of this facility? Given the dimensions you list, there wouldn't be enough living space for very many people; even a triple-court gym (the largest I've seen on a campus) would not provide much space, even if people lived in dorm-like rooms - so if you're trying to develop a colony, you're going to be very short on space for your population. I mean, you discuss as if it were to be a colony - but it sounds more like a college.

Is the idea of running multiple classes simultaneously to allow people to experience multiple arts? If so, then I would suggest making sure that they don't all run on the same schedule, so participants who desired to do so can attend classes on as many different arts as possible - either they all have to meet at a different time each day they met, so people who worked, went to school, or had children could attend different arts' classes, or the rotation would a have to be different (e.g. class A meets M/W/F; class B meets T/Th/Sa, class C meets Su/T/F, etc.) - or the number of arts a particular person could experience would be quite limited, unless they don't want to go to a regularly scheduled class every week.

Would the "colony" be communal in nature? I'm guessing so, from the community kitchen - but most communes strive to be self-sufficient; if this colony is to be self-sufficient, there should be no charge for the classes - rather, the colonists should be doing all of the work (upkeep, repairs, raising food, etc.), along with providing some product or service that brings money into the colony.

If the flower garden is east of the building, wouldn't that rather limit the amount of sunset light it would get?

I hate it when people blow holes in my fantasys... anyways...

OK, scrap the gardens. Make them extra living space. Still not much more, but it is better. I also don't imagine many people would be that interested in living in.

I was thinking of haveing it sorta like 2 or 3 regular class at a time, but the weekly schedule is organized so that a student could to two classes, two days a week. With a seminar running before or after the regular classes. The need for the extra space is to allow the seminar proctor having time set up and take down what ever is needed. I imagine that Saturday or Sunday after noon would be when most seminars would be, so on class on those days.

The live in colonists would have to pay for there room and utilities, anyone who doesn't live in pays for instruction. The product or service the live ins offer is chores, teaching, or assisting in teaching.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Yes, I really do - consider: a commune-like colony that exists for the purpose of training colonists in multiple martial arts, for some unknown purpose. Given the lack of stated purpose, many people will assume that there is some seditious purpose, especially in our suspicious, distrusting, post-9/11 world. Even with a stated purpose, no matter how peaceful, many people will still assume a seditious purpose, and report such a facility to whichever government agency they find most likely to respond.

Well, thats just great. Any LEO's know who I would have to contact to get avoid the status of "possible cult or terrorist cell"

And how deos this describe a cult?

 

[Kacey]

Well, thats just great. Any LEO's know who I would have to contact to get avoid the status of "possible cult or terrorist cell"

And how deos this describe a cult?

From Merriam-Webster's website:

Main Entry:cult Pronunciation: \ˈkəlt\ Function:noun Usage:often attributive Etymology:French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate — more at wheelDate:1617 1: formal religious veneration : worship
2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b: the object of such devotion c: a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Look, particularly, at #5 - while this may not be the intent of your colony, that is how it will appear to many people, especially in regard to those who live on the premises, and the amount of time many people - especially those who would attend such a facility - spend on their chosen activities, and on attempting to convince others to join them in said activities.

Also - what is the purpose of training a large number of people to martial disciplines unless the person(s) overseeing the training have some martial intent? I'm in no way saying that's your intent - but that is how many people unfamiliar with the martial arts would see such a colony.

 

[MBuzzy]

Two BIG words here....Startup Capitol. It can definately be done, but the logistics and cost of such a facility would be astronomical. The building alone would cost quite a bit and that is just the real property. Then we have to start thinking about furniture, cookware, martial arts supplies, mats, etc.

And one more possibly bigger word....Liability. Whoever is the official owner of the facility is going to need an insurance policy the size of the HVAC unit that will be required.

After that, we need to start thinking logisitics. Even with the colonists working, you'll still have to pay instructors, support staff, maintenance staff, etc....unless you get A LOT of colonists - in which case your utility bills start going up. Unfortunately, the way to get around that is with huge donations from interested parties - probably the colonists - then you run into the cult problem again.

Now theoretically if one were to pull this off, it would need to be done incrementally. Start off with just a school - POSSIBLY, if you can acquire the right building, with small living quarters above or attached. Enough for 1-4 people. Then start generating capitol and supporters with the school. But then you run into the cult issue.....again. You're basically creating a private militia. So if it were to be done, some lawyers would be necessary up front. Before the first brick is laid, a lot of work will need to be done to be sure you don't violate any laws or run into problems with the community and community opinion.

Now - scrap the live in portion completely and you have a very very large training hall/community center. Still have a kitchen and everything, but eliminate people living there. That would solve a bunch of problems - except for start up capitol and O&M (Operations and Maintenance) capitol. The bigger you get, the larger your costs.

All in all - its a HUGE project to consider.

 

[MBuzzy]

From Merriam-Webster's website:

Also - what is the purpose of training a large number of people to martial disciplines unless the person(s) overseeing the training have some martial intent? I'm in no way saying that's your intent - but that is how many people unfamiliar with the martial arts would see such a colony.

Kacey has an excellent point here - perception is reality. period. Doesn't matter what the intent is, only how it is perceived by the outside world. Unfortunate, but true...in all aspects of life.

 

[Cruentus]

http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/c/chung/

http://www.amazon.com/Herding-Moo-Exploits-Martial-Legend/dp/1412085144

Not saying that this is something that you would try to do; but a "colony" of martial artists with an instructor or "leader" with a capital interest is basically a cult. It has been done before by very destructive groups.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/martial-arts/newbie-guide/section-11.html

 

[arnisador]

Raising the money is the big issue. You'd need to be able to demonstrate that people would pay for this. Where's the market? I don't think it'd be hard to handle the perception problem now that it's on your mind; but if I had the money to finance this, why would it be a better investment for me than opening a McDonalds? That's the key problem here.

Now, if someone currently has an over-sized training hall and wants to keep it a martial arts space but can retrofit the upstairs to a hostel...that's a start.

Things like this generally work only because they're located in Hawaii. It doubles as a vacation--I play martial artist all week while my wife and kids see the sights. If you can only afford to do it in Laughlin, Nevada, it's only going to attract die-hard martial artists with lots of disposable cash on hand and plenty of vacation time.

You need a careful business plan, or a winning lottery ticket! If I was filthy rich I could see myself doing this too. Don't stop dreaming, but be realistic!

 

[CuongNhuka]

Look, particularly, at #5 - while this may not be the intent of your colony, that is how it will appear to many people, especially in regard to those who live on the premises, and the amount of time many people - especially those who would attend such a facility - spend on their chosen activities, and on attempting to convince others to join them in said activities.

Also - what is the purpose of training a large number of people to martial disciplines unless the person(s) overseeing the training have some martial intent? I'm in no way saying that's your intent - but that is how many people unfamiliar with the martial arts would see such a colony.

Alright, I'll give you that, But that could also be used to define almost anything in the Arts.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Now - scrap the live in portion completely and you have a very very large training hall/community center. Still have a kitchen and everything, but eliminate people living there. That would solve a bunch of problems

Then, what would the point of the kitchen be? And then, how would it be a colony? Kinda the point here...

 

[CuongNhuka]

Not saying that this is something that you would try to do; but a "colony" of martial artists with an instructor or "leader" with a capital interest is basically a cult. It has been done before by very destructive groups.

OK, OK, I get it. What if, it was a not for profit org? hu? any better?

 

[CuongNhuka]

Don't stop dreaming, but be realistic!

OK, help me be realistic without crushing my little hopes and dreams like all the other big scarry adults!

 

[MBuzzy]

Then, what would the point of the kitchen be? And then, how would it be a colony? Kinda the point here...

OK, help me be realistic without crushing my little hopes and dreams like all the other big scarry adults!

Hehe, none of us are trying to crush your hopes and dreams! But arnisador is right - a pragmatic point of view is REALLY important here. If this is something you want to do, GO FOR IT! The point that everyone is making is that there is A LOT to think about, it is a massive undertaking with aspects that even most of us haven't considered.

The reason I say to get rid of the living space, but leave in tact the other things is that it eliminates some of your biggest problems. I suggest leaving some of the other stuff, because I can see a need and a market for that. A large open training area with a kitchen, garden, multiple rooms/training spaces......can be multifunctional. Meaning that it doesn't have to be self supporting. You can rent it out and make massive amounts of money. There are plenty of MA organizations that would love a huge training space where many people can gather that has a support structure. For example, in my organization, we rent out a hotel and use a ballroom. The floor is dirty, it isn't set up for MA, the other guests think we're weird, etc. If someone could get a facility that you're talking about for large national events, testings, etc......that would be cool. Plus, a kitchen means you can do your banquets and everything on site, cuts the cost of bringing in a caterer.

Actually - that brings up another point......you want to do this for real, another way to do it without sending up the red flags to the community and government is to add a hostel like Arnisador referred to or a hotel on site or attached.

Something else to think about to get around the public perception is simply the use of the term "colony." It sounds good in theory.....but doesn't sound good to people who don't know your intent.

 

[jks9199]

Well, thats just great. Any LEO's know who I would have to contact to get avoid the status of "possible cult or terrorist cell"

And how deos this describe a cult?

First... The very nature of what you're describing invites scrutiny. It's not really any different on the surface than, say, several white supremacist compounds I know of. You've got people coming together, separating themselves from society, and practicing combat. That's scary to the government and law enforcement.

Second, the set up lends itself to the formation of a destructive cult. Because it's important to understand that cults are not inherently evil, let me explain why I qualify that with destructive. A cult is a group with a shared belief system or ethos, especially, but not exlclusively religious principles. That's all. The Boy Scouts of America is a cult; so are many martial arts systems. So is the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of England, Reform Judaism, and so on. The cults we're worried about are destructive cults; cults that prey upon their members, depriving them of liberty and free thought. Sometimes, the difference is hard to define... but the less open and less willing let you examine other ideas or leave, the more worrisome. On top of that, many destructive cults endorse practices that are destructive to the individual, psychically and emotionally. Many destructive cults are formed around a charismatic leader (think David Koresh or Charles Manson).

Now... are you beginning to see how an idea like this, especially with the quasi-religious/philosophical aspects of many martial arts, could become a breeding ground for a cult? Or at least develop cult-like aspects.

 

[arnisador]

white supremacist compounds[...]destructive cult[...]depriving them of liberty and free thought

This has gotten entirely out of control. Putting a happy face on a business enterprise is always a good idea for many reasons, as is keeping peace with one's neighbors. Surely the sheriff would be out at some time to say "Hi!' and introduce himself while looking around. But I can't believe the argument is "Don't let too many martial artists congregate in one place or a cult will break out!" All this cult talk (and not just the post I quoted) is absurdly exaggerated. New mosques are being constructed in this country, Shaolin temples, boxing gyms, gun clubs, huge martial arts studios...this is is not that hard. And no, the FBI will not come knocking on your door unless you advertise that you're teaching people how to use high-powered explosives.

Now... are you beginning to see how an idea like this, especially with the quasi-religious/philosophical aspects of many martial arts, could become a breeding ground for a cult?

I'm not.

This idea is probably unrealistic on financial grounds without a dedicated backer who has a personal interest in the martial arts, or possibly if one finds a disadvantaged but usable piece of property that can be had, and renovated, very cheaply. But to say "the set up lends itself to the formation of a destructive cult" that would invite federal attention as a terrorism concern is simply uninformed by the facts. Any sufficiently charismatic person can begin a cult anywhere. If the situation was as bad as described here, the FBI would need to double in size just to investigate all the YMCAs in the U.S., which more-or-less meet a similar description (living there, all male, fitness training, etc.).

To say about this idea that "It's not really any different on the surface than, say, several white supremacist compounds" is patently absurd. On the surface, one is for training martial artists and the other is a KKK meeting. Those are not morally equivalent, and law enforcement officers--who frequently train in the martial arts--understand the difference.

I find the level of negativity here, and the dearth of constructive criticism, distressing.