Marital arts? ..and learning to fight back NOT the same thing?

[still learning]

Hello, As the years go by....one realize to fight back is to learn street fighting or skills that actual combat style of fighting....

That is why? ...boxing skills need to be learn (including getting hits) ....JUDO and wrestling is hands on REAL TRAINING situtions...getting grab or hug is one of the better ways to get actual training...for Judo skills.

Sparring come close if NON-stop with contact ...real fights is fast..furious..NO rules...anything goes...

If you do not do sparring or contact fighing,grabs,throws,hugs,chokes holds and escapes....? or real like training? against real life attacks and MIND SETS and Adrenline training?

You will one day understand the statements made above....

I stop training in our Universal Kempo Karate schools beclose after 12 years...looking back...hardly any sparring...training is strictly base for test ing next rank...NOT much HARD PHYSCIAL TRAINING --running out of breathe style....

When you start to realize...street fighting is different from our training? .....and learning should not be years.....you question the teachings and thoughts of any martial arts..

After trying Judo and watching my kids do both High school wrestling and judo....two thing come out?

One:real training ..get many gains in actual fighing style

Two: Physcial training is the MOST important..more important than any other skill....because if you can out run or out last the enemy...you will win!

Chop a tree down or dig a hole in the sand without stopping for two minutes or more or running FULL SPEED a mile or two....OR sparred againist several people for two minutes without stopping and not be out of breath?

Then you are a true martial artist.....physcial side of it!

Go to any boxing rings....tried just boxing against any boxer? ...you will find out how much skills you really have (boxing only)....

Martial artist do very little in this department of boxing skills,,bob,weave,taking the punches and the endurance...

Just my thoughts and failures here...... ( training a new way) and maybe a new style? ....Aloha

PS: to learn to fight is to fight to learn......
combat soldiers know training is one thing...the real thing is so very different..ask any combat soldier...

Is your training ready for the real streets? .....???? one day you will find the answers..

 

[Empty Hands]

The Marital Arts? Are those the ones with all the submissions and yelling?

 

[MJS]

SL, question for you. You live in Hawaii correct? You hould have your pick of the litter of Kajukenbo schools. Perhaps you should, if you havent already, check one out.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Universal Kempo Professor Martin Buell came from Kajukenpo and taught his version of it...time has change the teaching and thoughts..

He grew up fighing on a reqular basis doing his training...lots of black eyes and bloody noses and mouths,.... today the training is NOT the same...

Martial arts today for the general populations....is so commercialize?

Aloha,

PS: look at all the Black belts today? ....compare them to the seventies...NOT the same! in sense of strenghts and skills...

 

[MA-Caver]

Marital arts ... and learning to fight back ARE the same thing.
The difference between the two is Martial Arts provide discipline and training. Repetitive and advancing training. Remember when it was said a person who achieved a black belt has the equivalent of a college degree?
As a kid I learned how to fight back and learned the hard way. When I started learning Martial Arts I learned how to fight back but to be better at it.
Instead of hitting the guy there... hit him HERE and at this spot. Wow, they go down a lot quicker! And hey, what's this? I'm not hurt as badly or at all. But either way I'm fighting back... only now I have more discipline and training than the other (non MA-ist) guy.

 

[allenjp]

Marital arts ... and learning to fight back ARE the same thing.
The difference between the two is Martial Arts provide discipline and training. Repetitive and advancing training. Remember when it was said a person who achieved a black belt has the equivalent of a college degree?
As a kid I learned how to fight back and learned the hard way. When I started learning Martial Arts I learned how to fight back but to be better at it.
Instead of hitting the guy there... hit him HERE and at this spot. Wow, they go down a lot quicker! And hey, what's this? I'm not hurt as badly or at all. But either way I'm fighting back... only now I have more discipline and training than the other (non MA-ist) guy.

Good post Caver, but to me it sounds like his point is more one of MMA vs. TMA, or aliveness in the training. If so, it's nothing new, same old flame throwers...

 

[hpulley]

Only a real fight can teach you about real fights but usually something you learn from a real fight with no training is that some training would help. Some people throw out all their training in a real fight, others remember it.

Your point about conditioning is very well taken. I watch people box for 12 rounds or do MMA for 3-5 rounds and I'm amazed. 3 minutes of judo is waaaaay too long for me even though I can ride a bike for an hour. It is just a very different use of cardio so I agree that real fighting, even a safe version like judo or jiujitsu can be very beneficial and nothing teaches you to take punches like taking punches so they aren't complete either.

The real problem with most systems, including boxing, is the rules. You can't do this or that when in a real fight those things that are illegal to prevent injury are of course the best things to do. The on purpose exposure of the back of the head in boxing, MMA, bent-over judo styles really bother me as offering the back of your head is an invitation to be knocked out in one blow! Any system which teaches you to offer your head as the other guy can't hit it due to rules is a bad system IMO.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Go to any boxing rings....tried just boxing against any boxer? ...you will find out how much skills you really have (boxing only)....

Martial artist do very little in this department of boxing skills,,bob,weave,taking the punches and the endurance...

First there are different approaches to fighting and training MA that do not agree with boxing and that does not make them ineffective. Really train Xingyiquan hard and I do mean REALLY and you will be a very strong and effective fighter. Same goes for any MA, if you REALLY train it as it was meant to be trained.

Watch a sanshou match from another country and the most effective fighters tend to NOT to bob and weave. The problem with Bobbing and weaving from a CMA perspective is that you do tend to loose your root in there and that leaves you open for an attack.

However they sanshou fighters do train hard and they can certainly take a punch.

But as it has been already said the only way to know if you are effective in a fight is to be in one. And I do not recommend going out looking for them to check.

But I do agree that many Martial Artist today do not train as hard as they should

 

[MJS]

Hello, Universal Kempo Professor Martin Buell came from Kajukenpo and taught his version of it...time has change the teaching and thoughts..

He grew up fighing on a reqular basis doing his training...lots of black eyes and bloody noses and mouths,.... today the training is NOT the same...

Martial arts today for the general populations....is so commercialize?

Aloha,

PS: look at all the Black belts today? ....compare them to the seventies...NOT the same! in sense of strenghts and skills...

So...are you basing ALL Kaju off of one person? You're right...things do change and mostly because of lawsuits....but, like I said, you live in an area known for Kaju...check out some other sources.

 

[tellner]

There are some differences:

• In martial arts you learn to fight back.
• In marital arts you learn to swallow the urge and say "Yes, dear".

In both of them exotic techniques and disciplines from the faraway Orient can be very useful. So can outlandish costumes and mysterious devices.

[Gotta love the OP's typo]

 

[Kacey]

Um... I just have to ask - you did mean martial arts, right? Because you wrote marital arts (note the flip of the t and i) in the title. I mean no offense - it just puts a whole other spin on your post if you actually meant it to be spelled the way you did! :lol:

But to get back to a serious answer, I have to say that I agree with your statement that one won't know how effective - or ineffective - one's training is until it is street tested, and that fitness is a big part of being able to defend oneself. However, I do disagree with this part of your post:

Then you are a true martial artist.....physcial side of it!

I may be misreading your post - and I may get others who respond in opposition - but I feel that the physical side is only part of it. People can get fit in lots of different ways - but to stick with a fitness program, any fitness program, requires dedication that many people lack. To stick with a martial art, likewise, requires dedication that many people lack, or don't understand the need for (the "but I paid my dues and I've been "X" rank for "Z" time - what do you mean I'm not testing?!?!" mentality). While the skills themselves are physical, most people who stick with learning a difficult physical skill will gain something mentally as well - an understanding of perseverance, of goal-setting, and so on, which may or may not be taught explicitly, but which are necessary to continue to improve.

 

[tellner]

Thank you Kacey. I was wondering if my previous post was a little too obscure...

 

[still learning]

Hello, Those arts where actual training (contacts) is one of the better ways to learn fighting skills. ..like Sanshu,kick boxing,Judo,etc...where contact is made..daily

Street fighters...ones who fought in lots of street fights...learn there own version of how to's....experience is one of the better training tools!

Most martial art schools do not let you go at, non-stop. On the streets..it will be that way...NO rules too!

Is your school prepareing you for the real world? Can you fight back NOW! in a unknown enviroment against unknown person or person's??

Are you physcial fit to go the distance! Do high speed runs or dashes for one minute or more....can you do more of these? ...or be winded! ..real fights one use more muscles and adrenline drains your power too! The tensity is different from any training halls.

As rule of tumb? ...most of us will not face this sitution, we may come close to it...at times

Something to think about? .......Aloha (awareness of one training....may save your life)

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

From my experience in fights and fights I have personally witness most "street fighters" do not have proper stance,proper footwork or can throw a proper punch. For the most part they throw Haymakers and may try to tackle you to the floor. If you study any Martial art you will most likely have the advantage in dealing with them. Yes there are no rules in the street and if you are up against a skilled street fighter chances are he has a weapon or will sucker punch you. But thats my experience here in Miami.

 

[Sukerkin]

Is your school prepareing you for the real world? Can you fight back NOW! in a unknown enviroment against unknown person or person's??

Yes it did, thanks for asking.

Three on one and they had weapons (improvised admittedly (broken bottles)). The fight was over in about three seconds and I was running away - that was the only need for cardio fitness I had.

I left behind me one with a broken arm, one with a broken leg and another with, it would seem, a broken will to bother pursuing me.

I obviously have no experience of the background that you are drawing on in you posts on this issue so perhaps that is what is making me fail to see the validity of what you say?

Maybe there are no decent schools of martial arts in Hawaii? Perhaps that would explain why you don't see the value of them?

Or it could be that I'm failing to interpret your words correctly?

 

[MJS]

Well, before I get to the rest of this, let me ask again....have you checked out some of the Kaju schools in your area? I wouldn't base the experience you had at your school, to all of the others.

Hello, Those arts where actual training (contacts) is one of the better ways to learn fighting skills. ..like Sanshu,kick boxing,Judo,etc...where contact is made..daily

Oh, there is contact at my school. My nose is still sore from a hit I took last week.

Street fighters...ones who fought in lots of street fights...learn there own version of how to's....experience is one of the better training tools!

Ok.

Most martial art schools do not let you go at, non-stop. On the streets..it will be that way...NO rules too!

Please tell me that you're not speaking for every school out there are you?? Because unless you know how all of them train, the most you can do is base your opinion on your school. Oh BTW, I prefer the continuous sparring over the stop and go stuff. That is what I do when I train with my teacher.

Is your school prepareing you for the real world? Can you fight back NOW! in a unknown enviroment against unknown person or person's??

Yes. Keep in mind, alot comes down to how you train.

Are you physcial fit to go the distance! Do high speed runs or dashes for one minute or more....can you do more of these? ...or be winded! ..real fights one use more muscles and adrenline drains your power too! The tensity is different from any training halls.

Well, hopefully I won't be fighting someone for 20+ minutes like they do in the cage, but in the event that were to happen....to answer your question, I work out 3x a week and get my cardio in. Am I a marathon runner? Not at all, and I'm not training to be one either.

As rule of tumb? ...most of us will not face this sitution, we may come close to it...at times

Something to think about? .......Aloha (awareness of one training....may save your life)

You're preaching to the choir.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Is your school prepareing you for the real world? Can you fight back NOW! in a unknown enviroment against unknown person or person's??

I have to go with Sukerkin here

Yes it did, thanks for asking.

Three on one and they had weapons (improvised admittedly (broken bottles)). The fight was over in about three seconds and I was running away - that was the only need for cardio fitness I had.

I left behind me one with a broken arm, one with a broken leg and another with, it would seem, a broken will to bother pursuing me.

I obviously have no experience of the background that you are drawing on in you posts on this issue so perhaps that is what is making me fail to see the validity of what you say?

Maybe there are no decent schools of martial arts in Hawaii? Perhaps that would explain why you don't see the value of them?

Or it could be that I'm failing to interpret your words correctly?

Not wanting to get into great detail, it is not a happy memory, but I had a similar experience back in my Jujitsu, TKD days.

As for more recently I had a job that had the wonderful benefit of getting me into all sorts of trouble and I was Taiji then and it to got me through.

 

[Kacey]

Thank you Kacey. I was wondering if my previous post was a little too obscure...

I was typing while you were posting - I didn't actually see your post until just now.

 

[Empty Hands]

I left behind me one with a broken arm, one with a broken leg and another with, it would seem, a broken will to bother pursuing me.

Well done sir. :mst:

Maybe there are no decent schools of martial arts in Hawaii? Perhaps that would explain why you don't see the value of them?

No decent schools in the birthplace of Kenpo? Not bloody likely.

 

[bowser666]

Hello, As the years go by....one realize to fight back is to learn street fighting or skills that actual combat style of fighting....

That is why? ...boxing skills need to be learn (including getting hits) ....JUDO and wrestling is hands on REAL TRAINING situtions...getting grab or hug is one of the better ways to get actual training...for Judo skills.

Sparring come close if NON-stop with contact ...real fights is fast..furious..NO rules...anything goes...

If you do not do sparring or contact fighing,grabs,throws,hugs,chokes holds and escapes....? or real like training? against real life attacks and MIND SETS and Adrenline training?

You will one day understand the statements made above....

I stop training in our Universal Kempo Karate schools beclose after 12 years...looking back...hardly any sparring...training is strictly base for test ing next rank...NOT much HARD PHYSCIAL TRAINING --running out of breathe style....

When you start to realize...street fighting is different from our training? .....and learning should not be years.....you question the teachings and thoughts of any martial arts..

After trying Judo and watching my kids do both High school wrestling and judo....two thing come out?

One:real training ..get many gains in actual fighing style

Two: Physcial training is the MOST important..more important than any other skill....because if you can out run or out last the enemy...you will win!

Chop a tree down or dig a hole in the sand without stopping for two minutes or more or running FULL SPEED a mile or two....OR sparred againist several people for two minutes without stopping and not be out of breath?

Then you are a true martial artist.....physcial side of it!

Go to any boxing rings....tried just boxing against any boxer? ...you will find out how much skills you really have (boxing only)....

Martial artist do very little in this department of boxing skills,,bob,weave,taking the punches and the endurance...

Just my thoughts and failures here...... ( training a new way) and maybe a new style? ....Aloha

PS: to learn to fight is to fight to learn......
combat soldiers know training is one thing...the real thing is so very different..ask any combat soldier...

Is your training ready for the real streets? .....???? one day you will find the answers..

Sounds to me like you just need to find a school that teaches more application rather than material review for a belt test. I find that MA ar actually quite useful for self defense. The one thing that cracks me up though is how everyone seems to make it to be that some guy in a Alley or a few people in a alley are going to have specialized training. HAHA what are the chances of you running into a Pro boxer, or pro MMA fighter, or any kind of a pro in a situation like that. Probably 98% of the general population of the world have no formal training whatsoever. They are simply brawlers. SO if you keep a good head on your shoulders and don't sleep during your training, you will already have an advantage. Stop thinking the what if's............

What if he is a ninja?
What if he is able to bench 400 pounds ?
What if ...... blah blah blah.

Most people don't even knwo the right way to throw a punch, much less block one.