Martial Art Complete System?

[Iron Leopard]

Whoa! Ok you're right. there is no complete martial arts system out there and you could never be proficient at everything. Agreed. but...what is the "most" complete, or what would a relativly complete system include. "complete system" meaning a system that a normal person could learn! lol

 

[kaizasosei]

hi
i basically agree with all the logical things said by everyone. I do however still believe that some systems are more complete than others.
i depends what you consider complete...i would think complete means to have a system that covers all main areas of fighting...no art is automatically supperior to the other, but it is obvious that hapkido incorporates a wider spectrum of movement than aikido. ofcourse the actualy effectiveness of any techniques depends on the skill of the practitioner.
complete could also mean...a complete teaching system.? or complete could mean recovering lost or ancient techniques.
i like the idea mentioned that evolving means not complete and complete would mean stagnant. that is very interesting.
it seems obvious to me that the less weakspots or openings someone has or the better they can respond spiritualy and physically, the more complete of a fighter they are. i think a truly smart fighter would not ignore any system completely and try to learn from all.

j

 

[jks9199]

From the other perspective, sometimes different ranges can and perhaps should be dealt with from very different perspectives. Different techiques, different principles, different ideas, different practices - each one optimized around a specific set of circumstances.

I didn't say that the EXACT same approaches are used at all ranges; I said that they were a unified whole, with common principles underlying them. For example, if moving off of the line of the attack is a fundamental principle within a system -- then, within the limits enforced by the range, I'm going to look for someone to try to move off the line, whether they're grappling or striking. Maybe I'm just slow... But I find it's hard to "reconceptualize" every few feet. I'd much rather use the same basic ideas, with different applications, whatever the range.

I hate this description of the split. Sports training implies training against actual resistance and training in some approximation of reality... which is more than the "reality" arts can say.

...

How did XMA end up as a combative sport? I would call it more a performance systems... no sports fighting training certainly.

Can you articulate a better way? There are people who train for sports, with rules and limits, and the fundamental idea of competition. There are people who train for the real deal, where there are no rules and victory is defined . The methods of their training may or may not be similar; the end goal is definitely not similar. How many boxers practice defending against kicks or grabs? And not all sports train for direct, head-to-head competition. Just like gymnasts don't duel over the right to do their routine, some people specialize their competition in kata/forms, or even "demonstrations."

And XMA? Why did I list it as a "combative sport?" Because it's a sporting competition that has it's roots in the combative or martial arts. Whatever else you (or I) may think of it -- that's what it is.

 

[Rook]

I didn't say that the EXACT same approaches are used at all ranges; I said that they were a unified whole, with common principles underlying them. For example, if moving off of the line of the attack is a fundamental principle within a system -- then, within the limits enforced by the range, I'm going to look for someone to try to move off the line, whether they're grappling or striking. Maybe I'm just slow... But I find it's hard to "reconceptualize" every few feet. I'd much rather use the same basic ideas, with different applications, whatever the range.

I don't fight within any set of fundamental principles. I may attack straight ahead or work angles or lay back and counter depending on my opponent and his or her strengths and weaknesses as I assess them. I may try to stay at kicking range, punching range, go for close fighting or go for the ground depending on the opponent and the situation with no necessarily consistant strategy although I have my personal tendancies. I may come in on an angle and once in close start pushing straight ahead or may come in straight and then start working to move off center.

You'll find that many arts and individuals put a higher emphasis on adjusting to the opponent and the situation than using any set of principles.

Can you articulate a better way?

I will try.

There are people who train for sports, with rules and limits, and the fundamental idea of competition. There are people who train for the real deal, where there are no rules and victory is defined.

I see things as people who train against competitive opponents and people who train against non-competitive opponents. People who can't train within a set of limits can't really train at all. The difference between sport arts and other arts is what type of limits are set in training. In sport arts, certain target areas and tactics are prohibited during training; in non-sport arts, certain levels of contact, speed, and freeform movement are prohibited.

The methods of their training may or may not be similar; the end goal is definitely not similar.

What end goal do you mean?

How many boxers practice defending against kicks or grabs?

That would be normal specialization.

And not all sports train for direct, head-to-head competition. Just like gymnasts don't duel over the right to do their routine, some people specialize their competition in kata/forms, or even "demonstrations."

True.

And XMA? Why did I list it as a "combative sport?" Because it's a sporting competition that has it's roots in the combative or martial arts. Whatever else you (or I) may think of it -- that's what it is.

I don't really think it should be listed as a martial sport so much as a performance... lots of performances have their roots in martial arts or war and are not considered martial arts at all... I think XMA belongs in this category... just as the endzone dance isn't really a sport unto itself.

 

[MJS]

I guess the questions I have from reading this thread are...

A. What do you think kempo is missing to keep it from being the complete martial art? or What cross training could be added to complete it?

Well, I'm not going to speak for KeMpo, but I'll speak for the KeNpo that I do. We're more well rounded than some think. Of course, its always better to know something about an art before someone says that its missing a large number of things. While we do have defenses against grappling type attacks, such as chokes, grabs, etc., actually working from the various positions is something that can always be expanded upon. I've worked some stand-up applications to some techniques on the ground and had some good success. Of course, actually working with someone who does grapple is always a plus. I crosstrain in BJJ and one of our Kenpo Blackbelts is a Purple belt in BJJ under Roy Harris, so thats another plus!!

B. What in your opinion is the most complete art?

Or

C. What would a complete martial art contain?

I addressed these in my original post.

Mike

 

[Brother John]

Very interesting topic.

A simple distinction to make here however.
ALL martial arts systems ARE complete. Complete meaning that they are "all in there", having a beginner portion, an intermediate portion and an advanced portion....with lots of things to continue working on.

I think what you may be wanting to address isn't 'Completeness' as much as:
1. Is it COMPREHENSIVE.
2. Will is suit my needs and wants.

BOTH very good questions and deserving of LOTS of seeking.
But no-one here can walk that road for you. The seeking really should be your own.......and in the end will still have a LOT to do with what you have access to. FOr instance: If you finally decide that Hwarangdo is THE system for you....but there's not a school of it w/in 800 miles of where you live....
well.....then it's just not an option.

Clearly define what it is you are after and what your particular 'tastes' are, as well as what you know you have access too and maybe we all can help you better.

Your Brother
John
PS: You usually have MORE martial arts options that you realize, not every school or worthwhile group advertizes much.
HECK....my favorites were living rooms, back yards and cozy little holes in the wall kind of places.

 

[Iron Leopard]

Thanks Brother John. Nice post and good points!